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Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Dec 11, 2021 18:55:22 GMT -5
Let's not mince words; this is a feud about hitting people with pies and then Toni won by everyone's favourite booking trope, the opponent getting DQ'd for kicking too much ass.
Can't imagine why people aren't taking her seriously in this obvious filler feud.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2021 19:05:06 GMT -5
Yeah but my point was that she wasn't done and she's still not as she's going to somehow get a title shot. I mean it's her first real feud. I never said it was perfect lol. I think the thing after this past year is that the odds of her stumbling along into a decent career are about as equal to her stumbling along then getting released. I think she will get a Carmella style career if that makes any sense. Whether that's decent or not depends on the person. Judging reports some months ago they have big plans for her on the main roster. The problem isn't what they see in her because she's dope and they like her. The problem, which has been the problem these past 6 years, is what they see in the Four Horsewomen. It doesn't matter how much they like these newer women like Toni or Liv or even older ones like Asuka and Carmella. For some reason they hold these 4 women above all like they're Attitude Era talent and that allows them to crush these others. All because they changed women's wrestling in this company they for some reason think that's enough to push them above other women all the time (even years later) but its done in such a way that they think they aren't damaged by it. It's like Reigns compared to AJ Styles. Yeah they love AJ and he's always been amazing but that didn't stop him from losing to Reigns repeatedly in that feud they had years ago and it didn't stop him from having those rough spots at the beginning of 2016 that people got upset about. Same applies for Toni, Asuka, just all the others. Ronda was the only one to overcome that and that's because of who she was. For Toni tho this is just filler before their eventual title match where Toni is probably gonna lose but she will get that "hey Toni almost won" thing. It sucks, it'll lead to a better fued for her like against Zelina and Carmella or something but yep. That's what I feel. I just wish we'd move on from the Horsewomen. Bayley is like the only one who has no problem putting over talent like Bianca. They all need to be like her.
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Post by polarbearpete on Dec 11, 2021 20:01:57 GMT -5
Because they probably don’t want to push them into the full-on main event status yet and are going to build the Mania title matches involving Becky, Bianca, Charlotte and Sasha. But they at least gave her two pins at Survivor Series and now it getting an extended feud with Charlotte as pretty much her first feud on the main roster. And there lies the constant problem that multiple people have called out. Liv and Toni are just fodder that will be continually called losers and lose and then Charlotte and Becky will move on and where does it leave Toni and Liv? in no better place then where Shotzi is because her matches with Charlotte and Sasha have done wonders for her. It leaves them as midcarders for now. Toni and Shotzi are in their first years on the main roster, they don’t need to be winning the world title already. That kind of booking isn’t for everyone.
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 11, 2021 20:13:37 GMT -5
And there lies the constant problem that multiple people have called out. Liv and Toni are just fodder that will be continually called losers and lose and then Charlotte and Becky will move on and where does it leave Toni and Liv? in no better place then where Shotzi is because her matches with Charlotte and Sasha have done wonders for her. It leaves them as midcarders for now. Toni and Shotzi are in their first years on the main roster, they don’t need to be winning the world title already. That kind of booking isn’t for everyone. It shows part of the problem with WWE, that there just isn't much of a midcard to speak of, particularly for the women, just people the champs chewed up and spat out. Like you say, first year on the roster, they maybe shouldn't win title belts yet. Makes sense. Keep them separated from the champions then. They really should have some actual feuds and angles for people who aren't the champions, and while it's an issue with the men, it's made worse for the women because the only midcard titles available to them are the tag belts, and that approach definitely isn't going to work for everyone considering WWE's love of "lone wolf" faces who can't coexist with anyone for any length of time.
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Post by polarbearpete on Dec 11, 2021 20:16:59 GMT -5
It leaves them as midcarders for now. Toni and Shotzi are in their first years on the main roster, they don’t need to be winning the world title already. That kind of booking isn’t for everyone. It shows part of the problem with WWE, that there just isn't much of a midcard to speak of, particularly for the women, just people the champs chewed up and spat out. Like you say, first year on the roster, they maybe shouldn't win title belts yet. Makes sense. Keep them separated from the champions then. They really should have some actual feuds and angles for people who aren't the champions, and while it's an issue with the men, it's made worse for the women because the only midcard titles available to them are the tag belts, and that approach definitely isn't going to work for everyone considering WWE's love of "lone wolf" faces who can't coexist with anyone for any length of time. WWE’s booking of new women is frequently to put them with the champs right away to kind of legitimize them and introduce them to the audience. Might not be the best way, as opposed to building up slowly on the undercard. I do think you’re underselling how many women’s non-world title feuds they run though. Just recently they have had the Biance-Doudrop, Sasha-Shotzi, Naomi-Sonya feuds and Zelina and Carmella have been consistently on TV too even before they won the tag titles.
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Dec 11, 2021 20:38:35 GMT -5
Cole: "We called it, 'PIE FOR A PIE'" Pie for a pie leaves the whole world creamed
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 11, 2021 20:41:08 GMT -5
It shows part of the problem with WWE, that there just isn't much of a midcard to speak of, particularly for the women, just people the champs chewed up and spat out. Like you say, first year on the roster, they maybe shouldn't win title belts yet. Makes sense. Keep them separated from the champions then. They really should have some actual feuds and angles for people who aren't the champions, and while it's an issue with the men, it's made worse for the women because the only midcard titles available to them are the tag belts, and that approach definitely isn't going to work for everyone considering WWE's love of "lone wolf" faces who can't coexist with anyone for any length of time. WWE’s booking of new women is frequently to put them with the champs right away to kind of legitimize them and introduce them to the audience. Might not be the best way, as opposed to building up slowly on the undercard. I do think you’re underselling how many women’s non-world title feuds they run though. Just recently they have had the Biance-Doudrop, Sasha-Shotzi, Naomi-Sonya feuds and Zelina and Carmella have been consistently on TV too even before they won the tag titles. On this front, even if I think some of them have been starved for time, yeah, I'll grant that. I get the desire to legitimize them, but it does also make it feel like "Don't get it twisted, they are nowhere near their level" when the champ handily beats them and they plummet down the card. Sometimes, that's fine, but they probably should just hold off on that and let some of these women get some wins first in feuds they have no hope of getting much of anything over the champ in.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2021 21:55:09 GMT -5
"Pieback's a bitch!" was a brilliant line and I won't let anyone tell me otherwise.
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schma
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Post by schma on Dec 11, 2021 22:47:09 GMT -5
It shows part of the problem with WWE, that there just isn't much of a midcard to speak of, particularly for the women, just people the champs chewed up and spat out. Like you say, first year on the roster, they maybe shouldn't win title belts yet. Makes sense. Keep them separated from the champions then. They really should have some actual feuds and angles for people who aren't the champions, and while it's an issue with the men, it's made worse for the women because the only midcard titles available to them are the tag belts, and that approach definitely isn't going to work for everyone considering WWE's love of "lone wolf" faces who can't coexist with anyone for any length of time. WWE’s booking of new women is frequently to put them with the champs right away to kind of legitimize them and introduce them to the audience. Might not be the best way, as opposed to building up slowly on the undercard. I do think you’re underselling how many women’s non-world title feuds they run though. Just recently they have had the Biance-Doudrop, Sasha-Shotzi, Naomi-Sonya feuds and Zelina and Carmella have been consistently on TV too even before they won the tag titles. This is a genuine question. They're getting on TV for non-title feuds but is it worthwhile tv time? I ask this because I'm still trying to was down the bad taste of the entire queen's crown tournament being shorter than the average Undertaker entrance.
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Post by polarbearpete on Dec 12, 2021 0:06:30 GMT -5
WWE’s booking of new women is frequently to put them with the champs right away to kind of legitimize them and introduce them to the audience. Might not be the best way, as opposed to building up slowly on the undercard. I do think you’re underselling how many women’s non-world title feuds they run though. Just recently they have had the Biance-Doudrop, Sasha-Shotzi, Naomi-Sonya feuds and Zelina and Carmella have been consistently on TV too even before they won the tag titles. This is a genuine question. They're getting on TV for non-title feuds but is it worthwhile tv time? I ask this because I'm still trying to was down the bad taste of the entire queen's crown tournament being shorter than the average Undertaker entrance. Depends on the feud, some are worthwhile. I think Bianca-Doudrop has been very good for both of them so far. And I’m enjoying Sonya-Naomi, although it’s starting to drag with them never actually fighting yet. Queen’s tournament matches were too quick, but Zelina as queen is a fun gimmick. Sasha-Shotzi was a fun mini-feud though they may have moved on already.
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asuka007
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Post by asuka007 on Dec 12, 2021 0:58:48 GMT -5
Why was she the first person on her team eliminated? That was just stupid if you want to set her up for a title. The fact that neither Toni nor Liv was the sole survivor was just incredibly dumb booking. Because they probably don’t want to push them into the full-on main event status yet and are going to build the Mania title matches involving Becky, Bianca, Charlotte and Sasha. But they at least gave her two pins at Survivor Series and now it getting an extended feud with Charlotte as pretty much her first feud on the main roster. That first part is precisely the problem. Charlotte vs. Sasha has been done before. Becky vs. Bianca has been done multiple times. This company needs to make new TOP stars, but at best they’re pure filler until they just go back to the same old people and the same old matches/feuds that we’ve already seen many times before. It’s no wonder why it feels like the roster lacks many credible stars. I also find the argument that “well it’s their first year” argument to be very convincing. That did not stop WWE from putting belts on Charlotte, or Paige, of Alexa, or Ronda, etc really fast. If they see you as a star, they push you quick. With WWE, you do not want them to drag crap out for years because more often than not, it leads to them missing the moment, or them never paying it off. Vince changes his mind to often and they fire people on whims too much. Why not put the belt on Toni or Shotzi or Liv, etc? There’s really not good reason not to.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2021 1:10:50 GMT -5
Cole: "We called it, 'PIE FOR A PIE'" Pie for a pie leaves the whole world creamed I clearly need to start watching smackdown again
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Post by polarbearpete on Dec 12, 2021 7:03:16 GMT -5
Because they probably don’t want to push them into the full-on main event status yet and are going to build the Mania title matches involving Becky, Bianca, Charlotte and Sasha. But they at least gave her two pins at Survivor Series and now it getting an extended feud with Charlotte as pretty much her first feud on the main roster. That first part is precisely the problem. Charlotte vs. Sasha has been done before. Becky vs. Bianca has been done multiple times. This company needs to make new TOP stars, but at best they’re pure filler until they just go back to the same old people and the same old matches/feuds that we’ve already seen many times before. It’s no wonder why it feels like the roster lacks many credible stars. I also find the argument that “well it’s their first year” argument to be very convincing. That did not stop WWE from putting belts on Charlotte, or Paige, of Alexa, or Ronda, etc really fast. If they see you as a star, they push you quick. With WWE, you do not want them to drag crap out for years because more often than not, it leads to them missing the moment, or them never paying it off. Vince changes his mind to often and they fire people on whims too much. Why not put the belt on Toni or Shotzi or Liv, etc? There’s really not good reason not to. Because maybe they don’t see them at that level, either now or now and in the future? And obviously they saw Ronda, Charlotte, Alexa and Paige as bigger stars and gave them bigger pushes out of the gate. Not everyone should get a title reign. The title feels a lot less like a world title if every decent worker is given the belt right away. As far as making new stars, they just made Bianca very recently, and have been very protective of Rhea. And the Horsewomen are all young and still in their primes.
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 12, 2021 9:37:34 GMT -5
Because they probably don’t want to push them into the full-on main event status yet and are going to build the Mania title matches involving Becky, Bianca, Charlotte and Sasha. But they at least gave her two pins at Survivor Series and now it getting an extended feud with Charlotte as pretty much her first feud on the main roster. And there lies the constant problem that multiple people have called out. Liv and Toni are just fodder that will be continually called losers and lose and then Charlotte and Becky will move on and where does it leave Toni and Liv? in no better place then where Shotzi is because her matches with Charlotte and Sasha have done wonders for her. That does seem to be the issue. I’ve said this before, but on the surface there’s nothing wrong with having a core of 4-5 or however many tip top aces in a division or promotion; in fact, historically that’s been a very smart, productive arrangement for many companies. The problem is if those people are on top and not helping others get over in the process. Losing to an ace champion in a good match should still help raise the stock of a worthy challenger, and help them move on to more interesting stories and feuds going forward. Even if they never win the title, they should come out of a title match looking stronger and more legit in the eyes of the fans (there are limits on this, obviously, like Luger getting jobbed out too much in 80s title matches). At the same time, a promotion should always have an eye on the future and be thinking about who can step in to a top spot in case of injuries or departures. In 2016 NJPW had a “big four” of Tanahashi, Nakamura, Okada, and AJ Styles; shortly afterward Nakamura and Styles went to WWE. NJPW’s response was to take Tetsuya Naito and Kenny Omega, whom they had already been preparing for a top spot, and to catapult them to the main event, where they fit in seamlessly. They’ve since done similar work with Kota Ibushi, Jay White, Will Ospreay, and Shingo Takagi as Tanahashi and Naito begin to age out of their spots/start having a tougher time dealing with injuries. The vibe with WWE is that they don’t really do that anymore, and instead you’re an ace or you’re a nobody, and it’s hard to get excited for wrestlers WWE doesn’t immediately have ticketed for a top spot.
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schma
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Post by schma on Dec 12, 2021 10:39:07 GMT -5
And there lies the constant problem that multiple people have called out. Liv and Toni are just fodder that will be continually called losers and lose and then Charlotte and Becky will move on and where does it leave Toni and Liv? in no better place then where Shotzi is because her matches with Charlotte and Sasha have done wonders for her. That does seem to be the issue. I’ve said this before, but on the surface there’s nothing wrong with having a core of 4-5 or however many tip top aces in a division or promotion; in fact, historically that’s been a very smart, productive arrangement for many companies. The problem is if those people are on top and not helping others get over in the process. Losing to an ace champion in a good match should still help raise the stock of a worthy challenger, and help them move on to more interesting stories and feuds moving forward. Even if they never win the title, they should come out of a title match looking stronger and more legit in the eyes of the fans (there are limits on this, obviously, like Luger getting jobbed out too much in 80s title matches). At the same time, a promotion should always have an eye on the future and be thinking about who can step in to a top spot in case of injuries or departures. In 2016 NJPW had a “big four” of Tanahashi, Nakamura, Okada, and AJ Styles; shortly afterward Nakamura and Styles went to WWE. NJPW’s response was to take Tetsuya Naito and Kenny Omega, whom they had already been preparing for a top spot, and to catapult them to the main event, where they fit in seamlessly. They’ve since done similar work with Kota Ibushi, Jay White, Will Ospreay, and Shingo Takagi as Tanahashi and Naito begin to age out of their spots/start having a tougher time dealing with injuries. The vibe with WWE is that they don’t really do that anymore, and instead you’re an ace or you’re a nobody, and it’s hard to excited for wrestlers WWE doesn’t immediately have ticketed for a top spot. This is exactly it. There are a few non-title feuds going on for the women right now but that is the exception more than the rule. In both men's and women's we've been taught that the only thing that matters is being a world champion. Not we don't all buy that but it certainly affects the way we see stars. It's hard to keep cheering for someone when they barely get more than a 3 minutes match once in a while if at all. That combined with WWE failing at the look good in defeat really pushes this top champ or bust mentality.
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Post by evilhomer on Dec 12, 2021 12:20:02 GMT -5
I can't get over that Cole repeatedly said that Flair OVER-estimated Toni. No you flipping moron, Flair UNDER-estimated Toni; Flair went in over-confident and Toni had better abilities and put up more of a fight than she was expecting. This is textbook commentating 101, putting over the underdog babyface.
But no, this idiot tells us that her abilities were over-estimated. Oh, okay, so Toni is even less of an opponent that Flair was expecting and it took even less effort to beat the shit out of her. Has Adam Graves been giving you commentating burial tips Mr. Cole?
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Post by HMARK Center on Dec 12, 2021 12:20:43 GMT -5
That does seem to be the issue. I’ve said this before, but on the surface there’s nothing wrong with having a core of 4-5 or however many tip top aces in a division or promotion; in fact, historically that’s been a very smart, productive arrangement for many companies. The problem is if those people are on top and not helping others get over in the process. Losing to an ace champion in a good match should still help raise the stock of a worthy challenger, and help them move on to more interesting stories and feuds moving forward. Even if they never win the title, they should come out of a title match looking stronger and more legit in the eyes of the fans (there are limits on this, obviously, like Luger getting jobbed out too much in 80s title matches). At the same time, a promotion should always have an eye on the future and be thinking about who can step in to a top spot in case of injuries or departures. In 2016 NJPW had a “big four” of Tanahashi, Nakamura, Okada, and AJ Styles; shortly afterward Nakamura and Styles went to WWE. NJPW’s response was to take Tetsuya Naito and Kenny Omega, whom they had already been preparing for a top spot, and to catapult them to the main event, where they fit in seamlessly. They’ve since done similar work with Kota Ibushi, Jay White, Will Ospreay, and Shingo Takagi as Tanahashi and Naito begin to age out of their spots/start having a tougher time dealing with injuries. The vibe with WWE is that they don’t really do that anymore, and instead you’re an ace or you’re a nobody, and it’s hard to excited for wrestlers WWE doesn’t immediately have ticketed for a top spot. This is exactly it. There are a few non-title feuds going on for the women right now but that is the exception more than the rule. In both men's and women's we've been taught that the only thing that matters is being a world champion. Not we don't all buy that but it certainly affects the way we see stars. It's hard to keep cheering for someone when they barely get more than a 3 minutes match once in a while if at all. That combined with WWE failing at the look good in defeat really pushes this top champ or bust mentality. I even think they could work around that if they had a story in mind for every wrestler. Like, to cite NJPW again, that’s a promotion where a lot of times you’re either challenging for a title or else not having a really defined feud a lot of the time. It doesn’t hurt the product much, though, because typically each wrestler has an ongoing story they’re looking to tell or character development that they might be able to flesh out when moments for it arise, like during G1 tournament season or other instances where they get some spotlight. This becomes a problem, though, if you book most of your roster to be static as characters, or only give them *any* character wrinkles when they’re in line for a title shot but then instantly forget about them the second they lose and don’t give them a chance to communicate their thoughts, aspirations, or vulnerabilities to the audience.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2021 14:40:14 GMT -5
I don’t know if it’s main roster make up and hair but she’s turning into a Flair/Carmella/Dana clone.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2021 15:18:12 GMT -5
I don’t know if it’s main roster make up and hair but she’s turning into a Flair/Carmella/Dana clone. The most bootyful woman in all of WWE?
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Dec 12, 2021 15:21:24 GMT -5
That first part is precisely the problem. Charlotte vs. Sasha has been done before. Becky vs. Bianca has been done multiple times. This company needs to make new TOP stars, but at best they’re pure filler until they just go back to the same old people and the same old matches/feuds that we’ve already seen many times before. It’s no wonder why it feels like the roster lacks many credible stars. I also find the argument that “well it’s their first year” argument to be very convincing. That did not stop WWE from putting belts on Charlotte, or Paige, of Alexa, or Ronda, etc really fast. If they see you as a star, they push you quick. With WWE, you do not want them to drag crap out for years because more often than not, it leads to them missing the moment, or them never paying it off. Vince changes his mind to often and they fire people on whims too much. Why not put the belt on Toni or Shotzi or Liv, etc? There’s really not good reason not to. Because maybe they don’t see them at that level, either now or now and in the future? And obviously they saw Ronda, Charlotte, Alexa and Paige as bigger stars and gave them bigger pushes out of the gate. Not everyone should get a title reign. The title feels a lot less like a world title if every decent worker is given the belt right away. As far as making new stars, they just made Bianca very recently, and have been very protective of Rhea. And the Horsewomen are all young and still in their primes. I agree that not everyone should be world champion and it devalues the title. Thing is though the women don't have a midcard title like the men do. So if they don't think Liv or Toni are World Champion material then what's their ceiling? It's either flounder aimlessly or get thrown into a random tag team that even if it somehow clicks will be split up in under a year. I think both are better then that and have a higher ceiling then that. Also while the 4HW are still young (I would kind of say that loosely with Becky and Charlotte with them turning 35 and 36 respectively early next year; both are still in real good shape though and probably have a lot left in the tank) they are old in TV years. Bayley has been on the main roster since 2016 and the other three 2015 and all have spent the majority of their time on top too or in Charlotte's case literally all of it. There comes a point where you got to start pushing some newer people and gradually phasing 4HW down a bit. Put it this way in early 2017 the top stars in the division were Charlotte, Becky, Sasha, Bayley, Alexa, Asuka, and Nia. Going into 2022 the top women are all the same except Bianca replacing Nia who also was still high on the card until getting released recently. So they created one new star in five years. That's not enough. I can't give you Rhea. She's protected now but they already really dropped the ball with her when they had her lose to Charlotte for no reason and she's really lost a lot of luster as a result. Toni, Liv, and Rhea should be the next batch they elevate to replace the 4HW as they are all in their mid 20's and have the ability however because of booking could get lost in the shuffle and passed over. Then who is going to take the mantle? Another thing is while NXT is in a youth moment it really doesn't apply to the women's division. If you look at most of the pushed women there they are all in their 30's and in the same age bracket as the 4HW and in Sasha's case actually all a little older. Io, Mandy, Dakota, Raquel are all 30 to 33. Only youngsters in their 20's with big potential are Cora Jade and Gigi Dolin.
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