Cranjis McBasketball
Crow T. Robot
Knew what the hell that thing was supposed to be
Peace Love and Nothing But
Posts: 42,032
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Jan 3, 2022 4:51:05 GMT -5
Honestly most of the local shows are made up of Die Hards-people my age that have watched since they were 5. Kids-Usually under 10,they watch WWE and AEW. Mentally challenged-A local home for mentally challenged adults use to get tickets cheap cause they would buy 40 at a time. These folks were the ones that watched any and all wrestling they could get their hands on. The only people at shows that might be part of the IWC,are the ones that are there to help set up the ring and chairs. I've mentioned my friend with intellectual disabilities before. He's the only reason I keep up on WWE anymore. I honestly have no idea if he knows what's up with wrestling. I think he does, but he doesn't have the faculties to understand it in any meaningful sense. Like, he knows it's not real, but it's completely real to him. That said, I always, always treat wrestling with him like it's 100% real and that leads to my fantasy of him saying to other people "This moron friend of mine thinks this bullshit is totally real"
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Ultimo Gallos
Grimlock
Dreams SUCK!Nightmares live FOREVER!
Posts: 14,724
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Post by Ultimo Gallos on Jan 3, 2022 11:45:15 GMT -5
Oddly locally it is the older folks that still believe it is real.
For example 2 shows ago after the ring was broken down and the chairs were put up a pile of us headed out to Waffle House to eat,only place open at 11pm on the weekend.
Was myself,the promoter,his wife and one of the secuirty guys at one booth,the booth next to us was one of the refs,the ring announcer and the lead heel.
One of the older fans came in and was shocked the ref and promoter were having a meal with that evil King Rob Love.
But then at a show hell 6 years ago I had a Mentally Challenged Adult want to fight me. His seat was near the table we were doing commentary from. And he heard me cheering on local evil Heel Lukas Frost.
During intermission "Stabby",another guy on commentary nicknamed this guy that,keeps glaring at me. So I walked over to see what his issue was "Why do you keep cheering on da bad guys?" I explained that I cheer on who ever entertains me the most "Well how about you get in teh ring and I tear that mask off ya?" Told him nope. Then he asked if I wanted to go out into the parking lot and "brawl" again told him nope.
So to difuse the situation I made him a bet. If his guy won the next match I owed him a drink. And if my guy won he owed me a drink. Next match was the Mike Son of JYD Carter vs Monty Warbucks Street fight. Monty was heel and lost. So I had to buy Stabby a Diet Coke.
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tafkaga
Samurai Cop
the Dogfather
Posts: 2,212
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Post by tafkaga on Jan 3, 2022 14:19:33 GMT -5
The biggest false narrative I usually see in the IWC is this idea that the belts are accomplishments. Being around the business for a little while and seeing how things operate backstage, you would be considered a huge mark if you treated a title win like an achievement. Title belts are seen as props. Infact, some wrestlers didn't even want to win a title because it meant they would have to carry it around everywhere. I know this might come as a shock to a lot of people cause its fun to get invested in the stories and celebrate when your favorite reaches the top of the mountain... But the real winners are those who make the most money. That's why I'm sure the likes of Roddy Piper and Scott Hall never lost any sleep over winning any fake belts. Does this change my mentality and enjoyment as a fan? Not really. I'm just a little bit more aware of the mindset of the business now. I can still enjoy wrestling and pretend it's real. I can still celebrate when Liv Morgan wins the title, just like I celebrated when Rocky Balboa won the title in Rocky 2. As far as belts being used as props go - yes and no, it depends how it's booked. I think not putting a championship(most notably a World championship) on a certain individual CAN be damaging to a company in the long run. Think of Hulk Hogan constantly chasing the AWA title, but never winning it. Verne Gagne naively thought the money was strictly in the chase and milked it for all he could. This was legit frustrating to Hogan and the fans, with Hogan eventually leaving the company to join the quickly expanding WWF where Vince Mcmahon capitalized on his popularity and the audience followed suit and were thus satisfied with The Hulkster finally getting recognition, albeit in another company. As far as when it was used as a prop goes, I'd say when career jobber Jinder Mahal won it to generate interest in India despite all the problems that came surrounding it. Say yes, the belt was merely a tool to cater to a market that didn't give a shit about pro wrestling, let alone someone who's pretending to be from there. That's like if they put the WWE championship on Xavier Woods to create an audience in Africa solely because he's Black. Politically correctness be damned. I do agree that the real winners are those who make the most money and I'd put someone like Roddy Piper or Jake Roberts, or hell "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan(the later two who have never won ANY titles in the WWF) above Jinder Mahal and certain others who were made World champion, but I do find it hard to believe they made more money than someone like Hulk Hogan, "Stone Cold" Steve Austin or The Rock. So yes, at least in theory, the man who's World champion is the top dog, both in kayfabe and in reality. I do feel there's variable factors to it on determining who the winner is in what is essentially a fake sport. Historically, correct handling of the belts elevates the talent, while the talent elevates the belt. Poor handling accomplishes neither. Verne didn't understand how the belts worked, because he saw himself as having the power to legitimize Hogan by giving him the AWA belt. Vince understood that Hogan had all the power, and that he could either ride the wave of Hulkamania into a new era of prosperity or be Verne Gagne. So, the belts definitely were not story props once upon a time. If they are story props now, it's only because they have been mishandled for so long that they no longer have any real prestige beyond an excuse to set up a PPV match.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,353
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 3, 2022 15:02:34 GMT -5
I feel like it's not necessarily disrespect to call title belts props. That's what they are: props used to tell stories. I mean, a king's crown doesn't actually do anything, or a priest's rod, for that matter. It adds an air of authority, but outside of making them look more impressive, it is meaningless. That said, this is something of quite a bit of importance. Titles are the most important prop to help sell stories, and without stories, you may as well have wrestling just be a pure shoot.
It's not unlike any other prop, I guess. A good one makes you forget what it is and buy into something grander. (And buy the replicas/toys, naturally.) A shitty prop, be it a title with no prestige or a really lame gun in an action movie, just makes you think, "What a useless piece of crap."
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Ozman
Samurai Cop
Chi-Town!!!
Posts: 2,386
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Post by Ozman on Jan 3, 2022 15:57:06 GMT -5
"Koko B Ware doesn't deserve a HOF place!" Nope. He does. Absolutely. Some IWC fans act like wrestling is a real sport, and wins and losses actually matter. I look at wrestling the same way I look at other aspects of entertainment. If an actor always plays a loser, that doesn’t necessarily make them a bad actor. Koko was a decent wrestler, and was always over with the crowd. If you don’t believe me, watch his match against The Big Bossman at SummerSlam 88. Watch that Madison Square Garden crowd go crazy when Koko hits Bossman with a missile dropkick!!!
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Jan 3, 2022 20:45:11 GMT -5
Gorilla Monsoon said Hulk didn't know the difference between a wristlock and a wrist watch on an A&E documentary, so that goes beyond an IWC narrative. Hulk had a hand full of impressive looking wrestling moves he could pull out when he needed to. He never looked very smooth when he did them, but it was fun to see him pull them out on rare occasion. Was it Monsoon or was it Verne Gagne? If we’re talking the Unreal Story of Professional Wrestling I’d swear it’s Gagne but I haven’t watched it in years
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tafkaga
Samurai Cop
the Dogfather
Posts: 2,212
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Post by tafkaga on Jan 3, 2022 21:33:36 GMT -5
Gorilla Monsoon said Hulk didn't know the difference between a wristlock and a wrist watch on an A&E documentary, so that goes beyond an IWC narrative. Hulk had a hand full of impressive looking wrestling moves he could pull out when he needed to. He never looked very smooth when he did them, but it was fun to see him pull them out on rare occasion. Was it Monsoon or was it Verne Gagne? If we’re talking the Unreal Story of Professional Wrestling I’d swear it’s Gagne but I haven’t watched it in years I don't remember Gagne being on the Unreal Story. Was definitely Monsoon.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Jan 3, 2022 21:34:51 GMT -5
Was it Monsoon or was it Verne Gagne? If we’re talking the Unreal Story of Professional Wrestling I’d swear it’s Gagne but I haven’t watched it in years I don't remember Gagne being on the Unreal Story. Was definitely Monsoon. You’re probably right, it’s probably been 15+ years since I last saw it, I should go dig the VHS out and watch it.
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Post by Porky's Butthole on Jan 3, 2022 22:15:55 GMT -5
"The Rock put over the Hurricane clean". Yeah, he absolutely did not. People act like Hurricane beat him with a chokeslam in the center of the ring. The reality is that the Rock carried most of the offense and had him absolutely dead to rights until Austin distracted him leading to a roll-up. Rock did not put over Hurricane clean but he did put him over. He let Hurricane get plenty of offense and some near falls. It also looked better after the complete burial by Triple H a couple of weeks later. Hurricane won the match. But the Rock put his ass over HUGE in the backstage segments leading up to the match. Seriously, how many people *really* got to verbally go toe-to-toe with Rock and *win*. Those segments made Hurricane a STAR. I will die on this hill.
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petef3
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,783
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Post by petef3 on Jan 3, 2022 23:30:44 GMT -5
"Koko B Ware doesn't deserve a HOF place!" Nope. He does. Absolutely. Some IWC fans act like wrestling is a real sport, and wins and losses actually matter. I look at wrestling the same way I look at other aspects of entertainment. If an actor always plays a loser, that doesn’t necessarily make them a bad actor. Koko was a decent wrestler, and was always over with the crowd. If you don’t believe me, watch his match against The Big Bossman at SummerSlam 88. Watch that Madison Square Garden crowd go crazy when Koko hits Bossman with a missile dropkick!!! Utility/bench players are needed in baseball and football and team sports, too. Being a really, really good utility player is valuable--but it doesn't make you a HOFer. Being a good character-actor doesn't make you a worthy Oscar nominee, either. Koko was "over" in the sense that he got good reactions in a time period when almost every act in the WWF got good reactions and anomalies like the Honky Tonk Man or Outback Jack were true outliers. He wasn't properly "over" in a ticket-selling, money-drawing sense at any point with the company (though he was in Memphis). Of course this is the WWE HOF which has no criteria of any kind. But Koko is more of an illustration of the uselessness of discussing the concept at all, more than an example of someone "deserving."
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petef3
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,783
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Post by petef3 on Jan 3, 2022 23:37:20 GMT -5
And there was no way that Verne was going to be able to keep Hogan once Vince came calling--he just didn't have the resources to compete with Vince's market share. So in some sense he was probably better off *not* putting the belt on Hogan, because having his World Champion jump to the competition would have done far, far more damage.
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Post by Milkman Norm on Jan 3, 2022 23:49:57 GMT -5
I don't remember Gagne being on the Unreal Story. Was definitely Monsoon. You’re probably right, it’s probably been 15+ years since I last saw it, I should go dig the VHS out and watch it. I'm 99.99% sure it was Verne.
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,661
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Post by cjh on Jan 3, 2022 23:54:19 GMT -5
You’re probably right, it’s probably been 15+ years since I last saw it, I should go dig the VHS out and watch it. I'm 99.99% sure it was Verne. He may have in another interview, but Gorilla Monsoon said it on "The Unreal Story of Professional Wrestling."
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petef3
Don Corleone
Posts: 1,783
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Post by petef3 on Jan 4, 2022 0:02:46 GMT -5
Verne was on the Unreal Story as well, but it was 100% Monsoon who said the line about Hogan in question.
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Post by The Summer of Muskrat XVII on Jan 4, 2022 1:48:30 GMT -5
Verne was on the Unreal Story as well, but it was 100% Monsoon who said the line about Hogan in question. Yup, I just pulled it up on YouTube, the wristwatch line was Monsoon. Lou Thesz also has a pretty good line about his grandmother doing a better leg drop then Hogan, which I also thought came from Verne.
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Post by Jaws the Shark on Jan 4, 2022 5:23:42 GMT -5
"Koko B Ware doesn't deserve a HOF place!" Nope. He does. Absolutely. Some IWC fans act like wrestling is a real sport, and wins and losses actually matter. I look at wrestling the same way I look at other aspects of entertainment. If an actor always plays a loser, that doesn’t necessarily make them a bad actor. Koko was a decent wrestler, and was always over with the crowd. If you don’t believe me, watch his match against The Big Bossman at SummerSlam 88. Watch that Madison Square Garden crowd go crazy when Koko hits Bossman with a missile dropkick!!! He had a pretty good run in Memphis too. We’re told a lot that it’s effectively a whole of wrestling hall of fame, but some people get judged solely on their WWF/E runs. The whole hall of fame thing gets taken too seriously anyway, I think for us as viewers it’s fairly meaningless.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,582
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jan 4, 2022 7:31:54 GMT -5
Absolutely. Some IWC fans act like wrestling is a real sport, and wins and losses actually matter. I look at wrestling the same way I look at other aspects of entertainment. If an actor always plays a loser, that doesn’t necessarily make them a bad actor. Koko was a decent wrestler, and was always over with the crowd. If you don’t believe me, watch his match against The Big Bossman at SummerSlam 88. Watch that Madison Square Garden crowd go crazy when Koko hits Bossman with a missile dropkick!!! He had a pretty good run in Memphis too. We’re told a lot that it’s effectively a whole of wrestling hall of fame, but some people get judged solely on their WWF/E runs. The whole hall of fame thing gets taken too seriously anyway, I think for us as viewers it’s fairly meaningless. The HOF is weird in the sense that it's based on merit in terms of kayfabe accomplishments for many but is also used as a "thank you" to others.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
Posts: 121,353
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Post by Mozenrath on Jan 4, 2022 8:03:43 GMT -5
And there was no way that Verne was going to be able to keep Hogan once Vince came calling--he just didn't have the resources to compete with Vince's market share. So in some sense he was probably better off *not* putting the belt on Hogan, because having his World Champion jump to the competition would have done far, far more damage. I think the biggest issue would probably, in addition to market share, Hogan and Vince were going to see eye to eye a lot more on strategies. For every criticism of Hogan, many of which of course being justified, he had a pretty clear idea of what he wanted, and it happened to align wonderfully with Vince's goals. They didn't have a 10ish year run making a bunch of money together by accident, after all, their visions were pretty comparable. It also would just be a more interesting territory for what Hogan wanted. New York has MUCH more in the way of media, so guest spots on shows, interviews with talk shows, etc, were going to be much more accessible to him than being in the midwest as the base of operations.
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Post by Mid-Carder on Jan 4, 2022 8:13:34 GMT -5
The Koko B Ware argument became redundant anyway as soon as Torrie Wilson was inducted. She's the new low bar.
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metylerca
King Koopa
Loves Him Some Backstreet Boys.
Don't be alarmed.
Posts: 12,479
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Post by metylerca on Jan 7, 2022 13:17:51 GMT -5
Raven: Great mind for the business.
I've watched plenty of ECW and WCW, Impact too. And while Raven did very good character work for the most part, I don't know of any segments or shows that Raven produced to prove this. It's just sort of accepted, though less so today than 2000's era. Being a great character (like Jake Roberts) does not always correlate to business metrics benefitting. Raven was hardly someone who shifted momentum in business or made much difference in the grand scheme of things, so if he truly was a great mind, more promoters should have watched his guest booker DVDs I guess?
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