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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2021 23:03:01 GMT -5
Yeah the only times where we can truly say someone is really really really done is when we get comments in the dirtsheets about them having so much heat that there's issue to where they won't push them. I mean at that point people aren't on tv. That's the perfect situation for the face to have a "they've been pushed beyond their breaking point, they can't take it anymore look at them go" situation where they go off on the heel until the heel escapes looking shocked that the face did it. Even in that segment Toni was holding back her feelings as Charlotte walked away. This company's done that many times in the past.
Yeah it sucked and made Toni look bad but it's still in that realm of "heel makes face angry so many times until the face breaks out" territory they always do. All you gotta do is have the crowd cheer her as Charlotte's playing with her and then have her go off on Charlotte ending with Charlotte escaping the ring. Even Reigns got that on Triple H in 2016 which resulted in mad cheers for Reigns in one of the worst periods for him.
If the company was booked correctly, then no, she isn’t done. But at the same time, it’s WWE, putting a newer woman, against CHARLOTTE. Her odds are not great to say the least. She probably won't beat Charlotte but to think Toni Storm is done/dead and an eternal loser, after people have been through far worse than her? Nah, I'm not buying it. I think that's just assuming the worst because it's WWE and people would rather assume the worst than get any hopes up and or think logically. Even if Toni loses to Charlotte, if people think that she won't have a wild moment prior to the match where she goes crazy on Charlotte and Charlotte escapes with the belt as the announcers say Toni's had enough and she's tired of her...that's just Babyface Booking 101. Even when the babyfaces have lost the match that's happened. This feud is basically a "hey Toni Storm's a future star, here's her first outing" type of thing.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Nov 26, 2021 23:04:09 GMT -5
Just this year we were told to “see how it played out” when they put Charlotte against Rhea again, and Nikki.
And it ended like crap in both cases.
Until WWE can let go of this obsession that her and Becky need to be position so far above everyone else, nothing will improve.
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Perd
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Post by Perd on Nov 26, 2021 23:04:21 GMT -5
TWO pies in the face? I’ve long said their scripts are copy and pastry.
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Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Nov 26, 2021 23:06:40 GMT -5
Rather than debate of the semantics of wrestlers being done, I wanna reiterate that they had the heel champ say what a loser the face is on the mic, then when the face attacks they hit the face with a pie twice with like two minutes between shots and the face did absolutely nothing but cry, even as the heel stood there asking for a fight and left very slowly. It’s just WWE booking to get HEAT cause we gotta get HEAT on this heel all they can think about is HEAT. Like besides Damien Priest and Bianca Belair, I can’t think of a single time WWE’s been like “how do we get this guy/girl” over as a babyface this year. It’s always them looking like punk bitches while the heel looks better.
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Demented
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What am I doing here?
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Post by Demented on Nov 26, 2021 23:13:31 GMT -5
#SaveTonisAss
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Bang Bang Bart
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Nov 26, 2021 23:14:20 GMT -5
Rather than debate of the semantics of wrestlers being done, I wanna reiterate that they had the heel champ say what a loser the face is on the mic, then when the face attacks they hit the face with a pie twice with like two minutes between shots and the face did absolutely nothing but cry, even as the heel stood there asking for a fight and left very slowly. It’s just WWE booking to get HEAT cause we gotta get HEAT on this heel all they can think about is HEAT. Like besides Damien Priest and Bianca Belair, I can’t think of a single time WWE’s been like “how do we get this guy/girl” over as a babyface this year. It’s always them looking like punk bitches while the heel looks better. And even Bianca hit a snag with the whole Summerslam 26 seconds fiasco, though she's recovered from that nicely.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 26, 2021 23:20:14 GMT -5
I caught the video of the segment, and woof. The problem isn't inherently that segment, it's the fear that they aren't going to book a follow-up that helps Toni get back from where she was. Faces in modern WWE typically come off worse after run-ins with its top heels because they don't think about the damage it does to the face to run these sorts of segments, they just barge forward in the name of getting heat. Charlotte didn't run away as Toni tried to take swings at her, she casually strode off while Toni stood there fuming. That's signaling that her talk of Toni not being on her level isn't just trash talk; she believes it and she carries herself with it. If you don't follow that up and have Toni prove that she's wrong for doing that, then the segment was a net loss for Toni in overness, and I'd rather wait for Godot than wait for WWE to rehab the damage it does to people in segments like that.
Like the problem isn't "they made Toni look bad". It's "they made Toni look a kind of bad usually reserved for people they don't often care to make look good".
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Nov 26, 2021 23:22:42 GMT -5
If the company was booked correctly, then no, she isn’t done. But at the same time, it’s WWE, putting a newer woman, against CHARLOTTE. Her odds are not great to say the least. She probably won't beat Charlotte but to think Toni Storm is done/dead and an eternal loser, after people have been through far worse than her? Nah, I'm not buying it. I think that's just assuming the worst because it's WWE and people would rather assume the worst than get any hopes up and or think logically. Even if Toni loses to Charlotte, if people think that she won't have a wild moment prior to the match where she goes crazy on Charlotte and Charlotte escapes with the belt as the announcers say Toni's had enough and she's tired of her...that's just Babyface Booking 101. Even when the babyfaces have lost the match that's happened. This feud is basically a "hey Toni Storm's a future star, here's her first outing" type of thing. Going crazy on Charlotte next week/month won't make up for that shit tonight. I normally try to see the sense in even the dumbest of things but that was character assassination type stuff. That was almost Bayley being too nice to use a kendo stick against Alexa levels of terrible babyface booking. Toni didn't even attempt to defend herself. It would be one thing if Charlotte took her out and injured her but a pie in the face was all it took to stop her and she just stood there and waited for another one. Why the hell didn't she swing for her or tackle her to the ground? Hell, on Raw we saw a similar thing with the veteran champ trying to bully the new babyface challenger but at least Liv fought back and sent Becky packing. That exact thing here would've sufficed. Charlotte throws the pie, Toni tackles her and they brawl around for a minute until referees break them apart. Anything would've been better than what we got.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2021 23:30:20 GMT -5
She probably won't beat Charlotte but to think Toni Storm is done/dead and an eternal loser, after people have been through far worse than her? Nah, I'm not buying it. I think that's just assuming the worst because it's WWE and people would rather assume the worst than get any hopes up and or think logically. Even if Toni loses to Charlotte, if people think that she won't have a wild moment prior to the match where she goes crazy on Charlotte and Charlotte escapes with the belt as the announcers say Toni's had enough and she's tired of her...that's just Babyface Booking 101. Even when the babyfaces have lost the match that's happened. This feud is basically a "hey Toni Storm's a future star, here's her first outing" type of thing. Going crazy on Charlotte next week/month won't make up for that shit tonight. I normally try to see the sense in even the dumbest of things but that was character assassination type stuff. That was almost Bayley being too nice to use a kendo stick against Alexa levels of terrible babyface booking. Toni didn't even attempt to defend herself.
It would be one thing if Charlotte took her out and injured her but a pie in the face was all it took to stop her and she just stood there and waited for another one. Why the hell didn't she swing for her or tackle her to the ground? Hell, on Raw we saw a similar thing with the veteran champ trying to bully the new babyface challenger but at least Liv fought back and sent Becky packing. That exact thing here would've sufficed. Charlotte throws the pie, Toni tackles her and they brawl around for a minute until referees break them apart. Anything would've been better than what we got. And Bayley recovered from that. This post is exactly what I'm saying about people jumping the gun with this "hey (insert person) is dead in the water now" stuff. We've seen people like Bayley go through far worse situations, hell situations that lasted far longer as well and yet they overcame it no matter how bad it was. Even then you had people saying that was it for Bayley like now with Toni. Like I said in my first post here, this was bad but she definitely isn't dead by any means.
Just because someone goes through something bad doesn't mean they're done. Wrestling doesn't work like that.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Nov 26, 2021 23:34:45 GMT -5
It just is so bad. They understand that "Wrestler gets pie to face" is a thing, they understand that a heel bully is a thing, etc, but they do not know how to put it together anymore.
Like, I am not sure if there's even one booker involved in this segment that's salvageable. They don't know what wrestling is or how it works anymore. No one got over, not one accomplished anything. The division would have been better served if they pointed the camera at the mat for the duration of the segment and showed nothing at all.
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asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by asuka007 on Nov 26, 2021 23:39:35 GMT -5
It’s just WWE booking to get HEAT cause we gotta get HEAT on this heel all they can think about is HEAT. Like besides Damien Priest and Bianca Belair, I can’t think of a single time WWE’s been like “how do we get this guy/girl” over as a babyface this year. It’s always them looking like punk bitches while the heel looks better. And even Bianca hit a snag with the whole Summerslam 26 seconds fiasco, though she's recovered from that nicely. Even now, she never got payback on Becky and has not won a lot of matches on TV in recent months. I don’t think Bianca is BETTER off now than she was pre-losing to Becky.
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Bang Bang Bart
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Nov 26, 2021 23:42:20 GMT -5
It just is so bad. They understand that "Wrestler gets pie to face" is a thing, they understand that a heel bully is a thing, etc, but they do not know how to put it together anymore. Like, I am not sure if there's even one booker involved in this segment that's salvageable. They don't know what wrestling is or how it works anymore. No one got over, not one accomplished anything. The division would have been better served if they pointed the camera at the mat for the duration of the segment and showed nothing at all. It's certainly a choice for WWE to continually piss off audiences already unsatisfied with their shitty business practices and unnecessary firings.
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Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Nov 26, 2021 23:46:12 GMT -5
It just is so bad. They understand that "Wrestler gets pie to face" is a thing, they understand that a heel bully is a thing, etc, but they do not know how to put it together anymore. Like, I am not sure if there's even one booker involved in this segment that's salvageable. They don't know what wrestling is or how it works anymore. No one got over, not one accomplished anything. The division would have been better served if they pointed the camera at the mat for the duration of the segment and showed nothing at all. It's the product of demanding that your writers not know wrestling andi nsisting you aren't wrestling and it doesn't count and if you know anything about wrestling you're a mark. The intricacies of how pro wrestling stories get told are lost on the dozens of writers who are supposed to take marching orders from a senile old man who has forgotten everything, so what you end up with is this hollow shell of what wrestling is that has the core components of wrestling, but which is missing so many of the things that gave it depth and what made those decisions matter, and is missing some parts here and there that it's supposed to have. It's like a nostalgia clone video game made by a studio who don't know how to chase the elements that they really loved so they produced a really empty feeling thing that superficially feels right but is lacking in too many other areas. Or like a college film trying to do Tarantino but with none of the cinematic language or, I shudder to say, 'restraint'. With the key difference being that in my examples, you've got people who are inexperienced and don't have tons of resources. With WWE, you have the biggest company in the world run by a man who's been doing it since the '80s. It doesn't even sound real.
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Post by smokinvokoun86 on Nov 26, 2021 23:46:18 GMT -5
It just is so bad. They understand that "Wrestler gets pie to face" is a thing, they understand that a heel bully is a thing, etc, but they do not know how to put it together anymore. Like, I am not sure if there's even one booker involved in this segment that's salvageable. They don't know what wrestling is or how it works anymore. No one got over, not one accomplished anything. The division would have been better served if they pointed the camera at the mat for the duration of the segment and showed nothing at all. I feel like the writers try to write the genre they think they are best at and try to cram it into wrestling and it never works. Like, this is something you write in a teen drama or soap opera. While not realizing that wrestling is an action show. It would be like if these writers wrote Die Hard and Hans Gruber threw a pie in John McClane’s face, laughed manically, and then just walked away while McClane just stood there looking sad with pie dripping down his face. Is that going to make you think of how badass and cool John McClane is?
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asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by asuka007 on Nov 26, 2021 23:48:55 GMT -5
I mean as annoying as the Becky/Liv stuff is, at the very least Liv got to punch Becky, and Becky sold it. Also Becky will take shortcuts and cheat to beat her opponents.
Charlotte never has to be truly embarrassed, rarely sells like she cares even if she is, and decisively cleanly defeats her opponents in the end so they gain nothing out of it.
It’s a terrible way to book a heel.
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Post by theironyuppie on Nov 27, 2021 0:00:34 GMT -5
While I think it's worth waiting for next week to see what happens next, I do think one basic mistake was doing a segment like that in Charlotte's home state. It's harder to create sympathy for Toni if the crowd's having a good time and cheering along.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Nov 27, 2021 0:05:40 GMT -5
Going crazy on Charlotte next week/month won't make up for that shit tonight. I normally try to see the sense in even the dumbest of things but that was character assassination type stuff. That was almost Bayley being too nice to use a kendo stick against Alexa levels of terrible babyface booking. Toni didn't even attempt to defend herself.
It would be one thing if Charlotte took her out and injured her but a pie in the face was all it took to stop her and she just stood there and waited for another one. Why the hell didn't she swing for her or tackle her to the ground? Hell, on Raw we saw a similar thing with the veteran champ trying to bully the new babyface challenger but at least Liv fought back and sent Becky packing. That exact thing here would've sufficed. Charlotte throws the pie, Toni tackles her and they brawl around for a minute until referees break them apart. Anything would've been better than what we got. And Bayley recovered from that. This post is exactly what I'm saying about people jumping the gun with this "hey (insert person) is dead in the water now" stuff. We've seen people like Bayley go through far worse situations, hell situations that lasted far longer as well. Like I said in my first post here, this was bad but she definitely isn't dead by any means.
Just because someone goes through something bad doesn't mean they're done. Wrestling doesn't work like that.
I think you're taking things a little too literally with people saying she's done, etc. No one's saying Toni is never going to amount to anything for the rest of her career because of this segment. Any chance of her being a top star on Smackdown in the short term look pretty damn bleak after seeing that tonight though. You say Bayley recovered but it took her two years and a heel turn to get back to the level she was pre-Alexa feud. Just because Bayley is okay in 2021 doesn't mean that Alexa feud didn't do a ton of damage to her. Just like Mark Henry for instance eventually becoming a world champion doesn't mean most of the booking he got before that wasn't terrible.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 0:08:18 GMT -5
And Bayley recovered from that. This post is exactly what I'm saying about people jumping the gun with this "hey (insert person) is dead in the water now" stuff. We've seen people like Bayley go through far worse situations, hell situations that lasted far longer as well. Like I said in my first post here, this was bad but she definitely isn't dead by any means.
Just because someone goes through something bad doesn't mean they're done. Wrestling doesn't work like that.
I think you're taking things a little too literally with people saying she's done, etc. No one's saying Toni is never going to amount to anything for the rest of her career because of this segment. Any chance of her being a top star on Smackdown in the short term look pretty damn bleak after seeing that tonight though. You say Bayley recovered but it took her two years and a heel turn to get back to the level she was pre-Alexa feud. Just because Bayley is okay in 2021 doesn't mean that Alexa feud didn't do a ton of damage to her. Just like Mark Henry for instance eventually becoming a world champion doesn't mean most of the booking he got before that wasn't terrible. How long have you been on this forum?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 0:08:41 GMT -5
Just this year we were told to “see how it played out” when they put Charlotte against Rhea again, and Nikki. And it ended like crap in both cases. Until WWE can let go of this obsession that her and Becky need to be position so far above everyone else, nothing will improve. Bit this time it might be different. Toni may actually hit her finishing move on the go-home segment.
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Post by TWERKIN' MAGGLE on Nov 27, 2021 0:14:35 GMT -5
I don't believe for one second Toni will ever get the upper hand on Charlotte in any meaningful way.
I've been told "wait and see" too many times.
Never believe WWE will do something good, that way you're pleasantly surprised when you fall ass backwards into a correct decision.
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