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Post by Cyno on Apr 13, 2022 13:08:58 GMT -5
Joke Answer: ILL Mitch. He is fast and danger.
Serious answer: Shit, I don't really know. There's a lot of great ones and it's all subjective. Different folks are better in different categories. Jay-Z, Biggie, Nas, Kendrick, Tupac, and MF DOOM are up there for me for solo acts. ATCQ, Public Enemy, Outkast, The Roots, Beastie Boys, and Wu-Tang are up there in groups.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Apr 13, 2022 13:35:37 GMT -5
I don’t have one “best ever”. Depends on my mood.
So far as who consistently entertains me: Outkast, the Roots/Black Thought, peak Kanye (College Dropout to MBDTF), Kendrick, Lil Wayne, Beastie Boys, peak 90s Nas, 2 Chainz, A$AP Rocky, J. Cole, Eminem Show/8 Mile era Em, 90s Busta Rhymes, Aesop Rock, Future, Tyler the Creator, Young Thug, DMX, Missy Elliot, Nelly, Chief Keef. I don’t hear LL Cool J get mentioned enough among the GOATs, he may be underrated in that regard.
For the new school, I really think Trippie Redd, Megan Thee Stallion, Lil Baby and Playboi Carti are coming into their own.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Apr 13, 2022 13:35:39 GMT -5
I think Best Rapper should signify whoever made the best rap music.
Kendrick Lamar is currently on an absolutely amazing four album run. The only other solo artists who've hit that four album mark solo at that level of consistent quality are Scarface and, since it's the only rapper in the duo, Rakim. (we could perhaps include Ice Cube and Devin the Dude if we factor their debuts as part of a group as albums, but that might be a stretch)
Big Daddy Kane is the best live hip-hop performer of all time and it's not close.
As amazing as the highpoints of Em/Nas/Jay are, they've had some absolute irredeemably dogshit albums over their career as well. That doesn't negate the good (and I think Jay has done the best job of the three bouncing back) and outside of maybe five or six years rap's never been an album centric-genre, which is what makes the full albums streaks of rappers such an impressive feat.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Apr 13, 2022 15:20:06 GMT -5
I think Best Rapper should signify whoever made the best rap music. Kendrick Lamar is currently on an absolutely amazing four album run. The only other solo artists who've hit that four album mark solo at that level of consistent quality are Scarface and, since it's the only rapper in the duo, Rakim. (we could perhaps include Ice Cube and Devin the Dude if we factor their debuts as part of a group as albums, but that might be a stretch) Big Daddy Kane is the best live hip-hop performer of all time and it's not close. As amazing as the highpoints of Em/Nas/Jay are, they've had some absolute irredeemably dogshit albums over their career as well. That doesn't negate the good (and I think Jay has done the best job of the three bouncing back) and outside of maybe five or six years rap's never been an album centric-genre, which is what makes the full albums streaks of rappers such an impressive feat. Eminem has the excuse of being drugged out of his mind. Jay Z has never done it for me really. He's got a few songs I like... but that's it. And ill just say it.... TUPAC is overrated.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2022 15:24:26 GMT -5
Hannibal, str8 outta Finland!
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Mozenrath
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Post by Mozenrath on Apr 13, 2022 15:30:57 GMT -5
I think Best Rapper should signify whoever made the best rap music. Kendrick Lamar is currently on an absolutely amazing four album run. The only other solo artists who've hit that four album mark solo at that level of consistent quality are Scarface and, since it's the only rapper in the duo, Rakim. (we could perhaps include Ice Cube and Devin the Dude if we factor their debuts as part of a group as albums, but that might be a stretch) Big Daddy Kane is the best live hip-hop performer of all time and it's not close. As amazing as the highpoints of Em/Nas/Jay are, they've had some absolute irredeemably dogshit albums over their career as well. That doesn't negate the good (and I think Jay has done the best job of the three bouncing back) and outside of maybe five or six years rap's never been an album centric-genre, which is what makes the full albums streaks of rappers such an impressive feat. That's something that crossed my mind, consistency. I think it always comes down to preferences, how important reliability is versus just counting their highest highs, and if you count their lowest lows. Like, if someone called Lauryn Hill their favorite musician of all time, I'd know it'd be unlikely that they were suggesting they love everything she's ever done, but that the height she did achieve was worth more to them than a "normal" musician's entire back catalog. It's not an invalid way of thinking, really, especially on such a subjective topic to begin with.
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Post by Cyno on Apr 13, 2022 15:37:35 GMT -5
That lack of consistency is why I took Kanye and Eminem out of consideration because after their peak stuff they had huge nosedives in quality without really recovering. Eminem's had a nice bounceback in terms of his personal life as far as we know, and he's made people forget about the shitty era by leaning more into nostalgia. Pastor Red Hat, on the other hand, has just gone off the rails and I just can't stand anything about him anymore. Like, it's retroactively ruined him for me and I'm someone who used to consider MBDTF one of the best rap albums ever made.
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Post by noobeast on Apr 13, 2022 15:53:23 GMT -5
People don't like to admit it in a weird way, but I don't think there is really a way to look at this question objectively and not come to the conclusion that it's Em. Dude is a machine.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2022 16:52:20 GMT -5
Pac is the GOAT and while I will freely admit he is not the all time greatest lyrisist I personally put him above all the others.
But in the end it is all subjective as what one rapper brings to the preverbial table may not appeal to someone elses tastes etc.
90s Busta comes solidly in my second place though.
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Post by Raskovnik on Apr 13, 2022 16:58:07 GMT -5
People don't like to admit it in a weird way, but I don't think there is really a way to look at this question objectively and not come to the conclusion that it's Em. Dude is a machine. What is your metric for objectivity here, “can rap really fast and made 8 Mile?”
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2022 17:06:44 GMT -5
Em is dope and all but nah, he ain't it. Like, yeah he's a dope "rapper" but are we just talking about the skill of actually "rapping" as in "lemme put words together that rhyme well" or are we actually talking about what it means to be a "rapper" as in "hey I'm a musician who raps?" Even further than that, there's a difference between a "rapper" and an "emcee." I love Em but nah. If you wanna talk about who's the best at technical rapping I'd throw his name up there but if you wanna talk about what it means to be a rapper as a whole I can't pick him because he had some rough years and I don't see as much diversity and variety from him as I've seen from a Jay or a Nas or even Outkast when they had that 5 classic album run. Even K. Dot, Kendrick gave us S80, GKMC, TPAB and DAMN. I'd throw him in the conversation before Em based on that output.
I'm not an Eminem hater at all, I don't like the slander on this man's name but I cannot put him over a ton of people mentioned in this thread.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Apr 13, 2022 17:38:43 GMT -5
I think Best Rapper should signify whoever made the best rap music. Kendrick Lamar is currently on an absolutely amazing four album run. The only other solo artists who've hit that four album mark solo at that level of consistent quality are Scarface and, since it's the only rapper in the duo, Rakim. (we could perhaps include Ice Cube and Devin the Dude if we factor their debuts as part of a group as albums, but that might be a stretch) Big Daddy Kane is the best live hip-hop performer of all time and it's not close. As amazing as the highpoints of Em/Nas/Jay are, they've had some absolute irredeemably dogshit albums over their career as well. That doesn't negate the good (and I think Jay has done the best job of the three bouncing back) and outside of maybe five or six years rap's never been an album centric-genre, which is what makes the full albums streaks of rappers such an impressive feat. Eminem has the excuse of being drugged out of his mind. Jay Z has never done it for me really. He's got a few songs I like... but that's it. And ill just say it.... TUPAC is overrated. Drugged out of his mind isn't an excuse as he's made some horrible f***ing albums sober as well. He only makes comeback albums because ultimately everything full length he's released since 2004 has been a hyped up affair that everyone forgets about in three weeks with diminishing returns. His flows have plummeted since 2009 when he started only doing that trampling-over-the-beat thing, his "shock value" lacks the charm and imagination of his earlier work and his exploration of the topics of relationship are some of the most surface-level banal uninteresting entries in the genre. He's a catalog artist. Tupac was prolific and made amazing albums that connected on a variety of topics with audiences who otherwise may not have engaged with them. He's like Guru in the sense that his goals weren't supposed to be some needlessly verbose technical rapper, but to have storytelling, concepts and wisdom. It's fine to not enjoy his music, but to outright call him overrated is to miss the aims and impact of his work. While not his best album, 'The Dynasty: Roc La Familia' probably encapsulates best what makes Jay-Z one of the all time greats as you have him in the persona transitional point between street hustler and pop culture icon. As a result, you have him flexing a multitude of different styles on some of the best production he's ever had.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
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Post by chazraps on Apr 13, 2022 17:42:52 GMT -5
People don't like to admit it in a weird way, but I don't think there is really a way to look at this question objectively and not come to the conclusion that it's Em. Dude is a machine. What's the objectivity? Like, by what metrics? At one point did he have perhaps the greatest potential of all time? Certainly. The talent was there. But look at the last 18 years of his output, and then look at how much of those best years don't hold up all that well (imagine bumping "White America" or some song dissing LFO and Britney Spears in 2022). If you want to talk technical rapping, he's never ever been at an Aceyalone, Myka-9 or Eyedea level. "Rap God" era was just stacking a bunch of slant rhymes while trampling all over the beat.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
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Post by chazraps on Apr 13, 2022 17:47:05 GMT -5
I think Best Rapper should signify whoever made the best rap music. Kendrick Lamar is currently on an absolutely amazing four album run. The only other solo artists who've hit that four album mark solo at that level of consistent quality are Scarface and, since it's the only rapper in the duo, Rakim. (we could perhaps include Ice Cube and Devin the Dude if we factor their debuts as part of a group as albums, but that might be a stretch) Big Daddy Kane is the best live hip-hop performer of all time and it's not close. As amazing as the highpoints of Em/Nas/Jay are, they've had some absolute irredeemably dogshit albums over their career as well. That doesn't negate the good (and I think Jay has done the best job of the three bouncing back) and outside of maybe five or six years rap's never been an album centric-genre, which is what makes the full albums streaks of rappers such an impressive feat. That's something that crossed my mind, consistency. I think it always comes down to preferences, how important reliability is versus just counting their highest highs, and if you count their lowest lows. Like, if someone called Lauryn Hill their favorite musician of all time, I'd know it'd be unlikely that they were suggesting they love everything she's ever done, but that the height she did achieve was worth more to them than a "normal" musician's entire back catalog. It's not an invalid way of thinking, really, especially on such a subjective topic to begin with. That's the thing with Biggie too. Like, 'Ready to Die' might be the single greatest rap album of all time. Any rap artist would love to say that was something they made. It's perfection. Flawless. Then, he made the second greatest double album in rap history in 'Life After Death.' Between that you have a three year run where he outshine anyone and everyone on their own tracks. He died and who know what he would have done from '98 onward, but his run as it is was all classic material. Compare that to a Big L or a Big Pun who both has some incredible music and were still getting better and better but never got the chance to make their masterpiece at their peak. With Biggie you at least can go back to 'Ready to Die.'
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Apr 13, 2022 17:48:36 GMT -5
Eminem has the excuse of being drugged out of his mind. Jay Z has never done it for me really. He's got a few songs I like... but that's it. And ill just say it.... TUPAC is overrated. Drugged out of his mind isn't an excuse as he's made some horrible f***ing albums sober as well. He only makes comeback albums because ultimately everything full length he's released since 2004 has been a hyped up affair that everyone forgets about in three weeks with diminishing returns. His flows have plummeted since 2009 when he started only doing that trampling-over-the-beat thing, his "shock value" lacks the charm and imagination of his earlier work and his exploration of the topics of relationship are some of the most surface-level banal uninteresting entries in the genre. He's a catalog artist. Tupac was prolific and made amazing albums that connected on a variety of topics with audiences who otherwise may not have engaged with them. He's like Guru in the sense that his goals weren't supposed to be some needlessly verbose technical rapper, but to have storytelling, concepts and wisdom. It's fine to not enjoy his music, but to outright call him overrated is to miss the aims and impact of his work. While not his best album, 'The Dynasty: Roc La Familia' probably encapsulates best what makes Jay-Z one of the all time greats as you have him in the persona transitional point between street hustler and pop culture icon. As a result, you have him flexing a multitude of different styles on some of the best production he's ever had. I couldn't disagree with any more. Like... wow man. IMO nobody touches Eminem. His flow and word play are above everyone else's. Like... I don't even think that parts an opinion. Tupac was great. But to say he's the GOAT isn't a correct statement. He was a good story teller, but alot of his flows are nursery rhyme level. And I never got the appeal of Jay. That may be my Nas Fandom sneaking in tho lol. But yea, in your opinion Em's latest output might not be good, but IMO he still has it, and is still the GOAT.
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chazraps
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Post by chazraps on Apr 13, 2022 17:56:43 GMT -5
Drugged out of his mind isn't an excuse as he's made some horrible f***ing albums sober as well. He only makes comeback albums because ultimately everything full length he's released since 2004 has been a hyped up affair that everyone forgets about in three weeks with diminishing returns. His flows have plummeted since 2009 when he started only doing that trampling-over-the-beat thing, his "shock value" lacks the charm and imagination of his earlier work and his exploration of the topics of relationship are some of the most surface-level banal uninteresting entries in the genre. He's a catalog artist. Tupac was prolific and made amazing albums that connected on a variety of topics with audiences who otherwise may not have engaged with them. He's like Guru in the sense that his goals weren't supposed to be some needlessly verbose technical rapper, but to have storytelling, concepts and wisdom. It's fine to not enjoy his music, but to outright call him overrated is to miss the aims and impact of his work. While not his best album, 'The Dynasty: Roc La Familia' probably encapsulates best what makes Jay-Z one of the all time greats as you have him in the persona transitional point between street hustler and pop culture icon. As a result, you have him flexing a multitude of different styles on some of the best production he's ever had. I couldn't disagree with any more. Like... wow man. IMO nobody touches Eminem. His flow and word play are above everyone else's. Like... I don't even think that parts an opinion. Tupac was great. But to say he's the GOAT isn't a correct statement. He was a good story teller, but alot of his flows are nursery rhyme level. And I never got the appeal of Jay. That may be my Nas Fandom sneaking in tho lol. But yea, in your opinion Em's latest output might not be good, but IMO he still has it, and is still the GOAT. How much rap do you actually listen to? His flow and wordplay have devolved into uninspired dad jokes for over a decade now. "That's why they call it window-pain" / "awfully hot coffee pot" Eminem is not a top tier lyricist. It's him xeroxing his old party tricks. That's why nobody outside Eminem stans talk about listening to anything he's done over the past ten years. In terms of the hip-hop landscape and the evolution of the craft, he's not a factor. He sells a bunch of records (again, a catalog artist who only makes comeback albums) and will pop some attention for a bit when he publicly disses someone, but in terms of the act of rapping - where are his fingerprints? What has he done that hasn't been done better before him or since? And Tupac's flows may have been not exactly complex, but they were always what fit the beat. Whereas Eminem often will just trample all over that shit stuffing syllables like sardines into a can. It's that "head-will-twist ex-or-cist" fast rap that he or Hopsin do that, again, has already been done much better by MCs who have included actual substance.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Apr 13, 2022 18:09:30 GMT -5
I couldn't disagree with any more. Like... wow man. IMO nobody touches Eminem. His flow and word play are above everyone else's. Like... I don't even think that parts an opinion. Tupac was great. But to say he's the GOAT isn't a correct statement. He was a good story teller, but alot of his flows are nursery rhyme level. And I never got the appeal of Jay. That may be my Nas Fandom sneaking in tho lol. But yea, in your opinion Em's latest output might not be good, but IMO he still has it, and is still the GOAT. How much rap do you actually listen to? His flow and wordplay have devolved into uninspired dad jokes for over a decade now. "That's why they call it window-pain" / "awfully hot coffee pot" Eminem is not a top tier lyricist. It's him xeroxing his old party tricks. That's why nobody outside Eminem stans talk about listening to anything he's done over the past ten years. In terms of the hip-hop landscape and the evolution of the craft, he's not a factor. He sells a bunch of records (again, a catalog artist who only makes comeback albums) and will pop some attention for a bit when he publicly disses someone, but in terms of the act of rapping - where are his fingerprints? What has he done that hasn't been done better before him or since? And Tupac's flows may have been not exactly complex, but they were always what fit the beat. Whereas Eminem often will just trample all over that shit stuffing syllables like sardines into a can. It's that "head-will-twist ex-or-cist" fast rap that he or Hopsin do that, again, has already been done much better by MCs who have included actual substance. Why does my opinion bother you so much? I listen to tons of rap, from Mainstream artists to underground guys and battle rappers. Like, IMO, Eminem has better word play. IDC, honestly, what you think, because it's just your opinion. I kno you rap and stuff, which I guess gives you a superiority complex or something. I never said I wasn't a Pac fan either. I f***ing love Pac. I also recognize that he wasn't the GOAT as so many put him as. I don't really give a shit about the landscape and all that either. Like...I enjoy what I enjoy, and honestly hate this culture of, "you like that? Let me tell you why that makes you and idiot, and question your fandom" that has sprung up in the last few years. Like, JfC man. Like what you like, I'll like what I like, and the world will keep on spinning.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
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Post by chazraps on Apr 13, 2022 18:12:36 GMT -5
How much rap do you actually listen to? His flow and wordplay have devolved into uninspired dad jokes for over a decade now. "That's why they call it window-pain" / "awfully hot coffee pot" Eminem is not a top tier lyricist. It's him xeroxing his old party tricks. That's why nobody outside Eminem stans talk about listening to anything he's done over the past ten years. In terms of the hip-hop landscape and the evolution of the craft, he's not a factor. He sells a bunch of records (again, a catalog artist who only makes comeback albums) and will pop some attention for a bit when he publicly disses someone, but in terms of the act of rapping - where are his fingerprints? What has he done that hasn't been done better before him or since? And Tupac's flows may have been not exactly complex, but they were always what fit the beat. Whereas Eminem often will just trample all over that shit stuffing syllables like sardines into a can. It's that "head-will-twist ex-or-cist" fast rap that he or Hopsin do that, again, has already been done much better by MCs who have included actual substance. Why does my opinion bother you so much? I listen to tons of rap, from Mainstream artists to underground guys and battle rappers. Like, IMO, Eminem has better word play. IDC, honestly, what you think, because it's just your opinion. I kno you rap and stuff, which I guess gives you a superiority complex or something. I never said I wasn't a Pac fan either. I f***ing love Pac. I also recognize that he wasn't the GOAT as so many put him as. I don't really give a shit about the landscape and all that either. Like...I enjoy what I enjoy, and honestly hate this culture of, "you like that? Let me tell you why that makes you and idiot, and question your fandom" that has sprung up in the last few years. Like, JfC man. Like what you like, I'll like what I like, and the world will keep on spinning. You literally named the thread "Best Rapper ever?"
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Post by Deleted on Apr 13, 2022 18:20:55 GMT -5
The thing about Em vs Tupac, it goes back to a comparison I read once about Lupe Fiasco and Outkast. Lupe is a legend and one of the best to ever do it but in this case, Outkast had him beat in regards to what I'm about to say. Basically, Lupe had some lines about being "fiscally responsible" and it was a dope message. Outkast on the other hand had some lines about "paying your f***ing beeper bill bitch" which was pretty much the same thing. The difference is that Outkast's message took less time to break down and was quicker to the point, it would connect to most listeners easier than Lupe. Lupe's amazing and great but sometimes taking the clearer pathway is best when it comes to certain things.
With Eminem and Tupac, Eminem usually doesn't take that direction. He gives you a lot of rhymes, a lot of comparisons, he gives you a lot and it's more complex from a technical sense.
Pac on the other hand, he was the master as delivering deep powerful messages that touch the user in the clearest most concise way possible. That's one reason why he's called an amazing lyricist. Being a lyricist is all about lyrics and having an easy way for the listener to connect with your lyrics (Outkast) compared to a more complex way is a talent. Drake actually said (I think it was on his debut album or his second Take Care) and he was trying to find a way to say the most stuff and yet have it be said in the shortest amount of lines and it's also one reason why him and J. Cole have powerful lyrics. Kendrick can do it as well but Dot can give you the complex stuff too, he's a master of both styles. In this style though, yeah. Pac's mastered this form.
Pac's one of the GOATs because even his simplest lyrics pack the most impact. That's a skill not many know how to do.
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Post by GodzillaIsMyMonster on Apr 13, 2022 18:21:14 GMT -5
Why does my opinion bother you so much? I listen to tons of rap, from Mainstream artists to underground guys and battle rappers. Like, IMO, Eminem has better word play. IDC, honestly, what you think, because it's just your opinion. I kno you rap and stuff, which I guess gives you a superiority complex or something. I never said I wasn't a Pac fan either. I f***ing love Pac. I also recognize that he wasn't the GOAT as so many put him as. I don't really give a shit about the landscape and all that either. Like...I enjoy what I enjoy, and honestly hate this culture of, "you like that? Let me tell you why that makes you and idiot, and question your fandom" that has sprung up in the last few years. Like, JfC man. Like what you like, I'll like what I like, and the world will keep on spinning. You literally named the thread "Best Rapper ever?" So that people would give opinions and thoughts, but you come in here in with insults and shit.
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