khali
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 4,593
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Post by khali on Nov 27, 2021 0:18:59 GMT -5
One bad angle does not inherently mean someone is done. But expecting WWE to have a good follow up to make Toni look better is . . . well, more then overly optimistic.
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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Nov 27, 2021 0:58:29 GMT -5
Going crazy on Charlotte next week/month won't make up for that shit tonight. I normally try to see the sense in even the dumbest of things but that was character assassination type stuff. That was almost Bayley being too nice to use a kendo stick against Alexa levels of terrible babyface booking. Toni didn't even attempt to defend herself.
It would be one thing if Charlotte took her out and injured her but a pie in the face was all it took to stop her and she just stood there and waited for another one. Why the hell didn't she swing for her or tackle her to the ground? Hell, on Raw we saw a similar thing with the veteran champ trying to bully the new babyface challenger but at least Liv fought back and sent Becky packing. That exact thing here would've sufficed. Charlotte throws the pie, Toni tackles her and they brawl around for a minute until referees break them apart. Anything would've been better than what we got. And Bayley recovered from that. This post is exactly what I'm saying about people jumping the gun with this "hey (insert person) is dead in the water now" stuff. We've seen people like Bayley go through far worse situations, hell situations that lasted far longer as well and yet they overcame it no matter how bad it was. Even then you had people saying that was it for Bayley like now with Toni. Like I said in my first post here, this was bad but she definitely isn't dead by any means.
Just because someone goes through something bad doesn't mean they're done. Wrestling doesn't work like that.
Bayley did bounce back but it took a heel turn and her being one of the few shining lights of the Pandemic era to do so.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 1:05:35 GMT -5
And Bayley recovered from that. This post is exactly what I'm saying about people jumping the gun with this "hey (insert person) is dead in the water now" stuff. We've seen people like Bayley go through far worse situations, hell situations that lasted far longer as well and yet they overcame it no matter how bad it was. Even then you had people saying that was it for Bayley like now with Toni. Like I said in my first post here, this was bad but she definitely isn't dead by any means.
Just because someone goes through something bad doesn't mean they're done. Wrestling doesn't work like that.
Bayley did bounce back but it took a heel turn and her being one of the few shining lights of the Pandemic era to do so. Yeah I agree and others I named in my first post took similar time as well. The point was that it isn't about the time it took, it's that people did recover regardless of how long or short it took so the whole "hey this person is dead in the water" comments are premature. We've just seen way worse this past decade.
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Chiral
Salacious Crumb
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Post by Chiral on Nov 27, 2021 1:08:02 GMT -5
Toni before the show: "I think I'm gonna get hit with a pie twice today." Toni after Smackdown:
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Post by theironyuppie on Nov 27, 2021 1:29:51 GMT -5
And Bayley recovered from that. This post is exactly what I'm saying about people jumping the gun with this "hey (insert person) is dead in the water now" stuff. We've seen people like Bayley go through far worse situations, hell situations that lasted far longer as well and yet they overcame it no matter how bad it was. Even then you had people saying that was it for Bayley like now with Toni. Like I said in my first post here, this was bad but she definitely isn't dead by any means.
Just because someone goes through something bad doesn't mean they're done. Wrestling doesn't work like that.
Bayley did bounce back but it took a heel turn and her being one of the few shining lights of the Pandemic era to do so.
Bayley got a MITB win, a cash-in, and a lengthy title reign even before the heel turn, which took a few months in turn to get good.
Also, the online-exclusive segment certainly seems to be playing with the idea that Charlotte's a big jerk who won't take Toni seriously (and demands her pay for dry-cleaning of a mess she helped create):
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Post by ISO Mid Thigh Pull on Nov 27, 2021 1:31:40 GMT -5
Is it short for Anthoni Storm
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 1:34:07 GMT -5
They can't book babyfaces. Simple as that.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Nov 27, 2021 1:49:09 GMT -5
My issue with "We were told THESE PEOPLE were done and look at how well they turned out!" is that yeah... they did... but then you ignore the dozens of other wrestlers that also fit that mold that died on the vine or are no longer with the company after said dying on the vine
It's a pattern and it's a relatively common pattern. Especially one with Charlotte opponents where almost no one looks good after feuding with her. Toni Storm has barely been used on WWE programming... this is how they basically presented a new challenger and a fresh face. Charlotte ran her down and then humiliated her twice BEGGING for a fight and Toni Storm just stood there covered in pie with a pissy boo boo face. That's killing someone before they even begin.
You CAN turn it around and you CAN book it better... but that's the thing... WWE usually doesn't. Even with the wrestlers who "were fine" in the end there are even a copious amounts of examples of them stumbling or not being the same after what is egregious booking that should have never been done in the first place damaging their careers and perceptions... and I know some people defend this to their grave but Kofi getting beat by Brock and his reaction to it for months afterward is a standout example.
The issue is they treated Toni like an afterthought for months... and now the one time they pay attention to her? They treat her like shit. It's not exactly confidence boosting for ANY fans of hers that want to believe she could come out of this for the better. Her first main roster program worth a damn is Charlotte and she's probably not gonna win and her first segment was an outright humiliating burial of her by Charlotte. I'm not shocked people think she's done even if it's hyperbole.
Ask Nikki ASH and Rhea Ripley how well getting run down by Charlotte went. Ask Bianca how much steam she lost getting punked by Becky at Summerslam. This shit sucks and the entire division feels like it's crashed and burned. Not really a surprise given who still has major positions in the company? But it still sucks when you continue to see shit like this. Peeps are just tired of it. All that talk about Evolution and Revolution sure ironic at this point.
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Heartbreaker
King Koopa
Is actually Bindi Irwin
RIP Punk's media scrum, Page 54, Muffins, Biting People Bad™ (2022 - 2022)
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Post by Heartbreaker on Nov 27, 2021 1:59:19 GMT -5
I honestly don't care cause she's probably gonna get released in a month. Cause f*** the LGBT and Aussie talent.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 2:00:43 GMT -5
Bayley did bounce back but it took a heel turn and her being one of the few shining lights of the Pandemic era to do so. Bayley got a MITB win, a cash-in, and a lengthy title reign even before the heel turn, which took a few months in turn to get good. Also, the online-exclusive segment certainly seems to be playing with the idea that Charlotte's a big jerk who won't take Toni seriously (and demands her pay for dry-cleaning of a mess she helped create):
Ahhhhhh yes, seems like it's going like the way I've stated. Anytime Charlotte underestimates and plays around with a babyface they end up surprising her and surpassing her expectations. We're going to get one of those situations where Toni's had enough and goes ballistic while Charlotte runs outta the ring. Whether Toni wins or loses isn't really the point of the storyline. The point seems to be that they're trying to show Toni as a rookie who when fired up, can fight a champion.
She's probably gonna lose but this type of storyline is pretty much the standard babyface storyline they give to these underdog babyfaces. In every one of them the heel eventually takes them seriously even if they do lose the match.
Good luck to Toni. She's pretty much getting the "Dean Ambrose faces new superstar so the office can see how the superstar is" test feud.
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Post by theironyuppie on Nov 27, 2021 2:11:26 GMT -5
My issue with "We were told THESE PEOPLE were done and look at how well they turned out!" is that yeah... they did... but then you ignore the dozens of other wrestlers that also fit that mold that died on the vine or are no longer with the company after said dying on the vine It's a pattern and it's a relatively common pattern. Especially one with Charlotte opponents where almost no one looks good after feuding with her. Toni Storm has barely been used on WWE programming... this is how they basically presented a new challenger and a fresh face. Charlotte ran her down and then humiliated her twice BEGGING for a fight and Toni Storm just stood there covered in pie with a pissy boo boo face. That's killing someone before they even begin. You CAN turn it around and you CAN book it better... but that's the thing... WWE usually doesn't. Even with the wrestlers who "were fine" in the end there are even a copious amounts of examples of them stumbling or not being the same after what is egregious booking that should have never been done in the first place damaging their careers and perceptions... and I know some people defend this to their grave but Kofi getting beat by Brock and his reaction to it for months afterward is a standout example. The issue is they treated Toni like an afterthought for months... and now the one time they pay attention to her? They treat her like shit. It's not exactly confidence boosting for ANY fans of hers that want to believe she could come out of this for the better. Her first main roster program worth a damn is Charlotte and she's probably not gonna win and her first segment was an outright humiliating burial of her by Charlotte. I'm not shocked people think she's done even if it's hyperbole. Ask Nikki ASH and Rhea Ripley how well getting run down by Charlotte went. Ask Bianca how much steam she lost getting punked by Becky at Summerslam. This shit sucks and the entire division feels like it's crashed and burned. Not really a surprise given who still has major positions in the company? But it still sucks when you continue to see shit like this. Peeps are just tired of it. All that talk about Evolution and Revolution sure ironic at this point.
I'll grant you Nikki, but Rhea was all over Raw on Monday and seems like she's getting set for a singles run.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Nov 27, 2021 2:19:44 GMT -5
There's nothing inherently wrong with a face getting hit with pies without relatiating. It should just relate to who that person is and their overall motivations and character traits. Is this what Toni would do?
Not a single person discussing this has been thinking about that, though, everyone's just "the face" and "the heel." This is of course completely appropriate, because that's entirely how the people writing it think about it. No one HAS distinct motivations.
It really just completely flummoxes me sometimes to sit down and remember how utterly the WWE fails at even the most basic and fundamental aspects of storytelling.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Nov 27, 2021 2:26:37 GMT -5
My issue with "We were told THESE PEOPLE were done and look at how well they turned out!" is that yeah... they did... but then you ignore the dozens of other wrestlers that also fit that mold that died on the vine or are no longer with the company after said dying on the vine It's a pattern and it's a relatively common pattern. Especially one with Charlotte opponents where almost no one looks good after feuding with her. Toni Storm has barely been used on WWE programming... this is how they basically presented a new challenger and a fresh face. Charlotte ran her down and then humiliated her twice BEGGING for a fight and Toni Storm just stood there covered in pie with a pissy boo boo face. That's killing someone before they even begin. You CAN turn it around and you CAN book it better... but that's the thing... WWE usually doesn't. Even with the wrestlers who "were fine" in the end there are even a copious amounts of examples of them stumbling or not being the same after what is egregious booking that should have never been done in the first place damaging their careers and perceptions... and I know some people defend this to their grave but Kofi getting beat by Brock and his reaction to it for months afterward is a standout example. The issue is they treated Toni like an afterthought for months... and now the one time they pay attention to her? They treat her like shit. It's not exactly confidence boosting for ANY fans of hers that want to believe she could come out of this for the better. Her first main roster program worth a damn is Charlotte and she's probably not gonna win and her first segment was an outright humiliating burial of her by Charlotte. I'm not shocked people think she's done even if it's hyperbole. Ask Nikki ASH and Rhea Ripley how well getting run down by Charlotte went. Ask Bianca how much steam she lost getting punked by Becky at Summerslam. This shit sucks and the entire division feels like it's crashed and burned. Not really a surprise given who still has major positions in the company? But it still sucks when you continue to see shit like this. Peeps are just tired of it. All that talk about Evolution and Revolution sure ironic at this point.
I'll grant you Nikki, but Rhea was all over Raw on Monday and seems like she's getting set for a singles run.
Granted Rhea looks like she has a higher ceiling... but that doesn't excuse how she floundered in NXT after she lost to Charlotte and then floundered on the main roster aimlessly for months... also after losing to Charlotte. Charlotte didn't help Rhea at all was my point and I can't think of many people who have actually benefitted from feuding with her. Whether that's the bookings fault or otherwise (Like her amazing non-chemistry in matches with Lacey Evans)
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Nov 27, 2021 2:46:49 GMT -5
There's nothing inherently wrong with a face getting hit with pies without relatiating. It should just relate to who that person is and their overall motivations and character traits. Is this what Toni would do? Not a single person discussing this has been thinking about that, though, everyone's just "the face" and "the heel." This is of course completely appropriate, because that's entirely how the people writing it think about it. No one HAS distinct motivations. It really just completely flummoxes me sometimes to sit down and remember how utterly the WWE fails at even the most basic and fundamental aspects of storytelling. WWE obviously has their set roles and writes the characters (to use the term generously) to fit those roles, instead of vice versa. Look at how babyface champions just become this stock babyface champion that literally anyone can play. Sure, it's handy for making the job as easy as possible (again, to be generous), but it's not creatively fulfilling. You write stories to fit the characters, not the other way around.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 27, 2021 2:50:39 GMT -5
My issue with "We were told THESE PEOPLE were done and look at how well they turned out!" is that yeah... they did... but then you ignore the dozens of other wrestlers that also fit that mold that died on the vine or are no longer with the company after said dying on the vineIt's a pattern and it's a relatively common pattern. Especially one with Charlotte opponents where almost no one looks good after feuding with her. Toni Storm has barely been used on WWE programming... this is how they basically presented a new challenger and a fresh face. Charlotte ran her down and then humiliated her twice BEGGING for a fight and Toni Storm just stood there covered in pie with a pissy boo boo face. That's killing someone before they even begin. You CAN turn it around and you CAN book it better... but that's the thing... WWE usually doesn't. Even with the wrestlers who "were fine" in the end there are even a copious amounts of examples of them stumbling or not being the same after what is egregious booking that should have never been done in the first place damaging their careers and perceptions... and I know some people defend this to their grave but Kofi getting beat by Brock and his reaction to it for months afterward is a standout example. The issue is they treated Toni like an afterthought for months... and now the one time they pay attention to her? They treat her like shit. It's not exactly confidence boosting for ANY fans of hers that want to believe she could come out of this for the better. Her first main roster program worth a damn is Charlotte and she's probably not gonna win and her first segment was an outright humiliating burial of her by Charlotte. I'm not shocked people think she's done even if it's hyperbole. Ask Nikki ASH and Rhea Ripley how well getting run down by Charlotte went. Ask Bianca how much steam she lost getting punked by Becky at Summerslam. This shit sucks and the entire division feels like it's crashed and burned. Not really a surprise given who still has major positions in the company? But it still sucks when you continue to see shit like this. Peeps are just tired of it. All that talk about Evolution and Revolution sure ironic at this point. You're misunderstanding this.
Saying "these guys overcame it, saying someone is dead now is too early" is not the same as "hey these people overcame it, everyone will overcome it." It's saying that saying someone is dead and buried right now when people who have overcame it have dealt with far worse, far more times and for far longer than said wrestler shows that is premature. It's Day One. That's not ignoring anyone who didn't overcome, that's saying you there's a chance you can overcome but there's also a chance you might not overcome. That's common sense because we've seen both sides but the reality is people are so in love with the company and hurt by them that they don't want to think about the chance someone can overcome it because they've just been hurt too much even if they've seen examples of people overcoming.
What's actually ignoring someone is saying "hey they're dead and buried" even though you clearly see people who went through worse overcome. That's ignoring those who actually overcame it and that's ignoring the good stuff (people overcoming) just to simply talk about the bad even though it doesn't make sense (like the people who still for some reason said Kofi was nothing and was never going to amount to anything during and after the gauntlet/Elimination Chamber matches even though if you saw the good in it you'd clearly see it was headed to a Kofi/Bryan WM match, that's based on the booking).
It's really not hard to understand that some people can overcome bad booking. We can give excuses all we want, we can say "well that chance is small", we can say "the company will still mess it up so I'm saying it won't happen", we can say "well yeah they overcame it but LOOK AT WHAT HAPPENED TO THEM 10 MONTHS LATER" like that somehow throws off them overcoming it when the reality is no, it doesn't throw it off, we can do a lot of stuff. That's just trying to spend more time on the negatives because that's what you're used to. Everybody goes through bad in this company and for however bad it is there's been people to overcome it. Saying "well most don't" doesn't mean " they all will fail."
Basically, you can overcome or you can still fail. My point is that it's premature to say someone is dead because they can still overcome it. We've seen examples of this happening. Saying it's not is just either forgetting these examples or lying about it because of emotions.
I know, I know, there's the "well they've messed this up" and "they've done this", there's the "look at how this person is doing now" and all the excuses/examples/stuff people give out but that's not going to take away somebody's big win and overcoming an obstacle. Whenever the Lesnar/Kofi stuff is brought up, it's always said in a way as if that's trying to take away from his championship win when that's just bullshit, like you literally brought that up and yeah that was bad but you cannot use that as an example to say Kofi didn't overcome obstacles and become WWE Champion. No matter how his loss was, his win was a far larger and greater moment not only in his career but also in the eyes of many people in the world. As a black man, that Lesnar stuff doesn't really mean much especially compared to his win. Even if I just looked at it in "wrestling specifics" or "fake wins and losses" and took away "what it meant", at the end of the day basically you overcoming a challenge and meeting another obstacle/loss doesn't mean that you didn't overcome that obstacle. A ton of people always try to overwrite any obstacle you overcome just because you get another challenge when no, that's crap and life just doesn't work that way. If my car broke down and I fixed it but now I have a flat tire, that doesn't take away from me fixing my car, it's just a new obstacle.
Overall, I'll just say this:
I just think people have been hurt so much by the company that their emotions are making them think people are dead and buried because that's how they feel watching the programming and hey, if that's how they feel then feel that way. Just stop watching. Why are yall still watching this company when you don't have faith in babyfaces overcoming things? Is it hate watching? If you think they mess everything up, if you think they can't book anything right and if you think a babyface can't even get a "wow they've made this heel surprised at their rage because they were being bullied" moment then at that point, I'm not sure why you watch. If you've got no hope, are always angry at it, think they'll always mess up and it's upsetting to you to the point where you can't see that coming.
I really don't know why yall still watch this company.
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asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by asuka007 on Nov 27, 2021 3:00:38 GMT -5
You cannot convince me that feeding Rhea to Charlotte two years in a row was good for her. Or that she is in a better position now than she was before that
Feuding with Charlotte pretty much never is good for her opponents. That is the biggest problem.
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Kalmia
King Koopa
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Post by Kalmia on Nov 27, 2021 3:14:05 GMT -5
Hitting people in the face with pies? What is this, the Krusty the Clown show?
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anglarite
Don Corleone
...enchantment!
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Post by anglarite on Nov 27, 2021 3:29:03 GMT -5
This will certainly put butts in seats...
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Woo
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Woo on Nov 27, 2021 4:54:32 GMT -5
Women wrestlers are throwing pies at each other in 2021?
Damnit Johnny Ace.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Nov 27, 2021 5:14:00 GMT -5
*After Charlotte beats Toni at Day 1*
Toni: "I made the biggest mistake of my life. I trained. Look at my ass. It's SO BIGGGGG! Maybe Toni Time is over. I'm nothing but a big piece of s**t! A big pouty pie faced piece of SHIT!"
Seriously I don't think that even that would bury her more then what happened to her tonight. Like I seriously wonder why they thought of any of this was a good idea and what it was supposed to accomplish? Oh yeah that's right HEAT! They might as well bring back Heat and instead of Raw and Smackdown rename them Monday Night Heat and Friday Night Heat since that's all they give a damn about.
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