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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 27, 2021 20:03:18 GMT -5
I feel like this was an excuse for a while but I have seen crowds at AEW, New Japan, ROH, and elsewhere that went through 3+ hours of wrestling and were up for most of it. It's certainly not easy but I don't buy it as a crutch anymore. I like how you used New Japan as an example, since for me, the top example that I use as how a crowd can be kept invested in a show was the first Wrestle Kingdom that ever watched live, Wrestle Kingdom 12. It started at 3AM my time and I was actually able to stay awake for the entire time since not only was it an excellent show, but the crowd was white-hot the entire time, despite there being seemingly no breaks in the action. Hell, major NJPW cards are also booked with no "breather match" spots; it's mostly build, build, build up to the main event, and it only tends to add positively to the experience.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Jul 27, 2021 20:45:27 GMT -5
Vince McMahon has a depressing tendency to take the worst possible lesson from everything. He saw the success of the pipebomb and the Yes Movement and said, "Ah, we should get meta! The real heel heat is when fans think we favor a heel, and the big face pops are for the downtrodden wrestlers that nobody really believes will win the big one!" And so, WWE will adjust, but always in the worst way, because it's an adjustment based on "what," but never "why." Babyfaces were too dominant in the 00s, only for heels to get way too dominant in the 10s. This wasn't a smart adjustment to pull it back and balance it, it was a swing in the other direction that's just as bad because it's also repetitive and soul-crushing. And it's always done in an attempt at raw audience reaction, without any real sense of narrative or cohesion; just wrestling tropes and techniques used without the context or texture that makes them work. Booking by formula is the best way I can think of to describe it. Bryan worked as a scrappy underdog because... well, he was. He was seen as a great hand by the company but not much else. Punk was a pissed off dude with grievances. You can't just slot anyone into a role like that and expect it to work, either. It’s why the Roman Reigns main event experiment largely was a failure until the heel turn. They tried forcing Roman in to the formulaic John Cena-style main event face and pretty much got diminishing returns due to an audience that wasn’t buying what WWE was selling.
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Post by Susan "Poison" Candy on Jul 27, 2021 21:12:55 GMT -5
Yeah it's bad writing, not the amount of hours of the show. If 2000 WWF had 3 hour Raw's, they would have been kick ass most likely since the entire roster was over and they cared about the storylines. Today's WWE just doesn't do that. It's a poorly written SNL built for an audience of one (Vince). The whole audience was into those years. There really never was an arena that didn't have the fans going crazy and yes the entire roster was over. Mid careers, low careers, main event guys, the women, even jobbers were over or had a purpose.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 27, 2021 21:14:40 GMT -5
Booking by formula is the best way I can think of to describe it. Bryan worked as a scrappy underdog because... well, he was. He was seen as a great hand by the company but not much else. Punk was a pissed off dude with grievances. You can't just slot anyone into a role like that and expect it to work, either. It’s why the Roman Reigns main event experiment largely was a failure until the heel turn. They tried forcing Roman in to the formulaic John Cena-style main event face and pretty much got diminishing returns due to an audience that wasn’t buying what WWE was selling. I actually think this is an older thing; at least as old as the 90s. Reigns was just the obvious Chosen One Grr Wrestling Man and we were all supposed to love him because he's big and tough and manly and wins a lot. That worked with Hogan because it was a weird brief pop culture moment where huge muscly action stars were everywhere. It worked with The Rock because The Rock happens to be the most charismatic person who's ever been alive. Most of the time, it doesn't work. I strongly suspect they don't care that it doesn't work. This is who they think should be heroes: the Real Strong Men, and they will keep forcing them out there as the chosen stars because if fans don't like them, then the fans much be losers and wrong.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jul 27, 2021 21:20:57 GMT -5
It’s why the Roman Reigns main event experiment largely was a failure until the heel turn. They tried forcing Roman in to the formulaic John Cena-style main event face and pretty much got diminishing returns due to an audience that wasn’t buying what WWE was selling. I actually think this is an older thing; at least as old as the 90s. Reigns was just the obvious Chosen One Grr Wrestling Man and we were all supposed to love him because he's big and tough and manly and wins a lot. That worked with Hogan because it was a weird brief pop culture moment where huge muscly action stars were everywhere. It worked with The Rock because The Rock happens to be the most charismatic person who's ever been alive. Most of the time, it doesn't work. I strongly suspect they don't care that it doesn't work. This is who they think should be heroes: the Real Strong Men, and they will keep forcing them out there as the chosen stars because if fans don't like them, then the fans much be losers and wrong. and the Rock DIDN'T work at first, Steve Austin didn't work at first either. they didn't force Blue Chipper Rocky to be the face of the company... against the mostly silent good wrestling Ring Master. Randy Orton face of the company also failed and they used why it failed to make Batista ... John Cena was never supposed to be anything but he got over with the Rapping stuff and they went all in on him.. Vince used to realize that when his ideas weren't working that he'd change direction on them and give them a new character... but in recent years his response ot X isn't working is... PUSH IT HARDER ... I'm right god dammit.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2021 22:27:34 GMT -5
I think what baffles me most on Roman is that every now and then they DID stumble into what actually worked for him as a face - quiet, confident badass who would just wreck people - but without fail they'd always return to either him telling stupid jokes or spending whole matches boringly getting the shit beaten out of him.
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Jul 27, 2021 22:52:59 GMT -5
I think what baffles me most on Roman is that every now and then they DID stumble into what actually worked for him as a face - quiet, confident badass who would just wreck people - but without fail they'd always return to either him telling stupid jokes or spending whole matches boringly getting the shit beaten out of him. This reminds of a promo he did after he beat the Undertaker at Wrestlemania, where he came out and barely said anything? I've never seen the promo, but I remember a lot of people on here liking it.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jul 27, 2021 23:03:00 GMT -5
I think what baffles me most on Roman is that every now and then they DID stumble into what actually worked for him as a face - quiet, confident badass who would just wreck people - but without fail they'd always return to either him telling stupid jokes or spending whole matches boringly getting the shit beaten out of him. This reminds of a promo he did after he beat the Undertaker at Wrestlemania, where he came out and barely said anything? I've never seen the promo, but I remember a lot of people on here liking it. It was not a face promo. It was 100% a heel promo that was one of the best heel promos ever except it apparently wasn't intended to be as they immediately had Michael Cole go on about bizzaro land and how they really actually like Roman... and the next week Roman cutting the most milquetoast face promo of all time followed by the comically long Braun attack. he came out and said "It's my yard now."
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 27, 2021 23:13:38 GMT -5
I think what baffles me most on Roman is that every now and then they DID stumble into what actually worked for him as a face - quiet, confident badass who would just wreck people - but without fail they'd always return to either him telling stupid jokes or spending whole matches boringly getting the shit beaten out of him. I feel like there's two pieces to this. Reigns had a face character he could slide into... confident, sorta sleazy, loyal to his friends. He seemed comfortable when we got glimpses of it, and it was interesting. But Quiet Man Who Wrecks People is not going to be a face character that maintains fan goodwill for very long. It just gets boring, first of all, and people start feeling underdog sympathy towards all the heels he fights.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2021 23:21:11 GMT -5
I think what baffles me most on Roman is that every now and then they DID stumble into what actually worked for him as a face - quiet, confident badass who would just wreck people - but without fail they'd always return to either him telling stupid jokes or spending whole matches boringly getting the shit beaten out of him. I feel like there's two pieces to this. Reigns had a face character he could slide into... confident, sorta sleazy, loyal to his friends. He seemed comfortable when we got glimpses of it, and it was interesting. But Quiet Man Who Wrecks People is not going to be a face character that maintains fan goodwill for very long. It just gets boring, first of all, and people start feeling underdog sympathy towards all the heels he fights. I once described Roman as "Goldberg's 'wreck shit' style with Big Sexy Kevin Nash's cool, laid back charisma.. but only when they let him be himself" I would think it's pretty hard to mess that up, but instead we got years of Sufferin' Succotash and stop-start pushes of Roman as this comedian who isn't very funny with the jokes he's been given.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 28, 2021 0:00:19 GMT -5
Man, the general mood of the WWE board just seems so dour lately. I remember when we were all excited for things like the Yes! movement and the pipebomb and the like, but everyone just seems so miserable. Either there's a lot of sour grapes here, or Vince really has just grown to hate his audience and adopted the attitude of "I already got my money, f*** you and f*** your favorite wrestler." Vince McMahon has a depressing tendency to take the worst possible lesson from everything. He saw the success of the pipebomb and the Yes Movement and said, "Ah, we should get meta! The real heel heat is when fans think we favor a heel, and the big face pops are for the downtrodden wrestlers that nobody really believes will win the big one!" And so, WWE will adjust, but always in the worst way, because it's an adjustment based on "what," but never "why." Babyfaces were too dominant in the 00s, only for heels to get way too dominant in the 10s. This wasn't a smart adjustment to pull it back and balance it, it was a swing in the other direction that's just as bad because it's also repetitive and soul-crushing. And it's always done in an attempt at raw audience reaction, without any real sense of narrative or cohesion; just wrestling tropes and techniques used without the context or texture that makes them work. "What" instead of "why" really does capture so much of Vince's key flaw as a booker; he sees what worked before and assumes that if the broad parameters are replicated, that's all you need, but that ignores so much about context and why some shit works while other shit doesn't, or why certain performers/characters can get over while others can't. He tried to force Lex Luger into being Hulk Hogan; it didn't work, because that's not who Lex was, but Vince wasn't interested in booking Luger to his strengths. More importantly, he's basically tried to book every one of his top faces since the Attitude Era to be some hybrid of Steve Austin and the Rock: they need to be anti-authority loners like Austin, even if that doesn't fit their character at all, but they also need to be warrior-poets who always get the last word in and tell the "funniest" (to Vince) jokes in the room like the Rock. Think back to how this hurt Cena when they booked him as the top face: Cena as an anti-authority face almost never worked because it was crystal clear that Cena was who the office was pushing to the top, and he lived up to that billing by being the guy who was kid-friendly, did all the charity work, and did all the things that could be expected of him by the promotion. That's not a knock on Cena, by the way; he played his role to the hilt, for good or ill. But late-90s Austin only worked because of the specific circumstances that made his character so effective as a foil against Vince, like Austin's stop and start booking starting in 1996, the way he turned face against Bret, the way Montreal played into Vince's emerging heel boss character, etc. Yet there they were, trying to force Cena into the Austin role by having him "rebel" against Eric Bischoff or John Laurenitis or whomever and it just felt so damned phony, because it's not who the Cena character was. They tried to play off what worked for someone else rather than tailoring their stories and presentation for what worked for him. Then they tried forcing Roman to do the same: he had to be a loner, hence the splitting of the Shield, but he also had to be more like the Rock, hence all the stupid, horrifically scripted promos he was given that absolutely ruined his shot of getting over more organically circa 2016 or so. God forbid the guy not speak too much, or keep his cadence kind of low and even, or get over as someone whose calling card is that he's a destroyer once the bell rings but maybe isn't super flashy when he's outside the ring, he must be made to cut promos where he insults his opponent and comes off as the smartest and funniest guy in the room, otherwise how else will people know he's supposed to be popular?! Meanwhile, starting around the same time NJPW brought Kazuchika Okada back from excursion and immediately wanted to push him to the top of the promotion; he had the in-ring ability, storytelling chops, and ring psychology to make it all work like a dream. His only flaw? He wasn't very confident on the mic right away, and it might be tough to get him over with his initial arrogant heel character without that trait. Solution? Give him Gedo, the promotion's booker, as a manager and mouthpiece who did most of the talking for him during his first couple of years at the top of the card, until Okada felt comfortable enough to handle those duties himself, at which point Gedo could be shifted to another up and coming heel who could use a Japanese mouthpiece; in this case Jay White, who's masterful at cutting promos in English but isn't fully fluent in Japanese. NJPW didn't try and force Okada to be anything he wasn't or to do something he wasn't ready for; they gave him time to adjust and grow and learn, and it made them millions of dollars in the process.
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Jul 28, 2021 0:10:52 GMT -5
This reminds of a promo he did after he beat the Undertaker at Wrestlemania, where he came out and barely said anything? I've never seen the promo, but I remember a lot of people on here liking it. It was not a face promo. It was 100% a heel promo that was one of the best heel promos ever except it apparently wasn't intended to be as they immediately had Michael Cole go on about bizzaro land and how they really actually like Roman... and the next week Roman cutting the most milquetoast face promo of all time followed by the comically long Braun attack. he came out and said "It's my yard now." This was basically the Head of the Table years before it happened.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jul 28, 2021 2:33:55 GMT -5
This reminds of a promo he did after he beat the Undertaker at Wrestlemania, where he came out and barely said anything? I've never seen the promo, but I remember a lot of people on here liking it. It was not a face promo. It was 100% a heel promo that was one of the best heel promos ever except it apparently wasn't intended to be as they immediately had Michael Cole go on about bizzaro land and how they really actually like Roman... and the next week Roman cutting the most milquetoast face promo of all time followed by the comically long Braun attack. he came out and said "It's my yard now." I’m still mad about that to this day because I watched both of those unfold live in the same two weeks. I was psyched about that new direction until Cole and Byron practically told me that it wasn’t what management intended to be and I never wanted Braun to hurt Roman more than I did when he was cutting this goober like promo. It did at least give us “I’M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU” to one of the biggest pops of Braun’s career.
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Post by A Platypus Rave on Jul 28, 2021 2:58:58 GMT -5
It was not a face promo. It was 100% a heel promo that was one of the best heel promos ever except it apparently wasn't intended to be as they immediately had Michael Cole go on about bizzaro land and how they really actually like Roman... and the next week Roman cutting the most milquetoast face promo of all time followed by the comically long Braun attack. he came out and said "It's my yard now." I’m still mad about that to this day because I watched both of those unfold live in the same two weeks. I was psyched about that new direction until Cole and Byron practically told me that it wasn’t what management intended to be and I never wanted Braun to hurt Roman more than I did when he was cutting this goober like promo. It did at least give us “I’M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU” to one of the biggest pops of Braun’s career. Oh yeah the next week pretty much made Braun a main event talent... I mean I think he'd have gotten somewhat over just for the overly long beatdown (to at least an ironic degree) but the fact he was doing it to Roman? that just solidified him as a super face for the audience...
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2021 3:02:20 GMT -5
I’m still mad about that to this day because I watched both of those unfold live in the same two weeks. I was psyched about that new direction until Cole and Byron practically told me that it wasn’t what management intended to be and I never wanted Braun to hurt Roman more than I did when he was cutting this goober like promo. It did at least give us “I’M NOT FINISHED WITH YOU” to one of the biggest pops of Braun’s career. Oh yeah the next week pretty much made Braun a main event talent... I mean I think he'd have gotten somewhat over just for the overly long beatdown (to at least an ironic degree) but the fact he was doing it to Roman? that just solidified him as a super face for the audience... He was already kind of there anyway. They'd teased at Braun vs. Taker in the leadup to Mania, I guess as a backup plan in case Taker wasn't up to doing a singles match (which, y'know, he wasn't but that didn't stop them), and the crowd was going nuts for it.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jul 28, 2021 3:12:15 GMT -5
Oh yeah the next week pretty much made Braun a main event talent... I mean I think he'd have gotten somewhat over just for the overly long beatdown (to at least an ironic degree) but the fact he was doing it to Roman? that just solidified him as a super face for the audience... He was already kind of there anyway. They'd teased at Braun vs. Taker in the leadup to Mania, I guess as a backup plan in case Taker wasn't up to doing a singles match (which, y'know, he wasn't but that didn't stop them), and the crowd was going nuts for it. Was that the WrestleMania build where Cena cut a long rambling promo calling out The Undertaker and trying to convince everyone WWE didn't have any sort of plan for the guy and directly afterwards Braun said "I don't know what I'm doing for WrestleMania" even though Cena was calling anyone out for a match? ...Great, I'm annoyed again.
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Post by Chiral on Jul 28, 2021 3:19:26 GMT -5
He was already kind of there anyway. They'd teased at Braun vs. Taker in the leadup to Mania, I guess as a backup plan in case Taker wasn't up to doing a singles match (which, y'know, he wasn't but that didn't stop them), and the crowd was going nuts for it. Was that the WrestleMania build where Cena cut a long rambling promo calling out The Undertaker and trying to convince everyone WWE didn't have any sort of plan for the guy and directly afterwards Braun said "I don't know what I'm doing for WrestleMania" even though Cena was calling anyone out for a match? ...Great, I'm annoyed again. I just remembered the rumors that Braun was being saved in case Roman had to pull out of WM because of that guy saying he was about to drop all the dirt on Reigns' big steroid ring or something, but then I think it turned out he was talking about Luther Reigns, so in hindsight probably none of that was true and they had Cena and Braun each talking about wanting Wrestlemania stuff in segments aired like within 30 minutes of each other just because...something?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2021 3:21:07 GMT -5
He was already kind of there anyway. They'd teased at Braun vs. Taker in the leadup to Mania, I guess as a backup plan in case Taker wasn't up to doing a singles match (which, y'know, he wasn't but that didn't stop them), and the crowd was going nuts for it. Was that the WrestleMania build where Cena cut a long rambling promo calling out The Undertaker and trying to convince everyone WWE didn't have any sort of plan for the guy and directly afterwards Braun said "I don't know what I'm doing for WrestleMania" even though Cena was calling anyone out for a match? ...Great, I'm annoyed again. No, the Cena thing was the year after. That was when Braun faced Roman at Elimination Chamber or Fastlane or whatever it was then just kind of sat around for a month before being tossed from the Andre immediately then went right back to feuding with Roman.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 28, 2021 11:44:50 GMT -5
I feel like there's two pieces to this. Reigns had a face character he could slide into... confident, sorta sleazy, loyal to his friends. He seemed comfortable when we got glimpses of it, and it was interesting. But Quiet Man Who Wrecks People is not going to be a face character that maintains fan goodwill for very long. It just gets boring, first of all, and people start feeling underdog sympathy towards all the heels he fights. I once described Roman as "Goldberg's 'wreck shit' style with Big Sexy Kevin Nash's cool, laid back charisma.. but only when they let him be himself" I would think it's pretty hard to mess that up, but instead we got years of Sufferin' Succotash and stop-start pushes of Roman as this comedian who isn't very funny with the jokes he's been given. Goldberg's initial run would 100% not work today. It worked back then because of a very weird context where Undefeatable Big Old Guys ruled everything, and people were reaaaalllllly getting sick of it, and so Goldberg seemed like the only hope the young, unestablished wrestlers had of toppling that. And WCW was so disorganized, he could win and win and win and it didn't feel ordained or that he was chosen to be special. If you tried to redo Goldberg today, it would be... well, Karrion Kross in NXT. A guy who wins for no reason other than that the people in charge want him to look awesome and tough and strong and badass, because they like his tough strong badass look. And he just does the same thing, week after week, and we're supposed to like him solely because he's a winner, and human psychology does not work like that.
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Post by drjayphd (feat. Pitbull) on Jul 28, 2021 15:46:16 GMT -5
I once described Roman as "Goldberg's 'wreck shit' style with Big Sexy Kevin Nash's cool, laid back charisma.. but only when they let him be himself" I would think it's pretty hard to mess that up, but instead we got years of Sufferin' Succotash and stop-start pushes of Roman as this comedian who isn't very funny with the jokes he's been given. Goldberg's initial run would 100% not work today. It worked back then because of a very weird context where Undefeatable Big Old Guys ruled everything, and people were reaaaalllllly getting sick of it, and so Goldberg seemed like the only hope the young, unestablished wrestlers had of toppling that. And WCW was so disorganized, he could win and win and win and it didn't feel ordained or that he was chosen to be special. If you tried to redo Goldberg today, it would be... well, Karrion Kross in NXT. A guy who wins for no reason other than that the people in charge want him to look awesome and tough and strong and badass, because they like his tough strong badass look. And he just does the same thing, week after week, and we're supposed to like him solely because he's a winner, and human psychology does not work like that. It also felt more organic than Kross. He showed up with the entrance, the valet, all the badass. Goldberg barely got an entrance on his first appearance before beating Hugh Morrus. So at least the beginning of the build could happen now but otherwise I agree.
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