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Post by Savage Gambino on Sept 21, 2021 13:45:43 GMT -5
Bayley losing to Alexa Bliss after refusing to use a kendo stick to get revenge on her. Then that interview on Raw where Bayley basically said "I don't want to hurt people". It took a long time for people to be interested in her again until just last year during her empty arena Smackdown heel run. I know we tend to overuse the word "buried", but that whole Alexa feud seemed designed just to delegitimize Bayley; not just the "I don't want to hurt people" thing, but the damned This Is Your Life segment that was one of the most painful things I've ever seen on WWE television. It's wild that it took two more years for them to pull the trigger on a heel turn after that, because they killed her as a face. Listen to the crowd as she tries hard and fails to garner any sympathy after a legit injury towards the end of that same feud (courtesy of WWE's Official YouTube Channel):
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Post by EvenBaldobombHasAJob on Sept 21, 2021 13:55:33 GMT -5
Sting's lost to Hogan at Starrcade started WCW's downward fall. Sting losing to Hogan damaged the whole company. Sting never lost to Hogan. They did that botched Dusty finish which would've sucked even had they done it right, but not for a moment was it presented that Hogan beat Sting. And WCW was still huge in 1998. Sting not beating Hogan decisively enough had almost no affect on business. It may have adversely affected Sting's career, but WCW came out of that virtually unscathed. Stupid booking in 1998 and 1999 was far more damaging than Starrcade 1997. As for my answer, Lex Luger. And take your pick: 1. Dusty Finish at GAB '88 2. Losses to Flair in the rematch at Starrcade '88 basically clean 3. Two screwjob losses to Flair in 1990 so they could save the big win for Sting. 4. Countout win over Yokozuna at Summerslam '93 5. DQ loss to Yokozuna at Wrestlemania X 6. Losing to Hogan at Road Wild '97 just days after winning the Title in an all time moment on Nitro so they could save the conquering moment for Sting Any one of these could have solidified Luger as a bigger star. It's a massive credit to Luger that he always stayed reasonably over after all that. I think it's telling that even though Sting won I mentally picture the event as if he lost lol.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,027
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Sept 21, 2021 14:03:51 GMT -5
Ricochet getting annihilated by Brock Lesnar in Saudi Arabia last year. Man, this still pisses me off. Not the fact that Ricochet LOST... Because as much as I love Ricochet, I honestly think he had no business beating Brock Lesnar due to the size/believability factor but the fact that he got zero offense in was a joke. Even if it was a short 4 minute match, let him get SOMETHING in. Make the crowd think he has a chance for a minute before Brock shuts it down and F5s him. Ricochet never recovered after this. Its easy to remember he also gave Brock the low blow before McIntyre eliminated him in the Rumble. Ricochet looked set for a huge push around this time... Then he basically fell into jobber terriority, wearing crap attires and getting punked by The Hurt Business and Retribution every week in matches nobody cared about. With a guy with Ricochet's skillset, it's so easy too, every time Brock tries a suplex, he flips out of it, Brock goes for a strike, he ducks/dodges, but Brock is relentless and when he DOES catch him, that's it. David v Goliath 101 but with a guy who's basically a gymnast so you can do more spectacular spots for it. I'd throw a whole PPV into the mix, Fully Loaded 2000 was basically sold on having 3 main events, 3 established guys against 3 up and comers... and al 3 lost, you have that premise, you need at least 1 new guy to go over. Kurt looked SO out of his depth it really undermined his push that year, and Jericho had a big moment on RAW, was the most complete of the 3, just on the cusp of the main event... then HHH happened and back to the midcard for a year.
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Post by Muskrat on Sept 21, 2021 16:34:17 GMT -5
While it didn't do massive damage to him cause he was over as hell anyway, Jericho beating Triple H only to have the result overturned later on was a bad idea. After they saw the reaction Jericho got they should have stuck with him as champion even if just for a short run Totally disagree on that one, Hunter was at his peak as a heel and Rock was at his peak as a babyface and they were on a collision course. And Hunter was in the middle of a relatively long reign by Attitude Era standards, saving the win for Rock (and a returning special enforcer Austin) was the right move. What was boneheaded was not realising Jericho should be pushed to the moon that summer but they seemed focused on Angle and Jericho got lost in the shuffle.
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Post by fortknox on Sept 21, 2021 20:07:21 GMT -5
"Dr. Death's loss to Bart Gunn killed his chances at being a main eventer in the WWF."
Co-signed Jim Ross and Jim Cornette
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Post by jason1980s on Sept 21, 2021 20:24:33 GMT -5
"Dr. Death's loss to Bart Gunn killed his chances at being a main eventer in the WWF."Co-signed Jim Ross and Jim Cornette I'm surprised it got this far to mention him. I knew who Dr. Death was but WWF literally did nothing to promote him. He got a card in the Comic Images card set around this time but I don't remember him being on TV AT ALL until Brawl For All. I'm guessing JR was able to convince management that fans would know who he was right off the bat but I doubt fans cared. Pierre was another one who hadn't been on TV for months. I think highly of all these guys (except Bradshaw) who had the guts to go at it but gosh, literally every guy on here was a jobber to the stars and a lot of guys got seriously injured and their careers stalled for a while. By time Jakks came out with Dr. Death's toy (early 1999) no one knew who this guy was and the toy was a shelf warmer for a year or two. If JR seriously thought Dr. Death was a PPV main eventer against Austin, I doubt Vince thought that. He probably held Dr. Death's signing over JR's head for a long time and it's really sad that once former friends disliked each other all because JR thought Dr. Death was some bad @$$ who could steam roll over anyone and Dr. Death himself thought so too. I think they reconciled when Dr. Death was sick but still, pretty sad this stupid tournament came between them.
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Post by Muskrat on Sept 21, 2021 20:28:14 GMT -5
"Dr. Death's loss to Bart Gunn killed his chances at being a main eventer in the WWF."Co-signed Jim Ross and Jim Cornette I'm surprised it got this far to mention him. I knew who Dr. Death was but WWF literally did nothing to promote him. He got a card in the Comic Images card set around this time but I don't remember him being on TV AT ALL until Brawl For All. I'm guessing JR was able to convince management that fans would know who he was right off the bat but I doubt fans cared. Pierre was another one who hadn't been on TV for months. I think highly of all these guys (except Bradshaw) who had the guts to go at it but gosh, literally every guy on here was a jobber to the stars and a lot of guys got seriously injured and their careers stalled for a while. By time Jakks came out with Dr. Death's toy (early 1999) no one knew who this guy was and the toy was a shelf warmer for a year or two. If JR seriously thought Dr. Death was a PPV main eventer against Austin, I doubt Vince thought that. He probably held Dr. Death's signing over JR's head for a long time and it's really sad that once former friends disliked each other all because JR thought Dr. Death was some bad @$$ who could steam roll over anyone and Dr. Death himself thought so too. I think they reconciled when Dr. Death was sick but still, pretty sad this stupid tournament came between them. Dr. Death was a bad fit for 98/99 WWF. Well, he was kind of a bad fit for any era of WWF but especially then. He was never gonna have a serious main event run no matter how badly Jim Ross wanted it. It’s not an indictment of Williams, or of JR for believing in him, but it wasn’t gonna work out. Ken Shamrock couldn’t crack the main event scene and was more charismatic and more currently relevant as a badass shooter.
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Post by jason1980s on Sept 21, 2021 20:54:43 GMT -5
Dr. Death was a bad fit for 98/99 WWF. Well, he was kind of a bad fit for any era of WWF but especially then. He was never gonna have a serious main event run no matter how badly Jim Ross wanted it. It’s not an indictment of Williams, or of JR for believing in him, but it wasn’t gonna work out. Ken Shamrock couldn’t crack the main event scene and was more charismatic and more currently relevant as a badass shooter. You're right. I am a huge Jim Ross fan but the guys he loves most were not a good fit for WWF at the time. I'm sure he had a hand in signing Furnas and LaFon and their talent was great, in ring but they literally had no charisma. JR was so excited to see them at Survivor Series 1996 but after that no fans gave a crap about them. Even at 1997 Survivor Series when they turned heel, I doubt even the Canadian fans cared.
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Post by Muskrat on Sept 21, 2021 20:59:44 GMT -5
Dr. Death was a bad fit for 98/99 WWF. Well, he was kind of a bad fit for any era of WWF but especially then. He was never gonna have a serious main event run no matter how badly Jim Ross wanted it. It’s not an indictment of Williams, or of JR for believing in him, but it wasn’t gonna work out. Ken Shamrock couldn’t crack the main event scene and was more charismatic and more currently relevant as a badass shooter. You're right. I am a huge Jim Ross fan but the guys he loves most were not a good fit for WWF at the time. I'm sure he had a hand in signing Furnas and LaFon and their talent was great, in ring but they literally had no charisma. JR was so excited to see them at Survivor Series 1996 but after that no fans gave a crap about them. Even at 1997 Survivor Series when they turned heel, I doubt even the Canadian fans cared. I am Canadian, I didn’t give two f***s about Furnas and LaFon in WWF. They were awesome outside WWF, definitely learned to appreciate them once I started watching non WWF/WCW wrestling, but once again a style that was never gonna mesh properly in New York. Especially not then. Some guys just aren’t gonna make it in WWE, regardless of how talented they are.
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Post by jason1980s on Sept 21, 2021 21:12:04 GMT -5
Spot on! And I feel like that PPV was probably the real beginning of a change with WWF and the fans. There were so many new guys coming in but the fans didn't wan't Furnas and LaFon, they didn't want Rocky My-A-Via, they didn't want Flash Funk and they probably didn't want legends like Lou Albano coming out and doing nothing nor Jimmy Snuka being an extra in a match. This was probably the beginning of the Attitude Era though the company didn't know it.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
The Ultimate Arbiter of Right And Wrong
Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,027
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Sept 22, 2021 1:05:08 GMT -5
While it didn't do massive damage to him cause he was over as hell anyway, Jericho beating Triple H only to have the result overturned later on was a bad idea. After they saw the reaction Jericho got they should have stuck with him as champion even if just for a short run Totally disagree on that one, Hunter was at his peak as a heel and Rock was at his peak as a babyface and they were on a collision course. And Hunter was in the middle of a relatively long reign by Attitude Era standards, saving the win for Rock (and a returning special enforcer Austin) was the right move. What was boneheaded was not realising Jericho should be pushed to the moon that summer but they seemed focused on Angle and Jericho got lost in the shuffle. That's why I went with my pic, it felt like a change in attitude, pardon the pun. Austin is catching fire, lets push him to the top, Rock is catching fire, let's push him to the top, Mankind is... HHH is... Jericho is catching fire.... Well that's cute. Angle is catching fire, and?? Before it felt like if someone was doing good, they'd succeed, mid 2000 was the first time it felt like there was a bit of a glass ceiling.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Sept 22, 2021 1:55:11 GMT -5
I don't entirely disagree about Jericho in 2000 but I think the problem was doing that angle at all if they weren't going to follow it up. Kurt Angle was ABSOLUTELY the right choice for the title focus that summer.
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4real
Wade Wilson
Posts: 27,652
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Post by 4real on Sept 22, 2021 4:20:23 GMT -5
Man, this still pisses me off. Not the fact that Ricochet LOST... Because as much as I love Ricochet, I honestly think he had no business beating Brock Lesnar due to the size/believability factor but the fact that he got zero offense in was a joke. Even if it was a short 4 minute match, let him get SOMETHING in. Make the crowd think he has a chance for a minute before Brock shuts it down and F5s him. Ricochet never recovered after this. Its easy to remember he also gave Brock the low blow before McIntyre eliminated him in the Rumble. Ricochet looked set for a huge push around this time... Then he basically fell into jobber terriority, wearing crap attires and getting punked by The Hurt Business and Retribution every week in matches nobody cared about. With a guy with Ricochet's skillset, it's so easy too, every time Brock tries a suplex, he flips out of it, Brock goes for a strike, he ducks/dodges, but Brock is relentless and when he DOES catch him, that's it. David v Goliath 101 but with a guy who's basically a gymnast so you can do more spectacular spots for it. I'd throw a whole PPV into the mix, Fully Loaded 2000 was basically sold on having 3 main events, 3 established guys against 3 up and comers... and al 3 lost, you have that premise, you need at least 1 new guy to go over. Kurt looked SO out of his depth it really undermined his push that year, and Jericho had a big moment on RAW, was the most complete of the 3, just on the cusp of the main event... then HHH happened and back to the midcard for a year. I would have had Angle go over Taker. But that’s it. Doesn’t matter if Angle wins clean just have him win. They could have done the Kane heel turn here. I don’t think Jericho was really damaged by this loss or any loss on PPV at this point (he lost a lot on PPV in 2000) he was way over. Plus you have all 3 guys who were in the triple threat at Summerslam winning on this show it would make sense. I was a massive Benoit fan at this point and the loss also didn’t damage him at all and the fake title win enhanced him in my eyes anyway. Rock was the guy at that point he should have had the belt.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Sept 22, 2021 4:25:45 GMT -5
With a guy with Ricochet's skillset, it's so easy too, every time Brock tries a suplex, he flips out of it, Brock goes for a strike, he ducks/dodges, but Brock is relentless and when he DOES catch him, that's it. David v Goliath 101 but with a guy who's basically a gymnast so you can do more spectacular spots for it. I'd throw a whole PPV into the mix, Fully Loaded 2000 was basically sold on having 3 main events, 3 established guys against 3 up and comers... and al 3 lost, you have that premise, you need at least 1 new guy to go over. Kurt looked SO out of his depth it really undermined his push that year, and Jericho had a big moment on RAW, was the most complete of the 3, just on the cusp of the main event... then HHH happened and back to the midcard for a year. I would have had Angle go over Taker. But that’s it. Doesn’t matter if Angle wins clean just have him win. They could have done the Kane heel turn here. I don’t think Jericho was really damaged by this loss or any loss on PPV at this point (he lost a lot on PPV in 2000) he was way over. Plus you have all 3 guys who were in the triple threat at Summerslam winning on this show it would make sense. I was a massive Benoit fan at this point and the loss also didn’t damage him at all and the fake title win enhanced him in my eyes anyway. Rock was the guy at that point he should have had the belt. The Benoit title fakeout was a great piece of business, and doing it again later at Unforgiven was even better. Great way to set up Rock vs. Benoit once more time with a stipulation where a reverse decision cannot happen. But then it just led to nothing, not even another singles title match. Hell, Benoit wasn't even involved in the angle when Mick Foley got fired as GM.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 234,926
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Sept 22, 2021 5:09:59 GMT -5
Some recent WWE Women's ones:
I know they're both still heavily pushed when they're on TV... but Charlotte and Sasha hot potatoing the belt like 10 times in three months killed both of them to me pretty badly and killed the women's title's credibility.
Asuka constantly being jobbed out as a champion to the likes of Charlotte will never cease to piss me off.
Shayna Baszlor losing to Becky at Mania. Only now YEARS later is she looking like a threat again.
Charlotte beating Rhea Ripley at Mania. In the end not only did it hurt Rhea for a long time but it now serves no purpose. Charlotte's NXT Women's title reigns are no longer counted by the company. And the end game was Charlotte just ended up beating her for the RAW title anyway after they found themselves in the same realm again... so frankly it was a double whammy.
Jury's still entirely out on this but Bianca losing to Becky in seconds at Summerslam at the peak of her popularity has done nothing to help her and I seriously don't know how she recovers fully from it when she still has to feud with Becky after the fact.
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Sept 22, 2021 6:09:15 GMT -5
Man, this still pisses me off. Not the fact that Ricochet LOST... Because as much as I love Ricochet, I honestly think he had no business beating Brock Lesnar due to the size/believability factor but the fact that he got zero offense in was a joke. Even if it was a short 4 minute match, let him get SOMETHING in. Make the crowd think he has a chance for a minute before Brock shuts it down and F5s him. Ricochet never recovered after this. Its easy to remember he also gave Brock the low blow before McIntyre eliminated him in the Rumble. Ricochet looked set for a huge push around this time... Then he basically fell into jobber terriority, wearing crap attires and getting punked by The Hurt Business and Retribution every week in matches nobody cared about. With a guy with Ricochet's skillset, it's so easy too, every time Brock tries a suplex, he flips out of it, Brock goes for a strike, he ducks/dodges, but Brock is relentless and when he DOES catch him, that's it. David v Goliath 101 but with a guy who's basically a gymnast so you can do more spectacular spots for it. I'd throw a whole PPV into the mix, Fully Loaded 2000 was basically sold on having 3 main events, 3 established guys against 3 up and comers... and al 3 lost, you have that premise, you need at least 1 new guy to go over. Kurt looked SO out of his depth it really undermined his push that year, and Jericho had a big moment on RAW, was the most complete of the 3, just on the cusp of the main event... then HHH happened and back to the midcard for a year. Remember the trial by combat in Game of Thrones? That.
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Post by ianriccaboni on Sept 22, 2021 6:32:50 GMT -5
"Dr. Death's loss to Bart Gunn killed his chances at being a main eventer in the WWF."Co-signed Jim Ross and Jim Cornette And then Bart wins the whole thing, does almost nothing on TV for months, and gets fed to Butterbean. Sigh.
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Post by 'Foretold' Joker on Sept 22, 2021 6:44:42 GMT -5
Talking of title matches that don't last very long, how do we feel about Diesel vs Bob Backlund? I feel this set the trend for this sort of match yet because Backlund was on the way back down it doesn't seem to be as much of an issue. You could add Tazz to the HHH list of stars who could have done more if they hadn't lost to him pile. Adam Bomb never recovered from the squash to Earthquake at WM X. Adam Bomb never got out of the gates in the first place, even before he had his match with Quake at WM X.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Sept 22, 2021 7:41:24 GMT -5
You could add Tazz to the HHH list of stars who could have done more if they hadn't lost to him pile I'm always open to HHH criticism but this one is really pushing it. He had limited involvement with HHH, was booked terribly throughout his time in WWF, and generally just wasn't very well suited to the wrestling style. IMO Triple H is in the clear with this one!
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Sept 22, 2021 8:40:25 GMT -5
You could add Tazz to the HHH list of stars who could have done more if they hadn't lost to him pile I'm always open to HHH criticism but this one is really pushing it. He had limited involvement with HHH, was booked terribly throughout his time in WWF, and generally just wasn't very well suited to the wrestling style. IMO Triple H is in the clear with this one! I'd agree. Tazz's bigger issue was he broke down physically within the first year of his run.
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