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Post by James Fabiano on Dec 31, 2021 11:23:42 GMT -5
The biggest false narrative I usually see in the IWC is this idea that the belts are accomplishments. Being around the business for a little while and seeing how things operate backstage, you would be considered a huge mark if you treated a title win like an achievement. Title belts are seen as props. Infact, some wrestlers didn't even want to win a title because it meant they would have to carry it around everywhere. I know this might come as a shock to a lot of people cause its fun to get invested in the stories and celebrate when your favorite reaches the top of the mountain... But the real winners are those who make the most money. That's why I'm sure the likes of Roddy Piper and Scott Hall never lost any sleep over winning any fake belts. Does this change my mentality and enjoyment as a fan? Not really. I'm just a little bit more aware of the mindset of the business now. I can still enjoy wrestling and pretend it's real. I can still celebrate when Liv Morgan wins the title, just like I celebrated when Rocky Balboa won the title in Rocky 2. Thank you! This has been a BIG problem with the IWC in AEW. There's the WWE idea that if you don't have gold then you're not getting pushed or used. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people say how AEW is underutilized people because they are not getting a hot shot to the world belt. Danielson has been fine, Punk has been fine, hell MJF is seen as one of if not the biggest heel in the company and he's yet to get gold as far as I know. Not everyone needs a belt to be legitimized. And this was what helped kill The Fiend's push too. Use him like they did with the Finn match, as an attraction, and that's fine. When they thrust Wyatt into the Universal title picture the month or so after was when problems began. Including but not limited to the non-finish at HIAC, and Goldberg winning at Crown Jewel or whatever it was.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2021 11:26:05 GMT -5
The biggest false narrative I usually see in the IWC is this idea that the belts are accomplishments. Being around the business for a little while and seeing how things operate backstage, you would be considered a huge mark if you treated a title win like an achievement. Title belts are seen as props. Infact, some wrestlers didn't even want to win a title because it meant they would have to carry it around everywhere. I know this might come as a shock to a lot of people cause its fun to get invested in the stories and celebrate when your favorite reaches the top of the mountain... But the real winners are those who make the most money. That's why I'm sure the likes of Roddy Piper and Scott Hall never lost any sleep over winning any fake belts. Does this change my mentality and enjoyment as a fan? Not really. I'm just a little bit more aware of the mindset of the business now. I can still enjoy wrestling and pretend it's real. I can still celebrate when Liv Morgan wins the title, just like I celebrated when Rocky Balboa won the title in Rocky 2. Thank you! This has been a BIG problem with the IWC in AEW. There's the WWE idea that if you don't have gold then you're not getting pushed or used. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people say how AEW is underutilized people because they are not getting a hot shot to the world belt. Danielson has been fine, Punk has been fine, hell MJF is seen as one of if not the biggest heel in the company and he's yet to get gold as far as I know. Not everyone needs a belt to be legitimized. I saw a lot of posts saying stuff like "If Hangman doesn't win the title, he's finished" Why? Maybe that's the role they could've written for him. "The guy who never won the big one" Some fans forget that every wrestler has a certain role assigned to them. It's like being cast in a TV show. You wouldn't complain about your extras job and demand to be cast as the main character, would you? You'd just do what you were assigned to do, get paid and go home. Fact is, it's not just fans either. Some of these wrestlers are the biggest marks going. I've seen some of them boasting about their fake wins and their fake titles and moaning about their fake losses and I'm just sitting here thinking... "Dude, if you want to be in control of your own destiny, go into real fighting. This is a performance. A dance. You can't have a fragile ego in this business. You have to be able to laugh at yourself." If I'm a wrestler and I'm given the gimmick of say... A lawyer or something. I wouldn't be thinking" Brother, this gimmick is going straight to the main event jack!", I'd be thinking "Okay, what storylines and feuds make the most sense for my role? Is it losing in 10 seconds at Wrestlemania and then suing my opponent? Okay, let's do that."... Cause that's what would make sense to someone who has no fragile ego.
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Post by sungod2020 on Dec 31, 2021 11:57:04 GMT -5
The biggest false narrative I usually see in the IWC is this idea that the belts are accomplishments. Being around the business for a little while and seeing how things operate backstage, you would be considered a huge mark if you treated a title win like an achievement. Title belts are seen as props. Infact, some wrestlers didn't even want to win a title because it meant they would have to carry it around everywhere. I know this might come as a shock to a lot of people cause its fun to get invested in the stories and celebrate when your favorite reaches the top of the mountain... But the real winners are those who make the most money. That's why I'm sure the likes of Roddy Piper and Scott Hall never lost any sleep over winning any fake belts. Does this change my mentality and enjoyment as a fan? Not really. I'm just a little bit more aware of the mindset of the business now. I can still enjoy wrestling and pretend it's real. I can still celebrate when Liv Morgan wins the title, just like I celebrated when Rocky Balboa won the title in Rocky 2. As far as belts being used as props go - yes and no, it depends how it's booked. I think not putting a championship(most notably a World championship) on a certain individual CAN be damaging to a company in the long run. Think of Hulk Hogan constantly chasing the AWA title, but never winning it. Verne Gagne naively thought the money was strictly in the chase and milked it for all he could. This was legit frustrating to Hogan and the fans, with Hogan eventually leaving the company to join the quickly expanding WWF where Vince Mcmahon capitalized on his popularity and the audience followed suit and were thus satisfied with The Hulkster finally getting recognition, albeit in another company. As far as when it was used as a prop goes, I'd say when career jobber Jinder Mahal won it to generate interest in India despite all the problems that came surrounding it. Say yes, the belt was merely a tool to cater to a market that didn't give a shit about pro wrestling, let alone someone who's pretending to be from there. That's like if they put the WWE championship on Xavier Woods to create an audience in Africa solely because he's Black. Politically correctness be damned. I do agree that the real winners are those who make the most money and I'd put someone like Roddy Piper or Jake Roberts, or hell "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan(the later two who have never won ANY titles in the WWF) above Jinder Mahal and certain others who were made World champion, but I do find it hard to believe they made more money than someone like Hulk Hogan, "Stone Cold" Steve Austin or The Rock. So yes, at least in theory, the man who's World champion is the top dog, both in kayfabe and in reality. I do feel there's variable factors to it on determining who the winner is in what is essentially a fake sport.
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Post by Jumpin' Jesse Walsh on Dec 31, 2021 12:08:13 GMT -5
I think wrestling discourse on the Internet in general has gradually narrowed what it means to be a "good wrestler" into such a strict and limited definition that it's become shortsighted and missing the point entirely.
I worry I'm not articulating that as well as I could, but whatever.
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Post by jason1980s on Dec 31, 2021 12:43:43 GMT -5
That Andre was always the lovable gentle giant. I’ve heard too many stories that make it sound like he could be a total prick when he put his mind to it; if he wasn’t taking liberties and beating the crap out of you in the ring, he was playing politics like Trips or Hogan and upending careers. And that’s disregarding some of his outrageous public behavior. Granted the man dealt with hassles most of us can’t imagine, particularly late in his life when he was in so much pain. But still no excuse. Since becoming an adult Andre has always fascinated me. I am the opposite of him, a very short man and for most of my childhood into junior year of high school I was bullied pretty badly. It's been quite a while since anyone mentions the "short jokes" and if it's anyone it's usually a co-worker buddy on rare occasion and we mess with each other time to time. When someone else does a joke or says "little man" and if it's not someone who knows me like that, it is aggravating and I let them know it is unacceptable so I get why Andre, as huge as he was and a worldwide celebrity was angry with the gawks. I also have loved traveling to North Carolina, not his area, and do dream of living in a place like he lived where I can find peace. With that being said, there were shades of nasty Andre when he was a good guy on TV with taking liberties with Sheik (Sheik said he hated Andre because he would refuse little kids autographs and from all I read and saw and heard of even heel Sheik, he loved signing autographs) and then there's the Kamala story of him being racist (pre Bad News racist story) along with shooing some video camera man out of the dressing room (via snitch Arnold Skaaland) and he even made Tim White leave the dressing room before they had become friends. I'm not sure I could develop a long term friendship with someone like that but Tim did. Andre probably needed Tim just as much as Tim needed Andre. As a bad guy, Andre was awful with fans wanting autographs. I get not wanting to sign during meals but he wouldn't even acknowledge fans other than a wave off. Fans could get close enough to take a photo of themselves looking at a camera with Andre looking away. With him being gone and never doing any type of shoot interview, we can only get other people's words on things but it's crazy to think he may have hated Savage not because of the way he treated Elizabeth but because he put baby oil on his body. And how he treated the Rockers was crappy too along with, once he got the heel strap outfit, he would use that to strangle opponents and how much was kayfabe versus Andre just being a jerk? I bet he was just afraid of guys more talented them him like the Rockers, as he got older and sicker, and them possibly getting a bigger spot with WWF. And of course, he purposely crapped in showers knowing some poor employee would have to clean it up. Like, there seriously is NO room anywhere to try and attempt to fit near a toilet? There's nothing else that can be done but crap in the shower? I'm glad we get more nice Andre stories than bad ones. I personally believe guys like Sheik or Kamala or Bad News over guys who probably sucked up to Andre and tow the WWE line but Andre didn't deserve to die so young nor have such health problems and be made to feel so different because he was so big.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
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Post by Sephiroth on Dec 31, 2021 14:09:46 GMT -5
That the eye candy factor has no place in women’s wrestling. It absolutely does. The trick is to use it on a way that adds, rather than detracts.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 31, 2021 14:40:14 GMT -5
That the eye candy factor has no place in women’s wrestling. It absolutely does. The trick is to use it on a way that adds, rather than detracts. Especially since eye candy is a big factor in marketing many of the dudes. Women and gay guys deserve their fun , too. There’s the good eye candy, like Asuka’s entrance, Miss Liz back in the day, acts like Thunder Rosa, Charlotte Flair and Bianca Bel Air with distinct looks who come off like stars. The bad eye candy that detracts are the two-minute bathroom break matches for women and the exploitive bras-and-butts-24/7 booking.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Dec 31, 2021 14:47:42 GMT -5
The biggest false narrative I usually see in the IWC is this idea that the belts are accomplishments. Being around the business for a little while and seeing how things operate backstage, you would be considered a huge mark if you treated a title win like an achievement. Title belts are seen as props. Infact, some wrestlers didn't even want to win a title because it meant they would have to carry it around everywhere. I know this might come as a shock to a lot of people cause its fun to get invested in the stories and celebrate when your favorite reaches the top of the mountain... But the real winners are those who make the most money. That's why I'm sure the likes of Roddy Piper and Scott Hall never lost any sleep over winning any fake belts. Does this change my mentality and enjoyment as a fan? Not really. I'm just a little bit more aware of the mindset of the business now. I can still enjoy wrestling and pretend it's real. I can still celebrate when Liv Morgan wins the title, just like I celebrated when Rocky Balboa won the title in Rocky 2. As far as belts being used as props go - yes and no, it depends how it's booked. I think not putting a championship(most notably a World championship) on a certain individual CAN be damaging to a company in the long run. Think of Hulk Hogan constantly chasing the AWA title, but never winning it. Verne Gagne naively thought the money was strictly in the chase and milked it for all he could. This was legit frustrating to Hogan and the fans, with Hogan eventually leaving the company to join the quickly expanding WWF where Vince Mcmahon capitalized on his popularity and the audience followed suit and were thus satisfied with The Hulkster finally getting recognition, albeit in another company. As far as when it was used as a prop goes, I'd say when career jobber Jinder Mahal won it to generate interest in India despite all the problems that came surrounding it. Say yes, the belt was merely a tool to cater to a market that didn't give a shit about pro wrestling, let alone someone who's pretending to be from there. That's like if they put the WWE championship on Xavier Woods to create an audience in Africa solely because he's Black. Politically correctness be damned. I do agree that the real winners are those who make the most money and I'd put someone like Roddy Piper or Jake Roberts, or hell "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan(the later two who have never won ANY titles in the WWF) above Jinder Mahal and certain others who were made World champion, but I do find it hard to believe they made more money than someone like Hulk Hogan, "Stone Cold" Steve Austin or The Rock. So yes, at least in theory, the man who's World champion is the top dog, both in kayfabe and in reality. I do feel there's variable factors to it on determining who the winner is in what is essentially a fake sport. My title philosophy is that all of the belts should be important and your tippy top stars should usually get at least one world championship run to take advantage of their popularity, but the show/promotion should be structured to where wrestlers can catch fire with crowds and become attractions outside of the title divisions. Like where a Hogan and Savage can benefit from carrying belts, while a Bossman can sell tickets and merchandise with just a hot grudge feud. Or in a modern sense, like when Randy Orton is out of the title picture and he has a legit good grudge with a Jeff Hardy, or Okada keeping himself busy with United Empire when he wasn’t chasing gold.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Dec 31, 2021 15:01:02 GMT -5
The biggest false narrative I usually see in the IWC is this idea that the belts are accomplishments. Being around the business for a little while and seeing how things operate backstage, you would be considered a huge mark if you treated a title win like an achievement. Title belts are seen as props. Infact, some wrestlers didn't even want to win a title because it meant they would have to carry it around everywhere. I know this might come as a shock to a lot of people cause its fun to get invested in the stories and celebrate when your favorite reaches the top of the mountain... But the real winners are those who make the most money. That's why I'm sure the likes of Roddy Piper and Scott Hall never lost any sleep over winning any fake belts. Does this change my mentality and enjoyment as a fan? Not really. I'm just a little bit more aware of the mindset of the business now. I can still enjoy wrestling and pretend it's real. I can still celebrate when Liv Morgan wins the title, just like I celebrated when Rocky Balboa won the title in Rocky 2. I'm sure some don't care about belts (I remember Nash making fun of Bret for caring more about being champion than getting a pay rise) but many do. I've seen too many people get emotional upon winning a title to believe none of them really care. Chris Benoit wasn't a good enough actor for that reaction at Wrestlemania 20 to be simply "in character" fully. More recently, Big E, his friends and his fans reaction to his world title win. Hell, Dana Brooke a few weeks ago won the 24/7 title, probably the most worthless title in all of wrestling, and she was emotional about winning her first ever title and had the whole locker room congratulating her.
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Post by sungod2020 on Dec 31, 2021 15:05:57 GMT -5
Mr. Perfect was suppose to win the 1990 Royal Rumble, but Hogan politicked his way into it. I don't know if that was true, but even if it was, it would only make sense to have Hogan win, especially headed into his Wrestlemania showdown against rising star Ultimate Warrior. Plus, he was wrapping up his feud with Hennig at the time so it was the most logical conclusion to it(though I think the blow-off was kinda sorta at the Saturday Night's Main Event after, which was tapped earlier in the month, but aired after, but if there was any purpose it served, it was to transition his rivalry solely to feud with Warrior.).
Plus, it's not like it hurt the flawless one's credibility either. Shortly after Wrestlemania VI, he won the vacant IC title in the tournament, and enjoyed a second reign becoming one of the greatest IC champions of all time. I feel just having a program, let alone being a runner-up in the Royal Rumble with him is a big career note.
I'm not going to deny Hogan was a dirty backstage politician at times, but based solely on what we see on TV, I thought it made sense for it to play out the way it did. I mean, he's Hulk Hogan, you can't job him out to everybody.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Dec 31, 2021 15:11:51 GMT -5
Gorilla Monsoon said Hulk didn't know the difference between a wristlock and a wrist watch on an A&E documentary, so that goes beyond an IWC narrative. Hulk had a hand full of impressive looking wrestling moves he could pull out when he needed to. He never looked very smooth when he did them, but it was fun to see him pull them out on rare occasion. Bret Hart also has said Hogan couldn't wrestle, but given Hulk is maybe the one person who messed with his capacity to do his job more than Shawn ever could have dreamed to, he may be a bit biased. I love Bret and will always defend his opinion but he's just wrong here. You don't get a nation of captivated audiences if you can't wrestle. Hogan sold like hell for his opponents and told a story like nobody else. It's just a different style of wrestling than what Bret did, but in the WWF they were equally valid.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2021 15:13:36 GMT -5
That the eye candy factor has no place in women’s wrestling. It absolutely does. The trick is to use it on a way that adds, rather than detracts. Especially since eye candy is a big factor in marketing many of the dudes. Women and gay guys deserve their fun , too. There’s the good eye candy, like Asuka’s entrance, Miss Liz back in the day, acts like Thunder Rosa, Charlotte Flair and Bianca Bel Air with distinct looks who come off like stars. The bad eye candy that detracts are the two-minute bathroom break matches for women and the exploitive bras-and-butts-24/7 booking. I hope I never see another T&A-tastic match ever again. Wrestling is full of beautiful women but looks should be used as the sizzle not the steak itself.
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Post by Zombie Mod on Dec 31, 2021 16:10:00 GMT -5
that if someone disagrees with you, they're part of the iwc hivemind.
in my time as a wrestling fan online, there hasn't been a single thing where people have 100% agreed on and I dont mean by the devil's advocate type replies or blatant trolls looking to get a rise out of people.
the hivemind is the biggest mythical narrative amongst wrestling fans.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2021 19:25:15 GMT -5
that if someone disagrees with you, they're part of the iwc hivemind. in my time as a wrestling fan online, there hasn't been a single thing where people have 100% agreed on and I don't mean by the devil's advocate type replies or blatant trolls looking to get a rise out of people. the hivemind is the biggest mythical narrative amongst wrestling fans. Yeah it's always interesting to see things like WWE continuously bring in decent numbers and money when 70% of the online wrestling community vehemently detests most of what is done. It also solidifies the fact that the perceived iwc may be the loudest voice but certainly not the biggest which is mind blowing because I really do not know many casual wrestling fans today.
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
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Post by Sephiroth on Jan 1, 2022 9:46:56 GMT -5
That the eye candy factor has no place in women’s wrestling. It absolutely does. The trick is to use it on a way that adds, rather than detracts. Especially since eye candy is a big factor in marketing many of the dudes. Women and gay guys deserve their fun , too. There’s the good eye candy, like Asuka’s entrance, Miss Liz back in the day, acts like Thunder Rosa, Charlotte Flair and Bianca Bel Air with distinct looks who come off like stars. The bad eye candy that detracts are the two-minute bathroom break matches for women and the exploitive bras-and-butts-24/7 booking. A scenario I think is perfect: A face like Asuka, Charlotte, Sasha, Ember Moon, etc. has a program with a vein, narcissistic heel like Goddess Alexa Bliss or the Iiconics. At some point the heel challenges the face to an eye candy style challenge like a bikini contest. The fave takes them up on it and wins the audience’s approval. The outraged heel goes for a sneak attack and gets cleared out of the ring. The fave celebrates by strutting around, playing up to the audience. The point being not just purely ogling women in skimpy outfits, as much as advancing the story and showing the hero beating the villain at their own game.
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Post by sungod2020 on Jan 1, 2022 12:10:13 GMT -5
that if someone disagrees with you, they're part of the iwc hivemind. in my time as a wrestling fan online, there hasn't been a single thing where people have 100% agreed on and I don't mean by the devil's advocate type replies or blatant trolls looking to get a rise out of people. the hivemind is the biggest mythical narrative amongst wrestling fans. Yeah it's always interesting to see things like WWE continuously bring in decent numbers and money when 70% of the online wrestling community vehemently detests most of what is done. It also solidifies the fact that the perceived iwc may be the loudest voice but certainly not the biggest which is mind blowing because I really do not know many casual wrestling fans today. These days, with the business being so exposed and the internet as big as it's become, I find it virtually impossible to be a casual fan. In the Rock n Wrestling and Attitude Eras, casual fans were more prominent, perhaps well into the Ruthless Aggression years. Nowadays with twitter, 1000 videos explaining in great detail why current WWE sucks, and shoot interviews becoming so easily accessible, you wouldn't have time to form your own opinion and get sucked right into the smarks galaxy. I believe someone said smarks helped AEW become a success which makes sense since Cody Rhodes has pandered to them, such as the time he destroyed a King's throne with, what else, a sledgehammer. Call me old fashion, while I feel having brainless marks who think it's real can get annoying at times and they've thankfully gone the way of the dodo, being TOO informed about the inner workings kinda kills suspension of disbelief with the show. When I've discussed wrestling with my friends nowadays(who were casual fans in the Attitude Era), I prefer that happy medium where it's mostly in kayfabe, though I don't mind pulling the curtain a little bit. For example, when I was reminiscing the Attitude Era with one of my buddies, we were discussing the sexual misadventures of Mark Henry that they made him do all that embarassing stuff to get him out of his contract, or that Mae Young bitch slapped Bubba Ray Dudley to powerbomb her through a table. I mean, I don't try to pretend it's real when I'm with them, but I don't find it necessary to discuss everything that has happened backstage. The horrors and shadiness of the business is already known without reading a dirt sheet. Thankfully, I stopped watching it a long time ago due to the content they've been putting out(plus it being too homogenized and overproduced) that I don't have to put up with smarks in live crowds to ruin whatever enjoyment I've had left.
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Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Jan 2, 2022 18:37:00 GMT -5
that if someone disagrees with you, they're part of the iwc hivemind. in my time as a wrestling fan online, there hasn't been a single thing where people have 100% agreed on and I don't mean by the devil's advocate type replies or blatant trolls looking to get a rise out of people. the hivemind is the biggest mythical narrative amongst wrestling fans. Yeah it's always interesting to see things like WWE continuously bring in decent numbers and money when 70% of the online wrestling community vehemently detests most of what is done. It also solidifies the fact that the perceived iwc may be the loudest voice but certainly not the biggest which is mind blowing because I really do not know many casual wrestling fans today. I try to talk for a few minutes with anyone that comes up to my table at shows. 80% of the people that come up only watch WWE and maybe AEW. They might post a tiny bit about either on their FB page but are far from being part of the IWC. Now also part of that might be I'm in a rural area,in a state that ranks last or near to last on education. But at least from what I have seen with my own eyes the real IWC makes up a tiny tiny portion of the wrestling audience.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jan 2, 2022 19:06:13 GMT -5
Yeah it's always interesting to see things like WWE continuously bring in decent numbers and money when 70% of the online wrestling community vehemently detests most of what is done. It also solidifies the fact that the perceived iwc may be the loudest voice but certainly not the biggest which is mind blowing because I really do not know many casual wrestling fans today. I try to talk for a few minutes with anyone that comes up to my table at shows. 80% of the people that come up only watch WWE and maybe AEW. They might post a tiny bit about either on their FB page but are far from being part of the IWC. Now also part of that might be I'm in a rural area,in a state that ranks last or near to last on education. But at least from what I have seen with my own eyes the real IWC makes up a tiny tiny portion of the wrestling audience. You’ll have a better sample size than me, but from what I’ve seen, wrestling fans are made up of die hards, children and a lot of people with intellectual disabilities. That’s not a dig at anyone and I don’t know many people with disabilities, but everyone I do know, massive, massive wrestling fans. Of those, the die hards are the worst. They usually are identified by their Bullet Club tshirts and screaming at the wrestlers non-stop because there’s 75 people there and the fans are part of the show.
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Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Jan 2, 2022 19:15:06 GMT -5
Honestly most of the local shows are made up of
Die Hards-people my age that have watched since they were 5. Kids-Usually under 10,they watch WWE and AEW. Mentally challenged-A local home for mentally challenged adults use to get tickets cheap cause they would buy 40 at a time. These folks were the ones that watched any and all wrestling they could get their hands on.
The only people at shows that might be part of the IWC,are the ones that are there to help set up the ring and chairs.
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Welfare Willis
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Post by Welfare Willis on Jan 2, 2022 21:09:02 GMT -5
That Vince killed the territories. Most of them were already dead, or dying when the expansion was happening. I wonder how much also had to do with the rise of infomercials. Why pay someone for tv content when these infomercials would pay the stations for tv time?
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