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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Jan 21, 2021 16:42:17 GMT -5
The backstage environment shouldn’t have to go back to being a toxic minefield just so the on-screen product becomes better, though. I think The Bump would be a better podcast if the host and guests both had loaded firearms in their bag and smelled terrible every half hour a man should walk in, turn the lights off and throw a ladder at someone
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Jan 21, 2021 17:24:50 GMT -5
It's interesting. In probably the most nuanced of ways I agree. Not so much I want wrestlers to be super destructive, but I do see a lot of wrestlers trying to look pretty more than portraying a real fight. It happens way more outside of wwe but I feel like wrestlers are so interested in putting on a 30 minute mat classic vs portraying a character that wants the benefits of winning. I’ll go a step further, Taker just described why wrestling has lost mainstream popularity and interest among younger people. The talent care more about how they look, both in terms of appearance and moves in the ring. There’s no selling, no psychology, no respect for what older guys worked so hard to protect. People can disagree with that thinking, up to you, but I think it definitely plays a part in why the genre is so niche now. People are just going to focus on “OMG tOxIc mAsCuLiNiTy!!” but I think there’s something deeper there if you look past that. Wrestling lost popularity because the WWE decided in 2002 it no longer had to adapt or cater to the desires of the audience and began to be written to cater entirely to the whims of it's elderly owner. People began to value quality writing in shows more than ever, but the WWE, no, their reaction to changing trends, declining audiences was to treat celebrities and the stars of yesterday as being considerably more important than making the talent on the roster matter to the audience. You are shoveling a problem with the company who has defined pro wrestling in the eyes of the fans and talent for the past twenty years onto the shoulders of the wrong people, they are told not to sell, they are told to work a standard TV match where nothing matters except working to the hard camera, they're booked in a way where everything they do is treated as fake so what are they meant to do? 'Screw you, Vince, Undertaker said everything old school is better, so I'm going to cut a shoot promo saying what I really believe and then go 15 minutes instead of the 5 alloted, sell like my life depended on it and try to tear the house down even though it'll get cut off during the and break and we'll be disqualified, forced out of the ring one way or another, dressed down backstage then fired on the spot and effectively blackballed from wrestling and television.' They have had countless people who can work the old school style, they call them boring, short, try to make their gimmick that of an insult to old schoo,l wrestling because it gets a spiteful laugh from a 70 year old. You can't blame the talent for that, hell, Taker was there throughout this becoming the state of play, he could have dug his heels in and fought Vince's bad booking and actually helped younger talent, going to bat for them to have creative freedom rather than getting them to buy him drinks or fired whenever they got on his bad side.
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Post by eJm on Jan 21, 2021 17:27:37 GMT -5
Just putting this here. Possibly unrelated.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jan 21, 2021 17:29:59 GMT -5
Just putting this here. Possibly unrelated. “Last Of A Dying Breed” indeed... He was killing everyone off.
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Post by Jaws the Shark on Jan 21, 2021 17:38:34 GMT -5
I’ll go a step further, Taker just described why wrestling has lost mainstream popularity and interest among younger people. The talent care more about how they look, both in terms of appearance and moves in the ring. There’s no selling, no psychology, no respect for what older guys worked so hard to protect. People can disagree with that thinking, up to you, but I think it definitely plays a part in why the genre is so niche now. People are just going to focus on “OMG tOxIc mAsCuLiNiTy!!” but I think there’s something deeper there if you look past that. I don't think lack of respect and lack of psychology are an issue, to be honest, these are criticisms that have been leveled at wrestling and wrestlers for decades. Lou Thesz and Karl Gotch thought Harley Race was making wrestling a joke in the seventies. Wrestling's lack of relevance in the mainstream now is a complicated thing and a lot of it is down to how pop culture has changed in the 21st century, but the crux of it is that wrestling has no relevance to contemporary pop culture anymore, there's nothing in the industry that latches onto trends or that is really identifiable for "young" fans. Forever clinging to respect for tradition and the deification of "legends" kind of has the opposite effect, and makes wrestling even more irrelevant.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2021 17:46:34 GMT -5
There's thousands upon thousands of tv channels to choose from, incredibly life-like video games, blockbuster movies being released like clockwork, and basically entire lives being enacted on the Internet. The fact that so many alternatives exist to siphon away from Wrestling's popularity is never adequately addressed. It's not that men are too pretty. Jesus. And you know who the biggest star in the world is and arguably the biggest wrestling figure since Hogan? Guy has literally been declared the sexiest man alive at one point.
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Allie Kitsune
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Always Feelin' Foxy.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 21, 2021 17:59:07 GMT -5
I think that he’s just nostalgic for a bygone era more than anything. Most every generation claims that men were men in their era, but in reality people are pretty much the same just the times change. I'm generously taking it like that. More "Yeah today the guys are smarter and healthier than we were, but I liked it back then" kinda vibe. I mean, it'd be nice if one of them would at least say something like "Yeah, there's nothing wrong with today's locker room, I'd just like it if people would stop incessantly shitting on what I put up with in my day." I get that that STILL would sound bad to plenty of people, but at least it'd be an attempt at diplomacy there.
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Post by Jaws the Shark on Jan 21, 2021 18:03:50 GMT -5
There's thousands upon thousands of tv channels to choose from, incredibly life-like video games, blockbuster movies being released like clockwork, and basically entire lives being enacted on the Internet. The fact that so many alternatives exist to siphon away from Wrestling's popularity is never adequately addressed. It's not that men are too pretty. Jesus. And you know who the biggest star in the world is and arguably the biggest wrestling figure since Hogan? View AttachmentI believe this is pretty much what Douglas Coupland said about the death of pop culture in 2010. There is now so much being produced and it's so easily available and consumed in such a way that there are no shared cultural experiences anymore in the same way that there were in the second half of the twentieth century. Wrestling has always relied on latching onto one of these shared cultural experiences, be it the first boom in television in the fifties, or cable and MTV in the eighties, or alternative pop culture in the nineties, or whatever, but this is pretty much impossible now because there's been such a massive shift.
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Post by eJm on Jan 21, 2021 18:06:36 GMT -5
There's thousands upon thousands of tv channels to choose from, incredibly life-like video games, blockbuster movies being released like clockwork, and basically entire lives being enacted on the Internet. The fact that so many alternatives exist to siphon away from Wrestling's popularity is never adequately addressed. It's not that men are too pretty. Jesus. And you know who the biggest star in the world is and arguably the biggest wrestling figure since Hogan? View AttachmentI believe this is pretty much what Douglas Coupland said about the death of pop culture in 2010. There is now so much being produced and it's so easily available and consumed in such a way that there are no shared cultural experiences anymore in the same way that there were in the second half of the twentieth century. Wrestling has always relied on latching onto one of these shared cultural experiences, be it the first boom in television in the fifties, or cable and MTV in the eighties, or alternative pop culture in the nineties, or whatever, but this is pretty much impossible now because there's been such a massive shift.
It's sort of why I ask about who a casual fan is anymore considering there are so many levels of this stuff where even in wrestling, you could just be someone who watches one show religiously, tries to watch as much wrestling as possible, watches only one type or from a country or even just sticks to indies. And all of that has its own levels of casual or hardcore where all you can really do marketing-wise most of the time is put on a good show and see what happens.
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Wieners=$$$
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Post by Wieners=$$$ on Jan 21, 2021 18:49:30 GMT -5
I believe this is pretty much what Douglas Coupland said about the death of pop culture in 2010. There is now so much being produced and it's so easily available and consumed in such a way that there are no shared cultural experiences anymore in the same way that there were in the second half of the twentieth century. Wrestling has always relied on latching onto one of these shared cultural experiences, be it the first boom in television in the fifties, or cable and MTV in the eighties, or alternative pop culture in the nineties, or whatever, but this is pretty much impossible now because there's been such a massive shift.
It's sort of why I ask about who a casual fan is anymore considering there are so many levels of this stuff where even in wrestling, you could just be someone who watches one show religiously, tries to watch as much wrestling as possible, watches only one type or from a country or even just sticks to indies. And all of that has its own levels of casual or hardcore where all you can really do marketing-wise most of the time is put on a good show and see what happens. Agreed. I said last year that the concept of the IWC is officially dead now that the Thunderdome became part of the product. Before the Network, fans did not have the accessibility to this much history of pro-wrestling, unless they watched it as it happened. It is has become easy for a casual fan to find out about a wrestler that is about to debut, go onto YouTube and familiarize themselves with said wrestlers body of work, that a lot of the mystery and aura that made pro-wrestling so fascinating, is lost forever. I believe the only true wrestling experience is a live one now, and until that happens again, for the masses, it will feel artificial.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jan 21, 2021 19:17:32 GMT -5
I believe this is pretty much what Douglas Coupland said about the death of pop culture in 2010. There is now so much being produced and it's so easily available and consumed in such a way that there are no shared cultural experiences anymore in the same way that there were in the second half of the twentieth century. Wrestling has always relied on latching onto one of these shared cultural experiences, be it the first boom in television in the fifties, or cable and MTV in the eighties, or alternative pop culture in the nineties, or whatever, but this is pretty much impossible now because there's been such a massive shift.
It's sort of why I ask about who a casual fan is anymore considering there are so many levels of this stuff where even in wrestling, you could just be someone who watches one show religiously, tries to watch as much wrestling as possible, watches only one type or from a country or even just sticks to indies. And all of that has its own levels of casual or hardcore where all you can really do marketing-wise most of the time is put on a good show and see what happens. All of this is why I don't put too much stock in low ratings.
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Post by eJm on Jan 21, 2021 19:20:38 GMT -5
It's sort of why I ask about who a casual fan is anymore considering there are so many levels of this stuff where even in wrestling, you could just be someone who watches one show religiously, tries to watch as much wrestling as possible, watches only one type or from a country or even just sticks to indies. And all of that has its own levels of casual or hardcore where all you can really do marketing-wise most of the time is put on a good show and see what happens. All of this is why I don't put too much stock in low ratings. I mean, there's still a thing about driving those people off and WWE have been driving those people off with it at least seeming to stop for the time being. Like, even if you have a product that caters to the right people, the mistakes you make could still cost you that audience (Quibi being pretty much the posterchild of this example).
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jan 21, 2021 19:22:58 GMT -5
All of this is why I don't put too much stock in low ratings. I mean, there's still a thing about driving those people off and WWE have been driving those people off with it at least seeming to stop for the time being. Like, even if you have a product that caters to the right people, the mistakes you make could still cost you that audience (Quibi being pretty much the posterchild of this example). but there placement in most watched shows on the night they are on are still very high. Just more different forms of entertainment out there.
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Post by eJm on Jan 21, 2021 19:26:36 GMT -5
I mean, there's still a thing about driving those people off and WWE have been driving those people off with it at least seeming to stop for the time being. Like, even if you have a product that caters to the right people, the mistakes you make could still cost you that audience (Quibi being pretty much the posterchild of this example). but there placement in most watched shows on the night they are on are still very high. Just more different forms of entertainment out there. I get what you mean by that, yeah, but even so there are still moments that you can engage a wider audience and keep them for a long time and the bigger issue has been keeping the audience they have, regardless of demos. Like, I don't think it's as simple as you're making it out to be either.
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hassanchop
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Post by hassanchop on Jan 21, 2021 20:04:41 GMT -5
A certain character is gonna have a field day with this then go out for cheeseburgers With pickles
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Post by Starshine on Jan 21, 2021 21:28:32 GMT -5
I mean, there's still a thing about driving those people off and WWE have been driving those people off with it at least seeming to stop for the time being. Like, even if you have a product that caters to the right people, the mistakes you make could still cost you that audience (Quibi being pretty much the posterchild of this example). but there placement in most watched shows on the night they are on are still very high. Just more different forms of entertainment out there. Different forms of entertainment aren’t losing their average viewership as quickly as WWE is either. It’s not a healthy company, regardless of what the P&L statement says right now.
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hassanchop
Grimlock
Who are you to doubt Belldandy?
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Post by hassanchop on Jan 21, 2021 21:35:11 GMT -5
Surprised they didn’t bring up the stalker storyline. One of the comments though
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2021 23:11:41 GMT -5
I’ll go a step further, Taker just described why wrestling has lost mainstream popularity and interest among younger people. The talent care more about how they look, both in terms of appearance and moves in the ring. There’s no selling, no psychology, no respect for what older guys worked so hard to protect. People can disagree with that thinking, up to you, but I think it definitely plays a part in why the genre is so niche now. People are just going to focus on “OMG tOxIc mAsCuLiNiTy!!” but I think there’s something deeper there if you look past that. This, its kind of why i m falling out of interest in a lot of the current product (and some of AEW is this)...It comes off as community theatre mixed with cirque de solele performance and cosplaying as comic book/superhero/disney characters... its probably why a lot of the demo's have shifted off to UFC/MMAAgree completely with everything, especially the bolded part. The demo that made the Attitude Era/MNW so popular is now the audience that watches UFC, and that audience isn't coming back to WWE any time soon, if ever. Taker's points are spot on, and while yes you can blame the companies as well since they ask their talent to work/look a specific way, it doesn't change the fact that there are also major societal changes at work as well (talent today look and act differently than 20-30 years ago). If wrestling was on fire doing what they are doing now, then Taker would look like an idiot for saying what he said. It's actually the opposite. Wrestling has its niche and place in the entertainment landscape, but that's it, and I don't see why Taker's getting bashed here for essentially giving the reasons behind it (obviously there are others like creative, oversaturation, etc, but he mentioned a big reason too).
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Post by Instant Classic on Jan 21, 2021 23:22:32 GMT -5
That is so not All Elite Scooby Doo of him.
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knightboat
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Post by knightboat on Jan 22, 2021 1:57:04 GMT -5
Bronko Nagurski didn't get no bye week and now he's dead. Maybe it's a good thing.
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