|
Post by polarbearpete on Dec 12, 2021 16:49:06 GMT -5
Because maybe they don’t see them at that level, either now or now and in the future? And obviously they saw Ronda, Charlotte, Alexa and Paige as bigger stars and gave them bigger pushes out of the gate. Not everyone should get a title reign. The title feels a lot less like a world title if every decent worker is given the belt right away. As far as making new stars, they just made Bianca very recently, and have been very protective of Rhea. And the Horsewomen are all young and still in their primes. I agree that not everyone should be world champion and it devalues the title. Thing is though the women don't have a midcard title like the men do. So if they don't think Liv or Toni are World Champion material then what's their ceiling? It's either flounder aimlessly or get thrown into a random tag team that even if it somehow clicks will be split up in under a year. I think both are better then that and have a higher ceiling then that. Also while the 4HW are still young (I would kind of say that loosely with Becky and Charlotte with them turning 35 and 36 respectively early next year; both are still in real good shape though and probably have a lot left in the tank) they are old in TV years. Bayley has been on the main roster since 2016 and the other three 2015 and all have spent the majority of their time on top too or in Charlotte's case literally all of it. There comes a point where you got to start pushing some newer people and gradually phasing 4HW down a bit. Put it this way in early 2017 the top stars in the division were Charlotte, Becky, Sasha, Bayley, Alexa, Asuka, and Nia. Going into 2022 the top women are all the same except Bianca replacing Nia who also was still high on the card until getting released recently. So they created one new star in five years. That's not enough. I can't give you Rhea. She's protected now but they already really dropped the ball with her when they had her lose to Charlotte for no reason and she's really lost a lot of luster as a result. Toni, Liv, and Rhea should be the next batch they elevate to replace the 4HW as they are all in their mid 20's and have the ability however because of booking could get lost in the shuffle and passed over. Then who is going to take the mantle? Another thing is while NXT is in a youth moment it really doesn't apply to the women's division. If you look at most of the pushed women there they are all in their 30's and in the same age bracket as the 4HW and in Sasha's case actually all a little older. Io, Mandy, Dakota, Raquel are all 30 to 33. Only youngsters in their 20's with big potential are Cora Jade and Gigi Dolin. The tag titles can be used as that “mid card”-like title if they don’t want to add more titles. But it’s really not necessary when they just run meaningful storylines in the undercard like they’ve been doing for some time. Naomi-Sonya, Bianca-Doudrop, Alexa’s whole Fiend-gimmick was away from the title, Sonya-Mandy-Otis, Doudrop-Eva, Lacey-Charlotte, Queen Zelina, Carmella’s face mask gimmick, were all storylines off the top of my head that were away from the title in the last year or two. There are probably more I’m forgetting, too. Maybe they can do more of that but I watch every week and I don’t get the title or bust feeling from watching.
|
|
|
Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Dec 12, 2021 17:09:43 GMT -5
I agree that not everyone should be world champion and it devalues the title. Thing is though the women don't have a midcard title like the men do. So if they don't think Liv or Toni are World Champion material then what's their ceiling? It's either flounder aimlessly or get thrown into a random tag team that even if it somehow clicks will be split up in under a year. I think both are better then that and have a higher ceiling then that. Also while the 4HW are still young (I would kind of say that loosely with Becky and Charlotte with them turning 35 and 36 respectively early next year; both are still in real good shape though and probably have a lot left in the tank) they are old in TV years. Bayley has been on the main roster since 2016 and the other three 2015 and all have spent the majority of their time on top too or in Charlotte's case literally all of it. There comes a point where you got to start pushing some newer people and gradually phasing 4HW down a bit. Put it this way in early 2017 the top stars in the division were Charlotte, Becky, Sasha, Bayley, Alexa, Asuka, and Nia. Going into 2022 the top women are all the same except Bianca replacing Nia who also was still high on the card until getting released recently. So they created one new star in five years. That's not enough. I can't give you Rhea. She's protected now but they already really dropped the ball with her when they had her lose to Charlotte for no reason and she's really lost a lot of luster as a result. Toni, Liv, and Rhea should be the next batch they elevate to replace the 4HW as they are all in their mid 20's and have the ability however because of booking could get lost in the shuffle and passed over. Then who is going to take the mantle? Another thing is while NXT is in a youth moment it really doesn't apply to the women's division. If you look at most of the pushed women there they are all in their 30's and in the same age bracket as the 4HW and in Sasha's case actually all a little older. Io, Mandy, Dakota, Raquel are all 30 to 33. Only youngsters in their 20's with big potential are Cora Jade and Gigi Dolin. The tag titles can be used as that “mid card”-like title if they don’t want to add more titles. But it’s really not necessary when they just run meaningful storylines in the undercard like they’ve been doing for some time. Naomi-Sonya, Bianca-Doudrop, Alexa’s whole Fiend-gimmick was away from the title, Sonya-Mandy-Otis, Doudrop-Eva, Lacey-Charlotte, Queen Zelina, Carmella’s face mask gimmick, were all storylines off the top of my head that were away from the title in the last year or two. There are probably more I’m forgetting, too. Maybe they can do more of that but I watch every week and I don’t get the title or bust feeling from watching. They have done better at incorporating midcard feuds out of the title picture. However the problem is nobody gets anything from those feuds as they usually have their legs cut off right after. Mandy beat Sonya at Summerslam and then..........gets put in another tag team with Dana Brooke. Doudrop squashes Eva a few times to get even for months of being demeaned and is getting over as a face......only to turn right back heel. Liv beats Carmella on a PPV........and then pointlessly loses subsequent rematches on TV killing her momentum going into a title program with Becky in which we're now somehow supposed to buy her having any chance. A lot of it is more them being terrible at booking faces however that's a completely different topic.
|
|
asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,803
|
Post by asuka007 on Dec 13, 2021 0:03:31 GMT -5
That first part is precisely the problem. Charlotte vs. Sasha has been done before. Becky vs. Bianca has been done multiple times. This company needs to make new TOP stars, but at best they’re pure filler until they just go back to the same old people and the same old matches/feuds that we’ve already seen many times before. It’s no wonder why it feels like the roster lacks many credible stars. I also find the argument that “well it’s their first year” argument to be very convincing. That did not stop WWE from putting belts on Charlotte, or Paige, of Alexa, or Ronda, etc really fast. If they see you as a star, they push you quick. With WWE, you do not want them to drag crap out for years because more often than not, it leads to them missing the moment, or them never paying it off. Vince changes his mind to often and they fire people on whims too much. Why not put the belt on Toni or Shotzi or Liv, etc? There’s really not good reason not to. Because maybe they don’t see them at that level, either now or now and in the future? And obviously they saw Ronda, Charlotte, Alexa and Paige as bigger stars and gave them bigger pushes out of the gate. Not everyone should get a title reign. The title feels a lot less like a world title if every decent worker is given the belt right away. As far as making new stars, they just made Bianca very recently, and have been very protective of Rhea. And the Horsewomen are all young and still in their primes. 1. WWE are not good at this. Saying “they don’t see them as top stars” isn’t a good defense because, they suck at building new stars. 2. Brining Rhea up is really not helping as they’ve bungled her astonishingly bad this year as well.
|
|
|
Post by polarbearpete on Dec 13, 2021 10:29:36 GMT -5
Because maybe they don’t see them at that level, either now or now and in the future? And obviously they saw Ronda, Charlotte, Alexa and Paige as bigger stars and gave them bigger pushes out of the gate. Not everyone should get a title reign. The title feels a lot less like a world title if every decent worker is given the belt right away. As far as making new stars, they just made Bianca very recently, and have been very protective of Rhea. And the Horsewomen are all young and still in their primes. 1. WWE are not good at this. Saying “they don’t see them as top stars” isn’t a good defense because, they suck at building new stars. 2. Brining Rhea up is really not helping as they’ve bungled her astonishingly bad this year as well. I don’t see it that way. I think they’re actually fairly efficient at making new stars considering how much turnover there has been on their roster (male and female). When they want someone to be a top star, a lot of the time they get them to that level. There are exceptions to that of course. Most complaints are that the person the fans want pushed isn’t getting the push. But they wanted to push and made stars out of all four horsewomen, Asuka, Bianca, Alexa, Ronda (obviously a star coming in too), Paige. I’m pretty sure they will do the same for Ripley. I just think they probably don’t see Liv, Shotzi and Toni as stars they want to push at that level (whether permanently or at least right now).
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2021 13:26:06 GMT -5
Hey, at least Toni got herself a title match, where Charlotte dominated her, dominated her some more, decided to cheat, and then managed to win cleanly anyway.
But, at least Toni got in a roll-up, so hooray!
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2021 13:37:05 GMT -5
Yea she was a heel here but what the hell happened to uber confident Toni we got here.
Now it just looks like she can't do anything without nearly busting out in tears , got humiliated , got jobbed out.
Not to say she cannot ever recover but she is right now complete damaged goods and especially during a time where perception is most certainly reality.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2021 15:49:59 GMT -5
Cant wait to see her in AEW
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2021 16:40:13 GMT -5
Assuming it's over (which it should be since Toni lost clean), this feud was complete garbage and made Toni look like a dork. They really know how to make cool wrestlers lame, don't they?
|
|
asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,803
|
Post by asuka007 on Dec 25, 2021 16:55:35 GMT -5
They are pathologically incapable of committing to pushing new stars truly these days.
They ALWAYS end up going back to the same old same old.
|
|
|
Post by This Player Hating Mothman on Dec 25, 2021 18:38:13 GMT -5
Welp. See you guys when she gets released, then
|
|
|
Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Dec 25, 2021 18:43:47 GMT -5
For the record, I'm totally fine with Toni losing. Part of the issue was in the build up which didn't get her anywhere with the live crowd as evidenced by her subdued reactions. She lost on TV a few times and got a pie thrown in her face. Even if she got revenge, it's not a great look. The other issue was how she handled the loss. Characters can cry. That's fine. But there's a time and place for it. Toni hasn't been on this long journey to the belt. To most fans, she just got here. This wasn't some blood feud either. Toni never told us why this title means so much to her. So to me, it just seems like she's taking a loss really hard and she comes across like a loser. I'd rather her just take the loss and cut a promo next week telling us how she's going to come back stronger and that she won't quit until she gets the title. Plus it doesn't help that Liv just cried on the other show a few weeks ago. It's also not great to only have the women cry for these angles.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2021 18:46:01 GMT -5
Welp. See you guys when she gets released, then WWE is in no position to fire her because if their womens division on the main roster was not dire enough as is. But if she walks away and there is possibility Dakota also walks away if we take her tweet I posted to hear oh boy.
|
|
warden
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,358
|
Post by warden on Dec 25, 2021 18:49:43 GMT -5
It was a good try, Toni. But sometimes we come short of our goals. Point is don't give up. You just need to appie yourself more...
|
|
|
Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Dec 25, 2021 18:50:37 GMT -5
Welp. See you guys when she gets released, then WWE is in no position to fire her because if their womens division on the main roster was not dire enough as is. But if she walks away and there is possibility Dakota also walks away if we take her tweet I posted to hear oh boy. That didn't stop them from firing Ruby.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2021 18:53:21 GMT -5
WWE is in no position to fire her because if their womens division on the main roster was not dire enough as is. But if she walks away and there is possibility Dakota also walks away if we take her tweet I posted to hear oh boy. That didn't stop them from firing Ruby. Oh yea nothing will stop them from continually making stupid choices but they are in an even more dire situation with their women then IMO when they fired Ruby.
|
|
asuka007
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,803
|
Post by asuka007 on Dec 25, 2021 18:54:39 GMT -5
The issue isn’t just yet losing (and ask Rhea and Nikki how much losing to Charlotte “helped” them, and that was just this year. It was HOW the feud went as well.
They never treated Toni likes credible threat. And Charlotte never felt like she was in much trouble during the match either.
|
|
|
Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Dec 25, 2021 22:09:41 GMT -5
I wonder if Toni coming out of this in a worse position has more to do with creative or Charlotte being selfish. I say that because other then the weird stuff with the pies there's a lot of parallels with the Becky/Liv feud on Raw in that it's established super pushed heel against young up and comer face who every one knows has no chance in hell and while that feud hasn't been great shakes either I think Liv hasn't been booked as badly as Toni was (at least not yet anyways) in that at least Becky has sold for her, let her get the better of her in some physical altercations, and had to cheat to beat her. Toni has probably looked weaker and that is despite the fact that unlike Liv with Becky they've actually let her beat Charlotte a few times. Granted one was a kicking too much ass DQ but the other was a pinfall in a tag match which you think would be a big win for her and yet it hasn't because going by what I've read here and online reports Charlotte has apparently been eating her up, cutting off her comebacks, and making her look like a job girl.
It also kind of shows the difference between Becky and Charlotte. Becky is more protected then Charlotte in that she pretty much never jobs and actually going over her in a match is next to impossible but she also is at least willing to sell more and make her opponents look good and not look a piece of crap before she beats. Charlotte there's a better chance you'll at least get win over her in a non title match but at the same time win, lose, or draw she's not going to sell much and just guzzle you and make you look like crap. I mean it's not beneficial to work with either one of them but I would say Becky is probably the lesser of two evils.
|
|
|
Post by eJm on Dec 25, 2021 22:16:09 GMT -5
I wonder if Toni coming out of this in a worse position has more to do with creative or Charlotte being selfish. I say that because other then the weird stuff with the pies there's a lot of parallels with the Becky/Liv feud on Raw in that it's established super pushed heel against young up and comer face who every one knows has no chance in hell and while that feud hasn't been great shakes either I think Liv hasn't been booked as badly as Toni was (at least not yet anyways) in that at least Becky has sold for her, let her get the better of her in some physical altercations, and had to cheat to beat her. Toni has probably looked weaker and that is despite the fact that unlike Liv with Becky they've actually let her beat Charlotte a few times. Granted one was a kicking too much ass DQ but the other was a pinfall in a tag match which you think would be a big win for her and yet it hasn't because going by what I've read here and online reports Charlotte has apparently been eating her up, cutting off her comebacks, and making her look like a job girl. It also kind of shows the difference between Becky and Charlotte. Becky is more protected then Charlotte in that she pretty much never jobs and actually going over her in a match is next to impossible but she also is at least willing to sell more and make her opponents look good and not look a piece of crap before she beats. Charlotte there's a better chance you'll at least get win over her in a non title match but at the same time win, lose, or draw she's not going to sell much and just guzzle her opponents and make them look like crap. I mean it's not beneficial to work with either one of them but I would say Becky is probably the lesser of two evils. Honestly, it really does seem like it’s a creative thing then either of them, which seems weird considering what you’re saying here and I’d also argue a management thing since, if Charlotte is as bad as has been alleged (and WWE has a history of making people out to be worse than they are to the ‘sheets so, honestly, I’ll believe it when I see it), they’d have at least tried to get it out of her or drop her a bit but if anything, they only seem to encourage said behavior and revolve the product around it. Like, they made it a part of the Becky/Charlotte Survivor Series match so it’s either the world’s worst work or they desperately want those two to be Bret/Shawn soooo bad.
|
|
|
Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Dec 25, 2021 22:30:08 GMT -5
I wonder if Toni coming out of this in a worse position has more to do with creative or Charlotte being selfish. I say that because other then the weird stuff with the pies there's a lot of parallels with the Becky/Liv feud on Raw in that it's established super pushed heel against young up and comer face who every one knows has no chance in hell and while that feud hasn't been great shakes either I think Liv hasn't been booked as badly as Toni was (at least not yet anyways) in that at least Becky has sold for her, let her get the better of her in some physical altercations, and had to cheat to beat her. Toni has probably looked weaker and that is despite the fact that unlike Liv with Becky they've actually let her beat Charlotte a few times. Granted one was a kicking too much ass DQ but the other was a pinfall in a tag match which you think would be a big win for her and yet it hasn't because going by what I've read here and online reports Charlotte has apparently been eating her up, cutting off her comebacks, and making her look like a job girl. It also kind of shows the difference between Becky and Charlotte. Becky is more protected then Charlotte in that she pretty much never jobs and actually going over her in a match is next to impossible but she also is at least willing to sell more and make her opponents look good and not look a piece of crap before she beats. Charlotte there's a better chance you'll at least get win over her in a non title match but at the same time win, lose, or draw she's not going to sell much and just guzzle her opponents and make them look like crap. I mean it's not beneficial to work with either one of them but I would say Becky is probably the lesser of two evils. Honestly, it really does seem like it’s a creative thing then either of them, which seems weird considering what you’re saying here and I’d also argue a management thing since, if Charlotte is as bad as has been alleged (and WWE has a history of making people out to be worse than they are to the ‘sheets so, honestly, I’ll believe it when I see it), they’d have at least tried to get it out of her or drop her a bit but if anything, they only seem to encourage said behavior and revolve the product around it. Like, they made it a part of the Becky/Charlotte Survivor Series match so it’s either the world’s worst work or they desperately want those two to be Bret/Shawn soooo bad. She's a chosen one. Chosen ones get longer ropes and unless it's something very extreme, get away with crap more. I think the only reason they were maybe somewhat annoyed if the rumors are true with that whole belt segment is her apparently being difficult pissed off Becky the only woman on the roster they love more then her. They don't give a crap if she eats up young midcarders that they likely aren't going to do anything with anyways. Like do you think if Toni complained and made a scene about her that they would take her side like they did with Becky? No way. It does seem watching her matches especially since she came back about a year ago that she's not very giving. Which if she's not being selfish I don't get why else she would not be more giving as while she's tall and bigger then most it's not like she's presented as a monster type character either who is meant to just shrug off blows and steam roll over people. In ring she's a technique type who does athletic stuff like the moonsault and is just a very good wrestler. It's not like she's supposed to be this unstoppable beast like Nia Jax or Awesome Kong. Also even size wize like if you compare her to Toni there really isn't that much of a difference. Charlotte is taller but weight wise I would say they are about even especially since it looks like she's come back Charlotte's slimmed down a bit and is more leaner and toned now. As far as them wanting her and Becky being the new Shawn and Bret I wonder which one is which. Of the two they favor Becky more like they favored Shawn more but Becky also apparently has more of the backing of the locker room like Bret did.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2021 22:41:34 GMT -5
It is interesting how both title feuds mirror each other but yet both accomplish the goal of completely shitting oh the women that should be being elevated...one more than the other of course.
Liv looks bad because of her lack of ability especially with promos and not completely on the booking where as the booking of Toni has been completely detrimental to her.
|
|