AEW isn't doing enough to make people care about NJPW

[Final Countdown Jones]

Jun 12, 2022 15:50:34 GMT -5 lockedontarget said:

I’m so sick of the idea that they should be chasing big mainstream success above all else.

I care way more about the show being good.

As long as AEW is successful enough to make money and stay in business, I’d rather they focus on having good wrestling.

There’s nothing wrong with catering to your actual fans. There’s nothing wrong with being niche.

You don’t have to be a Call of Duty, you can be a Persona.

Persona is a great comparison too, because like. Microsoft just did its big summer showcase today, featured footage from the new Forza game (the last game in the series having had 20 million players) and Starfield, a game people have been waiting for years for footage of and the first single player release from Bethesda Game Studios since 2015. New Overwatch footage. New Diablo 4 footage. And Persona 3-5, games that have existed for years and hwich will not receive any new content, being on Windows and Xbox, stands out as just as huge a story people are just as excited for. Hell, an indie 2d action game getting not even a release date but just footage is standing as just as big a story.

AEW's 'niche' still gets it great ratings and a competitive chance at being the top of its night on cable when big 4 sports aren't in overdrive. It's succeeding in drawing money, drawing an audience, and monetizing that audience. The media landscape right now is as good as it has ever been for niche programming. Ever. The reach you can get for something that doesn't fit neatly into the mainstream, the visibility you can create, and the access to the audience who wants your product has never been as good as it is right now, and AEW has proven that if you put out a wrestling product with the right mix of factors and make a good show with it, you can pull in close to if not a million weekly viewers. AEW would be insane right now to try and jump at courting WWE fans by changing their show to be more of what WWE fans might want and historically, that has been a disaster. TNA downplayed its best traits to try and be a half-baked WWE and its ratings declined. They tried to chase storylines and comparisons and it got them a warehouse full of fake beards they couldn't move. WWE fans didnt' come over in droves to watch it.

Fans of niche things tend to be forgiving and loyal, but the easiest way to burn them is to turn away from them. If you use your audience as a stepping stone to something else then they're going to leave. Then who have you got left? Countless musicians have gone pop, failed to find an audience, and trashed their cred as an artist in the process. Hell, amid all the complaints of tribalism and mud slinging, will AEW even be able to attract those kinds of "I'm not checking AEW out until it's more like what I want" people? Or will they just keep shitting on it for not being WWE? AEW is way more likely to become a Liz Phair than a Green Day.

[Glitch]

AEW has made more money catering to their constituents than TNA did chasing a broad audience. At the end of the day it all comes back to quality.

[xCompackx]

I think trying to create a "boom period" is why there won't be another "boom period" in wrestling.

[Cyno]

Another apt comparison: WCW started losing its ratings war against WWF when the Attitude Era was in its prime. Their solution was to start acting more like Attitude Era WWF almost to the point of parody. They even hired away Vince Russo and Ed Ferrara.

But as the meme goes "we already have the Attitude Era at home." It was a creative disaster that not only didn't attract WWF fans, it alienated loyal WCW fans. They didn't want a second rate attempt at WWF. They wanted WCW. Ratings and ppv buys plummeted.

[Deleted]

Jun 12, 2022 15:59:01 GMT -5 Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! said:

Casual fans don't exist anymore and it's time we stopped pretending they did. Nobody is magically tuning into WWE or AEW while channel surfing and going "hey I think I'll stick around"

That's just not true.

New fans come every day.

That's basically like saying nobody ever becomes a fan of something.

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Jun 13, 2022 0:35:59 GMT -5 @negan said:

Jun 12, 2022 15:59:01 GMT -5 Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! said:

Casual fans don't exist anymore and it's time we stopped pretending they did. Nobody is magically tuning into WWE or AEW while channel surfing and going "hey I think I'll stick around"

That's just not true.

New fans come every day.

That's basically like saying nobody ever becomes a fan of something.

And the notion that "No casual fans will watch or care about Forbidden Door" is just as ridiculous then. If "New fans come every day", then by your logic, they are also coming in right now, seeing the talk of Forbidden Door, and seeing what it's about, even potentially ordering the crossover PPV.

The notion that no one ever would, even ignoring the sellout gate, makes absolutely no sense if you're also going by the logic that "new fans come every day", it's contradictory in itself, and it's why I said the take itself is nothing but a headache.

Selling out The United Center plus extra seats goes well beyond "Niche", that's a huge crowd, for all we know, someone's first ever wrestling event is going to be Forbidden Door, and the notion that it isn't and "AEW will never get casual fans this way and it's a mistake", doesn't work, at all.

[Blade]

Just speaking for myself, as a person who has never watched New Japan, only know their stars by name and very vague reputation (if that; like I know there's a guy, maybe Okada, that is The Rainmaker and he's supposedly super good, but not why or anything about him), is therefore on the fence whether I'll care enough to order the PPV, and would therefore very much like AEW to do more introduction than they did during the "Here's an old guy, he's apparently important and here to job to Mox" series...

I have eyes. And I have ears. And therefore I can tell how the crowd reacts when big deal guys like Will Ospreay show up.

AEW is clearly not losing most of their attending audience here, and I don't believe there's any sharp dip in the ratings (for what little they're worth) during segments with Japanese stars. So while I personally may duck out if they coast on this rather than really work to make me care, I think it's obvious they'll be just fine either way.

[Deleted]

Jun 13, 2022 0:43:13 GMT -5 Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] said:

Jun 13, 2022 0:35:59 GMT -5 @negan said:

That's just not true.

New fans come every day.

That's basically like saying nobody ever becomes a fan of something.

And the notion that "No casual fans will watch or care about Forbidden Door" is just as ridiculous then. If "New fans come every day", then by your logic, they are also coming in right now, seeing the talk of Forbidden Door, and seeing what it's about, even potentially ordering the crossover PPV.

The notion that no one ever would, even ignoring the sellout gate, makes absolutely no sense if you're also going by the logic that "new fans come every day", it's contradictory in itself, and it's why I said the take itself is nothing but a headache.

Selling out The United Center plus extra seats goes well beyond "Niche", that's a huge crowd, for all we know, someone's first ever wrestling event is going to be Forbidden Door, and the notion that it isn't and "AEW will never get casual fans this way and it's a mistake", doesn't work, at all.

They're coming in right now, seeing this New Japan stuff and probably tuning right back out.

Again, you would have to be a smark fan to enjoy Puroresu. Most Japanese wrestling fans seeked it out cause they enjoyed the workrate and wanted an alternative. That means they were already watching wrestling before.

Whether people want to admit or not, this won't catch NEW fans attention in droves. There's a reason the Attitude Era was the most popular. It was because they did things non wrestling fans would be interested in... Even if it was sexist or offensive, it got views and interest.

People say stuff like "Nobody would watch a Lingerie Pillow Fight"... In actual fact, that would get loads more viewers than Serena Deeb vs Hikaru Shida. I am not saying its right, I'm just saying that's how the world works.

On the flip side, more people would tune in to see Mike Tyson vs Chris Jericho than they would Will Osperay vs Dante Martin.

This PPV is great for the niche fans. The hard cores. And if AEW want to keep pleasing them, then great. But they will never evolve by doing this. If they want to be the number 1 company, they have to cater to the masses. The casual fans who probably stopped watching years ago cause it became "too PG" or the new fans who happen to be flicking through the channels and see something crazy. That's what will grow their popularity.

Hardcore smark fans like us will watch regardless.

[stoptheclocks]

I personally don't care about Forbidden Door - I don't watch New Japan and the one thing AEW isn't short of is great wrestlers. So great but unknown to me, wrestlers coming in to have great matches for the sake of it does nothing for me.

But it's not for me, it's for hardcore wrestling fans who do love New Japan. And there are clearly enough of those to make this a viable event.

[Blade]

If "the way the world works" was that lingerie pillow fights drew hot ratings, there'd be an awful lot more lingerie pillow fights in wrestling. They are certainly not held back from them by the tender feminist sensibilities of wrestling promoters.

"Sex sells" is a discredited aphorism; it actually isn't that great at selling anything other than itself.

Meanwhile, a substantial number of people would in fact quit watching AEW if they pulled something like that, myself among them.

Finally, does it not seem plausible that just maybe there is a substantial number of New Japan fans that don't watch AEW and this might be a way to get them to jump on board?

[Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]]

Jun 13, 2022 1:49:38 GMT -5 @negan said:

Jun 13, 2022 0:43:13 GMT -5 Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] said:

And the notion that "No casual fans will watch or care about Forbidden Door" is just as ridiculous then. If "New fans come every day", then by your logic, they are also coming in right now, seeing the talk of Forbidden Door, and seeing what it's about, even potentially ordering the crossover PPV.

The notion that no one ever would, even ignoring the sellout gate, makes absolutely no sense if you're also going by the logic that "new fans come every day", it's contradictory in itself, and it's why I said the take itself is nothing but a headache.

Selling out The United Center plus extra seats goes well beyond "Niche", that's a huge crowd, for all we know, someone's first ever wrestling event is going to be Forbidden Door, and the notion that it isn't and "AEW will never get casual fans this way and it's a mistake", doesn't work, at all.

They're coming in right now, seeing this New Japan stuff and probably tuning right back out.

Again, you would have to be a smark fan to enjoy Puroresu. Most Japanese wrestling fans seeked it out cause they enjoyed the workrate and wanted an alternative. That means they were already watching wrestling before.

Whether people want to admit or not, this won't catch NEW fans attention in droves. There's a reason the Attitude Era was the most popular. It was because they did things non wrestling fans would be interested in... Even if it was sexist or offensive, it got views and interest.

People say stuff like "Nobody would watch a Lingerie Pillow Fight"... In actual fact, that would get loads more viewers than Serena Deeb vs Hikaru Shida. I am not saying its right, I'm just saying that's how the world works.

On the flip side, more people would tune in to see Mike Tyson vs Chris Jericho than they would Will Osperay vs Dante Martin.

This PPV is great for the niche fans. The hard cores. And if AEW want to keep pleasing them, then great. But they will never evolve by doing this. If they want to be the number 1 company, they have to cater to the masses. The casual fans who probably stopped watching years ago cause it became "too PG" or the new fans who happen to be flicking through the channels and see something crazy. That's what will grow their popularity.

Hardcore smark fans like us will watch regardless.

AEW does not have to "Beat WWE" to be successful, they're already successful.

A like 18K seat arena selling out is not "niche", they did that before they had one match on a card, one of the best gates they ever did, IN COMPANY HISTORY.

AEW has gotten year over year growth in three years to the point they have tripled the estimation of what TNT expected from them originally, and the executives love them through two mergers. 

Gonna be real honest, it's gonna be hard to kick a field goal when your goalposts are in space like they are. You speaking like things are a fact when they simply aren't means this isn't going to go any farther and isn't worth continuing as a conversation in general. Believe what you want, the results speak for themselves.

[Deleted]

Jun 13, 2022 1:49:38 GMT -5 @negan said:

Jun 13, 2022 0:43:13 GMT -5 Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] said:

And the notion that "No casual fans will watch or care about Forbidden Door" is just as ridiculous then. If "New fans come every day", then by your logic, they are also coming in right now, seeing the talk of Forbidden Door, and seeing what it's about, even potentially ordering the crossover PPV.

The notion that no one ever would, even ignoring the sellout gate, makes absolutely no sense if you're also going by the logic that "new fans come every day", it's contradictory in itself, and it's why I said the take itself is nothing but a headache.

Selling out The United Center plus extra seats goes well beyond "Niche", that's a huge crowd, for all we know, someone's first ever wrestling event is going to be Forbidden Door, and the notion that it isn't and "AEW will never get casual fans this way and it's a mistake", doesn't work, at all.

They're coming in right now, seeing this New Japan stuff and probably tuning right back out.

Again, you would have to be a smark fan to enjoy Puroresu. Most Japanese wrestling fans seeked it out cause they enjoyed the workrate and wanted an alternative. That means they were already watching wrestling before.

Whether people want to admit or not, this won't catch NEW fans attention in droves. There's a reason the Attitude Era was the most popular. It was because they did things non wrestling fans would be interested in... Even if it was sexist or offensive, it got views and interest.

People say stuff like "Nobody would watch a Lingerie Pillow Fight"... In actual fact, that would get loads more viewers than Serena Deeb vs Hikaru Shida. I am not saying its right, I'm just saying that's how the world works.

On the flip side, more people would tune in to see Mike Tyson vs Chris Jericho than they would Will Osperay vs Dante Martin.

This PPV is great for the niche fans. The hard cores. And if AEW want to keep pleasing them, then great. But they will never evolve by doing this. If they want to be the number 1 company, they have to cater to the masses. The casual fans who probably stopped watching years ago cause it became "too PG" or the new fans who happen to be flicking through the channels and see something crazy. That's what will grow their popularity.

Hardcore smark fans like us will watch regardless.

To be frank, the show you describe sounds f***ing shit. You have WWE for that which is one of a thousand reasons I don't watch WWE. Why compete for mainstream fans when they have WWE anyway. By brand awareness alone WWE won't be toppled so why do it. And AEW isn't trying to be that. It's a product for wrestling fans. And if that means they draw less fans than WWE... cool. Who gives a shit. Maybe tv executives, but they're not here.

[Futureraven: Beelzebruv]

Jun 13, 2022 2:37:55 GMT -5 @flaminghalo said:

Jun 13, 2022 1:49:38 GMT -5 @negan said:

They're coming in right now, seeing this New Japan stuff and probably tuning right back out.

Again, you would have to be a smark fan to enjoy Puroresu. Most Japanese wrestling fans seeked it out cause they enjoyed the workrate and wanted an alternative. That means they were already watching wrestling before.

Whether people want to admit or not, this won't catch NEW fans attention in droves. There's a reason the Attitude Era was the most popular. It was because they did things non wrestling fans would be interested in... Even if it was sexist or offensive, it got views and interest.

People say stuff like "Nobody would watch a Lingerie Pillow Fight"... In actual fact, that would get loads more viewers than Serena Deeb vs Hikaru Shida. I am not saying its right, I'm just saying that's how the world works.

On the flip side, more people would tune in to see Mike Tyson vs Chris Jericho than they would Will Osperay vs Dante Martin.

This PPV is great for the niche fans. The hard cores. And if AEW want to keep pleasing them, then great. But they will never evolve by doing this. If they want to be the number 1 company, they have to cater to the masses. The casual fans who probably stopped watching years ago cause it became "too PG" or the new fans who happen to be flicking through the channels and see something crazy. That's what will grow their popularity.

Hardcore smark fans like us will watch regardless.

To be frank, the show you describe sounds f***ing shit. You have WWE for that which is one of a thousand reasons I don't watch WWE. Why compete for mainstream fans when they have WWE anyway. By brand awareness alone WWE won't be toppled so why do it. And AEW isn't trying to be that. It's a product for wrestling fans. And if that means they draw less fans than WWE... cool. Who gives a shit. Maybe tv executives, but they're not here.

The lingerie pillow fight thing is just weird and wrong as well as horrible sexist and shit.

Even back then the women were disposable, piss break segments, the women who were over and draws were the ones who actually did cool things like Chyna and Lita, no one was tuning in for Terri Runnels and the Kat.

Then you get into stuff since then we've had many examples over multiple companies that women are now an integral part of the show as wrestlers, including, but not limited to... um... headlining Wrestlemania, just a little thing like that.

[Deleted]

Jun 13, 2022 2:58:03 GMT -5 Futureraven: Beelzebruv said:

Jun 13, 2022 2:37:55 GMT -5 @flaminghalo said:

To be frank, the show you describe sounds f***ing shit. You have WWE for that which is one of a thousand reasons I don't watch WWE. Why compete for mainstream fans when they have WWE anyway. By brand awareness alone WWE won't be toppled so why do it. And AEW isn't trying to be that. It's a product for wrestling fans. And if that means they draw less fans than WWE... cool. Who gives a shit. Maybe tv executives, but they're not here.

The lingerie pillow fight thing is just weird and wrong as well as horrible sexist and shit.

Even back then the women were disposable, piss break segments, the women who were over and draws were the ones who actually did cool things like Chyna and Lita, no one was tuning in for Terri Runnels and the Kat.

Then you get into stuff since then we've had many examples over multiple companies that women are now an integral part of the show as wrestlers, including, but not limited to... um... headlining Wrestlemania, just a little thing like that.

You pick The Kat and Terri Runnels because it doesn't suit your argument.

You and I both know that Torrie Wilson, Stacy Keibler and Sunny were massively over and they never had to wrestle.

This is an off topic debate anyway. I just used it as an example of how AEW do things that don't appeal to the masses.

Like I said, they can stick to their niche and the hardcore fans can enjoy it. Even if its 18 thousand of them. It won't make them any more popular or known to the casuals.

People act like that's not what they're trying to do which is complete bullshit. Of course Tony Khan wants more viewers and more money. That's the aim of every business.

[Blade]

"The masses" |= "what 90s teenagers wanted to see".

And as someone who watched at the time, Sasha Banks was way more over than Stacy Keibler, and Becky Lynch was way more over than Wilson, Keibler and Sunny combined.

[Mid-Carder]

I would be very surprised if there are many "casual" fans watching AEW. It seems very much designed for the loyal pro wrestling fan, which is a good thing and I think why most of us enjoy it so much. 

[Deleted]

Jun 13, 2022 3:05:39 GMT -5 @negan said:

Jun 13, 2022 2:58:03 GMT -5 Futureraven: Beelzebruv said:

The lingerie pillow fight thing is just weird and wrong as well as horrible sexist and shit.

Even back then the women were disposable, piss break segments, the women who were over and draws were the ones who actually did cool things like Chyna and Lita, no one was tuning in for Terri Runnels and the Kat.

Then you get into stuff since then we've had many examples over multiple companies that women are now an integral part of the show as wrestlers, including, but not limited to... um... headlining Wrestlemania, just a little thing like that.

You pick The Kat and Terri Runnels because it doesn't suit your argument.

You and I both know that Torrie Wilson, Stacy Keibler and Sunny were massively over and they never had to wrestle.

This is an off topic debate anyway. I just used it as an example of how AEW do things that don't appeal to the masses.

Like I said, they can stick to their niche and the hardcore fans can enjoy it. Even if its 18 thousand of them. It won't make them any more popular or known to the casuals.

People act like that's not what they're trying to do which is complete bullshit. Of course Tony Khan wants more viewers and more money. That's the aim of every business.

And to act like the only way to do that is to appeal by the mythological casual viewer buy making it a version of WWE, and a version of WWE from 20 bloody years ago, is also complete bullshit.

Fundamentally your argument comes down to 'the only way AEW can grow is by appealing to what I think a group of fans (that don't exist) want'

Growth and the perpetual need for it (which is a political rant I won't get into) is such a dumb argument to be made on a wrestling forum that I go full Rock eye roll.

If this wrestling show and the New Japan stuff doesn't do it for you... fine. You have WWE. Have fun.

[Futureraven: Beelzebruv]

Jun 13, 2022 3:05:39 GMT -5 @negan said:

Jun 13, 2022 2:58:03 GMT -5 Futureraven: Beelzebruv said:

The lingerie pillow fight thing is just weird and wrong as well as horrible sexist and shit.

Even back then the women were disposable, piss break segments, the women who were over and draws were the ones who actually did cool things like Chyna and Lita, no one was tuning in for Terri Runnels and the Kat.

Then you get into stuff since then we've had many examples over multiple companies that women are now an integral part of the show as wrestlers, including, but not limited to... um... headlining Wrestlemania, just a little thing like that.

You pick The Kat and Terri Runnels because it doesn't suit your argument.

You and I both know that Torrie Wilson, Stacy Keibler and Sunny were massively over and they never had to wrestle.

This is an off topic debate anyway. I just used it as an example of how AEW do things that don't appeal to the masses.

Like I said, they can stick to their niche and the hardcore fans can enjoy it. Even if its 18 thousand of them. It won't make them any more popular or known to the casuals.

People act like that's not what they're trying to do which is complete bullshit. Of course Tony Khan wants more viewers and more money. That's the aim of every business.

Sunny was pretty much out the door by the attitude era and never had a match. Stacy and Torrie got pops, how much merch did they have? What memorable things did they do? They were great, I was the perfect age, but they weren't draws, they were still the pissbreak, just popular with those remaining.


Could also have gone with Sable, but then again, when was she at her most over? When she was kicking ass in an angle.

And to bring things on topic, what would people like as an explanaition of what's happening? I'm aware of of NJPW, never watched a second.

From just AEW TV we have:

NJPW is the biggest company in Japan, so these are top level guys.
We've seen some of them, who I'm expecting to get involved.
Mox has been going over regularly and had one of their belts, so they're going to be tough.
The guy CM Punk challenged is part of the tournament to be the interim champion.
Hangman who's the loved former champion called out their top guy.
One of their groups has beat down FTR and Roppongi Vice twice now.

Hoping to get some highlight reals and appearances by more guys from there, but they have been setting this up as a big deal with top talent.

There's always more that can be done, but it's a good foundation.

So what does selling this look like to people?

[Clash, Never a Meter Maid]

AEW *does* have a problem with being overly inside-baseball to new fans sometimes, but them working with NJPW doesn't count. Pandemic restrictions aside, they've still got a big stateside following and they draw good money over here.

There's also been a fair amount of celebs on Dynamite. They're already chasing the mainstream (and wisely so).

As for more sex appeal, all three major companies have plenty of that anyway. Pieter in New Japan is sexualized as hell (that's not a complaint, BTW) but she fits Yujiro's persona.

[Kalmia]

If it was as simple as sex sells in 2022, NXT would have record ratings instead of losing viewers and having the oldest demographic of any show. Attracting a new audience has never been more complicated and difficult because audiences have never had as much choice. Maybe a crossover with a Japanese promotion will turn off anybody new who finds AEW or maybe it will attract anybody new that finds AEW and loves other forms of Japanese entertainment.

The problem with attracting the mythical casual fan is that even if you find them, they can leave just as easily. Forbidden Door is more likely to grab hold of the hardcore wrestling fan - the type that stays through thick and thin.

I also think that sometimes, we underestimate the intelligence of people. How many times have you started watching a TV show part the way through and had to either go with the flow or rapidly try and catch up? Why is wrestling this show that needs to have every single thing constantly spelled out for people who are new/unaware of history? Ospreay walks out, gets a great crowd reaction, has the commentators putting him over as a huge and successful star, and then wrestles a good match on the next show. That's a better introduction than most new characters on scripted shows get.