Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,087
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jan 22, 2021 11:29:05 GMT -5
A bike shop named after a slur and with a logo that's just SS symbol is, even if taken to not be malicious, the most unbelievably, hilariously cursed fumbling of one's business I could ever imagine. Feels silly mentioning it. But if it's not intentional, why have your logo be 2 letters that are different from your shop's initials? Taking any other meanings out, it's just bad business, like if VW's logo was an F and a Q
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Post by eJm on Jan 22, 2021 11:32:33 GMT -5
A bike shop named after a slur and with a logo that's just SS symbol is, even if taken to not be malicious, the most unbelievably, hilariously cursed fumbling of one's business I could ever imagine. Feels silly mentioning it. But if it's not intentional, why have your logo be 2 letters that are different from your shop's initials? Taking any other meanings out, it's just bad business, like if VW's logo was an F and a Q I know you didn’t intend it that way but invoking VW as an example in this discussion is kind of hilarious considering their history.
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Post by Viking Hall on Jan 22, 2021 12:02:43 GMT -5
From what I can make out a lot of Biker Gangs began using the logo purely for the shock value of it, basically being edgy for the sake of being edgy. Same thing happened in the Punk scene in the late seventies, loads of people wore the Swastika just to be provocative not to make any sort of political statement. Still bad behaviour, but bad in a different way to wearing such logos due to your political leanings.
Here's a quote from the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish organisation which focuses on eradicating Antisemitism:
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r.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bye
Posts: 16,481
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Post by r. on Jan 22, 2021 12:05:31 GMT -5
These new guys and their video games and unmanly behavior will allow them to live past 45.
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hassanchop
Grimlock
Who are you to doubt Belldandy?
Posts: 14,796
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Post by hassanchop on Jan 22, 2021 12:53:15 GMT -5
So does that also apply to the Harris Bros as well?
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jan 22, 2021 12:56:42 GMT -5
From what I can make out a lot of Biker Gangs began using the logo purely for the shock value of it, basically being edgy for the sake of being edgy. Same thing happened in the Punk scene in the late seventies, loads of people wore the Swastika just to be provocative not to make any sort of political statement. Still bad behaviour, but bad in a different way to wearing such logos due to your political leanings. Here's a quote from the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish organisation which focuses on eradicating Antisemitism: As an edgy metal weirdo who absolutely owns jewelry with Norse and Celtic symbols that also get used by neo-nazis, I totally get the core idea of it, and a lot of my own fashion ends up with ADL write-ups talking about how the context isn't always white supremacy. But that stuff refers to the biker culture of decades ago. By the '90s and with their own business, this was noxious as all f*** and it still reflects unbelievably poorly on Taker. In the case of punks, the scene drove that f***ing nonsense out with a quickness once it became clear some punks actually were nazis and anyone trying to blend it as a 'statement' was aiding the ability of such nazis to plausibly hang around and hide in plain sight.
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Jan 22, 2021 12:59:10 GMT -5
pointless arguing about that particular SS/Nazi shirt and it's supposed duality when he's been wandering around in stuff as bad recently, a few during a documentary about his entire career
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Post by Starshine on Jan 22, 2021 13:52:01 GMT -5
Taker’s just sad none of these guys want to play Dominoes with him. A game for real men.
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Post by Viking Hall on Jan 22, 2021 13:53:30 GMT -5
From what I can make out a lot of Biker Gangs began using the logo purely for the shock value of it, basically being edgy for the sake of being edgy. Same thing happened in the Punk scene in the late seventies, loads of people wore the Swastika just to be provocative not to make any sort of political statement. Still bad behaviour, but bad in a different way to wearing such logos due to your political leanings. Here's a quote from the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish organisation which focuses on eradicating Antisemitism: As an edgy metal weirdo who absolutely owns jewelry with Norse and Celtic symbols that also get used by neo-nazis, I totally get the core idea of it, and a lot of my own fashion ends up with ADL write-ups talking about how the context isn't always white supremacy. But that stuff refers to the biker culture of decades ago. By the '90s and with their own business, this was noxious as all f*** and it still reflects unbelievably poorly on Taker. In the case of punks, the scene drove that f***ing nonsense out with a quickness once it became clear some punks actually were nazis and anyone trying to blend it as a 'statement' was aiding the ability of such nazis to plausibly hang around and hide in plain sight. Oh certainly, I'm a big fan of Punk (mainly the bands from here in the UK) so I totally know where the lines blur between edgy imagery and flat out bigotry but if there's an element of doubt there then I like to give someone the courtesy of seeing both sides of the coin. After all, there is a chasm between holding moderately Right Wing views and being a Nazi, something I certainly would never want to accuse someone of unless there was irrefutable evidence. And I say that as a Millennial Lefty who would certainly roll my eyes at many of the views Mark Callaway would appear to hold (and vice versa I'm sure). So does that also apply to the Harris Bros as well? Funnily enough, maybe. It would seem that both were involved in a similar Biker scene and possibly have been done a disservice too. Both also apparently have multiracial families now too.
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Post by Jacy Jayne Atomic Dog AMV on Jan 22, 2021 14:08:47 GMT -5
A bike shop named after a slur and with a logo that's just SS symbol is, even if taken to not be malicious, the most unbelievably, hilariously cursed fumbling of one's business I could ever imagine. They've done it now. They've gone and made a big mistake.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 14:36:49 GMT -5
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Post by eJm on Jan 22, 2021 14:53:21 GMT -5
“I wonder why the younger talent don’t respect me and listen to my advice. I don’t understand at all!”
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 22, 2021 15:24:32 GMT -5
Joe Rogan and the Undertaker.
I don't even need to know what they talked about to know it would have been a shitfest of idiocy.
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Legion
Fry's dog Seymour
Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
Posts: 22,864
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Post by Legion on Jan 22, 2021 15:47:08 GMT -5
Kinda makes you think if he'd not been a deadman for his career, he'd have probably said something dumb and killed his legacy long before now.
Dude's an old man, and no offence here, as I'm courting stereotypes, but the guy's from Texas and that isnt known as the most progressive place....so I'm not surprised he has these more 'old school' views.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jan 22, 2021 15:59:23 GMT -5
From what I can make out a lot of Biker Gangs began using the logo purely for the shock value of it, basically being edgy for the sake of being edgy. Same thing happened in the Punk scene in the late seventies, loads of people wore the Swastika just to be provocative not to make any sort of political statement. Still bad behaviour, but bad in a different way to wearing such logos due to your political leanings. Here's a quote from the Anti-Defamation League, a Jewish organisation which focuses on eradicating Antisemitism: Yep, nothing says non comformity by wearing the symbols of an authoritarian regime whose entire ideology was based on rigid conformity. And it's always amusing when grown ass men try to act like rebellious outlaws by driving their motorcycles around on publically funded roads.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 16:08:07 GMT -5
Agree completely with everything, especially the bolded part. The demo that made the Attitude Era/MNW so popular is now the audience that watches UFC, and that audience isn't coming back to WWE any time soon, if ever. Taker's points are spot on, and while yes you can blame the companies as well since they ask their talent to work/look a specific way, it doesn't change the fact that there are also major societal changes at work as well (talent today look and act differently than 20-30 years ago). If wrestling was on fire doing what they are doing now, then Taker would look like an idiot for saying what he said. It's actually the opposite. Wrestling has its niche and place in the entertainment landscape, but that's it, and I don't see why Taker's getting bashed here for essentially giving the reasons behind it (obviously there are others like creative, oversaturation, etc, but he mentioned a big reason too). There still remains no genuine correlation between the idea that wrestlers play video games or are into geeky stuff instead of into hard drugs and strippers, and them being able to perform in a TV show people want to see. I don't know on TV who has a knife and "takes care of things" and who just wants to play fighting games. That's combining gripes you want to make about the product with broad social gripes you want to make separate, and bundling them up like they're one and the same so you can express that side frustration, too. I won't cosign the "knife" stuff that Taker was talking about, but I think there is definitely something about embracing nerd culture that has hurt wrestling's (WWE's) mainstream marketability. You have wrestlers today who are obsessed with video games, and then what does the in ring action resemble? Most times, a video game. This is the era of marks who trained to become wrestlers, and have completely gone away from what made wrestling cool to begin with. That bleeds into the product. One part of the appeal of wrestling has always been the superhero aspect of it. I never watched Hogan when I was a kid and thought "man I am just like him". It was more "I want to be like him". Same with Rock, Austin, Taker, and others. If I know that all the talent play video games (for example), and bring that nerd culture into their on screen personas, then they become so relatable that it's almost a turn off. UFC gives off the same type of vibe as the Attitude Era/MNW did. It's cool for young people to get into it and talk about it. What Taker brings up is a big reason why the WWE has become more isolated. They do care too much about looks and non important stuff. Also, I don't mean "nerd culture" as an insult. It is what it is. It has a market and it's cool for people to consider themselves in that group. I just don't think it works in a wrestling context, and the numbers in the last decade prove it. There is a reason why legends shows pop ratings. The audience is older, and the current product doesn't appeal to younger people outside of its niche. Roman's current character is the closest thing to a cool badass character the company has developed in years, possibly a decade (since Punk's pipe bomb). I see Roman and he's so unrelatable that he becomes cool to get behind. You want to have his confidence and swag. That's sorely missing today.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
AGGRESSIVE Executive Janitor of the Third Floor Manager's Bathroom
Posts: 37,305
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Post by The Ichi on Jan 22, 2021 16:14:11 GMT -5
I remember when everyone (me included) couldn't wait for the day that Taker did a tell all interview. Turns out it was probably for the best he kept it kayfabe.
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Post by eJm on Jan 22, 2021 16:36:40 GMT -5
I won't cosign the "knife" stuff that Taker was talking about, but I think there is definitely something about embracing nerd culture that has hurt wrestling's (WWE's) mainstream marketability. Ignoring the fact that it's helped some of their talent branch out to other projects because they're embracing nerd culture (Austin Creed in general, Sasha Banks on The Mandalorian etc), I'd say being in an industry with a wide history of shoddy business practices, disregard for the health and security of its workers, willing to jump in bed with a nation that beheads its citizens for speaking out, protecting abusers, rapist, drug dealers, paedophiles and spent an entire summer basically showcasing that to be fact across many mainstream news sources likely hurts pro wrestling's crediblity more than "Hey, he likes geek stuff and I do too!" But that's just me.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Jan 22, 2021 17:21:13 GMT -5
There still remains no genuine correlation between the idea that wrestlers play video games or are into geeky stuff instead of into hard drugs and strippers, and them being able to perform in a TV show people want to see. I don't know on TV who has a knife and "takes care of things" and who just wants to play fighting games. That's combining gripes you want to make about the product with broad social gripes you want to make separate, and bundling them up like they're one and the same so you can express that side frustration, too. I won't cosign the "knife" stuff that Taker was talking about, but I think there is definitely something about embracing nerd culture that has hurt wrestling's (WWE's) mainstream marketability. You have wrestlers today who are obsessed with video games, and then what does the in ring action resemble? Most times, a video game. This is the era of marks who trained to become wrestlers, and have completely gone away from what made wrestling cool to begin with. That bleeds into the product. One part of the appeal of wrestling has always been the superhero aspect of it. I never watched Hogan when I was a kid and thought "man I am just like him". It was more "I want to be like him". Same with Rock, Austin, Taker, and others. If I know that all the talent play video games (for example), and bring that nerd culture into their on screen personas, then they become so relatable that it's almost a turn off. UFC gives off the same type of vibe as the Attitude Era/MNW did. It's cool for young people to get into it and talk about it. What Taker brings up is a big reason why the WWE has become more isolated. They do care too much about looks and non important stuff. Also, I don't mean "nerd culture" as an insult. It is what it is. It has a market and it's cool for people to consider themselves in that group. I just don't think it works in a wrestling context, and the numbers in the last decade prove it. There is a reason why legends shows pop ratings. The audience is older, and the current product doesn't appeal to younger people outside of its niche. Roman's current character is the closest thing to a cool badass character the company has developed in years, possibly a decade (since Punk's pipe bomb). I see Roman and he's so unrelatable that he becomes cool to get behind. You want to have his confidence and swag. That's sorely missing today. Nobody save for New Day has really brought any overt character elements of their real life interests that strongly to the forefront, and WWE is actively not embracing nerd culture and run by someone who actively balks at it at any turn. What the decade of ratings shows is a glut of creative and on-screen issues that the wrestlers have minimal control over, much the same way that the matches are put together by agents, not by the gaming, prettiness-obsessed wrestlers. It's still ultimately a weird critique on masculinity wrapped up in some weird explanation to try and make it more palatable. And it's also flawed, because if WWE did have some overriding issue of wrestlers' geeky interests making them so relatable that they couldn't be idealized or aspirational and instead impenetrably down to earth dudes everyone saw themselves in, WWE would be the biggest media empire in the world. Younger generations are all the f*** about relatability. All those alternative new media sources siphoning away the younger demographics? Built on heaps and heaps of relatability, accessibility, and authenticity, to the point where careers have been rocked by mere accusations someone isn't really presenting a genuine face because the potential that has to hurt the entire image people have of them is a powerful one. WWE would be rolling in it right now if that was the prevailing issue with the show, and it would in fact be the smartest business decision WWE could make at the current moment. You bring up UFC but where in this does top star Israel Adesanya, a man whose ring name is a callout to Avatar and reps his love of anime--complete with a cartoon girl tattooed on his forearm--fit into this issue? Compared to say AJ Styles, who in interviews praises Bulletstorm of all games, but who on-screen never really expresses any of that?
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Pushed to the Moon
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Tony Schiavone in Disguise
Working myself into a shoot
Posts: 15,819
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Post by Pushed to the Moon on Jan 22, 2021 17:35:43 GMT -5
There still remains no genuine correlation between the idea that wrestlers play video games or are into geeky stuff instead of into hard drugs and strippers, and them being able to perform in a TV show people want to see. I don't know on TV who has a knife and "takes care of things" and who just wants to play fighting games. That's combining gripes you want to make about the product with broad social gripes you want to make separate, and bundling them up like they're one and the same so you can express that side frustration, too. I won't cosign the "knife" stuff that Taker was talking about, but I think there is definitely something about embracing nerd culture that has hurt wrestling's (WWE's) mainstream marketability. You have wrestlers today who are obsessed with video games, and then what does the in ring action resemble? Most times, a video game. This is the era of marks who trained to become wrestlers, and have completely gone away from what made wrestling cool to begin with. That bleeds into the product. One part of the appeal of wrestling has always been the superhero aspect of it. I never watched Hogan when I was a kid and thought "man I am just like him". It was more "I want to be like him". Same with Rock, Austin, Taker, and others. If I know that all the talent play video games (for example), and bring that nerd culture into their on screen personas, then they become so relatable that it's almost a turn off. UFC gives off the same type of vibe as the Attitude Era/MNW did. It's cool for young people to get into it and talk about it. What Taker brings up is a big reason why the WWE has become more isolated. They do care too much about looks and non important stuff. Also, I don't mean "nerd culture" as an insult. It is what it is. It has a market and it's cool for people to consider themselves in that group. I just don't think it works in a wrestling context, and the numbers in the last decade prove it. There is a reason why legends shows pop ratings. The audience is older, and the current product doesn't appeal to younger people outside of its niche. Roman's current character is the closest thing to a cool badass character the company has developed in years, possibly a decade (since Punk's pipe bomb). I see Roman and he's so unrelatable that he becomes cool to get behind. You want to have his confidence and swag. That's sorely missing today. I agree. (Not that I want people stabbing each other obviously!) but I think the sanitised and safe nature of things has hurt the popularity as opposed to the aggression of the late 90s. Whether that was down to the fact they were all psycho jerks heffed up on goofballs and living on edge carrying weapons I dunno but the intensity used to translate into the show and the characters. Now a lot of it is just extra campy and overtly fake and very "happy to be here" which is great for health and longevity of course (even though people cripple themselves with high risk moves instead now rather than drink and drugs) and I'm not mad it cos it's how'd I'd behave too as a non drinking geek myself, but it doesn't appeal to as broad of an audience as it's all homogenised and bland (when they're not throwing fire in each other's faces at least.) You just need to listen to the crowds then and now (or at least when there WERE crowds!) and compare. Watch an old attitude event and there's a constant buzz of noise from rabid fans during matches screaming for them to destroy each other. Now it's synchronised sing songs and/or sitting in silence and politely popping for different spots like you're at the theatre. Again I'm not begging for people ODing and getting shanked in the locker room but it's just part of the reason it's not as popular anymore just like you say. WWE might even prefer it now anyway since they still rake it millions of dollars in spite of lower ratings.
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