Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Feb 15, 2023 12:07:53 GMT -5
I have a very real question...when will a team try the disposable QB method? I thought Philly was gonna do it but they're saying they're paying Hurts.. I really can't fathom why no team has tried this method...draft a 2nd round college QB that is a Lamar/Hurts etc type of player. Surround them with premium talent as you aren't paying a QB, when those 4 years are up if he's been good, you deal him for picks, draft another one, rinse wash repeat. These QB's running like crazy will lead to shorter primes etc so why not? Eventually someone is going to learn unless you have a true generational passer back there, paying all this money to QB's is not how you win. I mean shit Dak Prescott is killing the Cowboys and that list honestly is far bigger than he is. Anyone agree with this thought? Someone should try it, there have been worse team building ideas. I think the main issue is - when do you let go? Both the Eagles and Ravens will feel they are on the cusp of winning a Super Bowl if things break right. If they jettison their QBs and draft a dud, everyone is probably getting fired and they'll have closed their own window. And you can win with a vet - I think only Wilson and Mahomes will have won a SB on their rookie deal in the past 10 years. The Ravens are not on the cusp man, they're a fringe playoff team.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Feb 15, 2023 12:20:10 GMT -5
There can be many factors, to be honest. First, there is the fact that Andy Reid is a limiting factor for him. Sure, it did not stop Matt Nagy from getting a job but that shadow is quite obstructive. Second, and this one is rather key, he doesn't seem to interview well. GMs have to spend a lot of time with their HC and owners have their coach as the face of their franchise, so you need to demonstrate during your interview that you are a personal match for what they want. He does get the occasional look, including going through two rounds of interviews with the Colts (who I'll remind you previously hired Dungy and Caldwell as HCs under Irsay, so I think you can move past the race factor here). They let a handful of their candidates know they were hiring someone else before officially hiring Steichen (including Bieniemy), leaving a couple without being notified in case Steichen backed out (wonder why they feel the need to do that?). Most notably, they seemed to have Raheem Morris as their Plan B, even though they were looking for an offensive coach. He really impressed them during his interviews, and apparently Bieniemy did not. It seems odd that teams hired OC after OC from Reid for years until Bieniemy f*** Matt Nagy got a HC job. Hell, Matt Nagy might be part of the damned problem. It's sort of like how no one should get hired from under the Belichick umbrella. Only the Notorious BOB can claim any real success, and even he flamed out HARD in the end. As I said, I think the main problem is Bieniemy himself. He really doesn't seem to interview well. Have you ever known someone who was aces at their chosen profession who struggled to get jobs because they were shit at the interview process? It seems as though he is one.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Feb 15, 2023 12:23:50 GMT -5
It seems odd that teams hired OC after OC from Reid for years until Bieniemy f*** Matt Nagy got a HC job. Hell, Matt Nagy might be part of the damned problem. It's sort of like how no one should get hired from under the Belichick umbrella. Only the Notorious BOB can claim any real success, and even he flamed out HARD in the end. As I said, I think the main problem is Bieniemy himself. He really doesn't seem to interview well. Have you ever known someone who was aces at their chosen profession who struggled to get jobs because they were shit at the interview process? It seems as though he is one. Now in fairness the Reid tree is far superior to the Belichick tree in success, people laugh at Brad Childress dude was more successful than anyone Belichick spawned.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Feb 15, 2023 12:31:45 GMT -5
Hell, Matt Nagy might be part of the damned problem. It's sort of like how no one should get hired from under the Belichick umbrella. Only the Notorious BOB can claim any real success, and even he flamed out HARD in the end. As I said, I think the main problem is Bieniemy himself. He really doesn't seem to interview well. Have you ever known someone who was aces at their chosen profession who struggled to get jobs because they were shit at the interview process? It seems as though he is one. Now in fairness the Reid tree is far superior to the Belichick tree in success, people laugh at Brad Childress dude was more successful than anyone Belichick spawned. I think both coaching trees are probably inferior to the Mike Shanahan coaching tree. There are 5 current head coaches on the tree and a couple of Super Bowl titles from the tree as head coaches (not to mention the rings as coordinators and assistants). Edit: If you add McVay's tree in as part of Shanahan's you can add three more head coaches to the total.
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Post by stoptheclocks on Feb 15, 2023 12:50:59 GMT -5
Someone should try it, there have been worse team building ideas. I think the main issue is - when do you let go? Both the Eagles and Ravens will feel they are on the cusp of winning a Super Bowl if things break right. If they jettison their QBs and draft a dud, everyone is probably getting fired and they'll have closed their own window. And you can win with a vet - I think only Wilson and Mahomes will have won a SB on their rookie deal in the past 10 years. The Ravens are not on the cusp man, they're a fringe playoff team. I said what they feel, not what you or I feel. Regardless, with a healthy Lamar they're quite obviously contenders. They should have beaten the Bengals on the road with Tyler Huntley and an XFL group of wide receivers. Arguably the best defense in the NFL and a 26 year old former MVP at quarterback? Yes, you can go places with that.
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Post by The Captain on Feb 15, 2023 13:12:49 GMT -5
I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept the NFL still has a massive racism issue when it comes to head coaches. Shit, it took until like a few years ago for it to be somewhat more accepted that Black people could play a "smart" position like quarterback without being run-first (remember the hot takes about how Lamar Jackson should've been drafted as a wide receiver?).
Every mediocre offensive coordinator-turned head coach can get chances to get head coaching gigs but Bieniemy can't even get a single chance. What do they have in common? They're white.
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Post by Citizen Grimm on Feb 15, 2023 13:13:30 GMT -5
Now in fairness the Reid tree is far superior to the Belichick tree in success, people laugh at Brad Childress dude was more successful than anyone Belichick spawned. I think both coaching trees are probably inferior to the Mike Shanahan coaching tree. There are 5 current head coaches on the tree and a couple of Super Bowl titles from the tree as head coaches (not to mention the rings as coordinators and assistants). Edit: If you add McVay's tree in as part of Shanahan's you can add three more head coaches to the total. I don't know about that. Reid's is pretty successful in his own right. John Harbaugh (Super Bowl winner), Doug Pederson (Super Bowl winner), Ron Rivera (Super Bowl appearance), Sean McDermott (AFC Championship appearance). Brad Childress, Matt Nagy, Leslie Frazier and Todd Bowles are all admittedly meh at best. Also, when do draw the cut off line for coaching trees? McVay should be under Shanahan's but also have his own tree. Just like Andy Reid and Jon Gruden are from Mike Holmgren's coaching tree. Shit, Holmgren might still have the best coaching tree when all is said and done.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Feb 15, 2023 13:14:42 GMT -5
I think both coaching trees are probably inferior to the Mike Shanahan coaching tree. There are 5 current head coaches on the tree and a couple of Super Bowl titles from the tree as head coaches (not to mention the rings as coordinators and assistants). Edit: If you add McVay's tree in as part of Shanahan's you can add three more head coaches to the total. I don't know about that. Reid's is pretty successful in his own right. John Harbaugh (Super Bowl winner), Doug Pederson (Super Bowl winner), Ron Rivera (Super Bowl appearance), Sean McDermott (AFC Championship appearance). Brad Childress, Matt Nagy, Leslie Frazier and Todd Bowles are all admittedly meh at best. Also, when do draw the cut off line for coaching trees? McVay should be under Shanahan's but also have his own tree. Just like Andy Reid and Jon Gruden are from Mike Holmgren's coaching tree. Shit, Holmgren might still have the best coaching tree when all is said and done. Bill Walsh, that's basically the best tree and spawned more great trees under it.
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Post by Citizen Grimm on Feb 15, 2023 13:19:02 GMT -5
I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept the NFL still has a massive racism issue when it comes to head coaches. Shit, it took until like a few years ago for it to be somewhat more accepted that Black people could play a "smart" position like quarterback without being run-first (remember the hot takes about how Lamar Jackson should've been drafted as a wide receiver?). Every mediocre offensive coordinator-turned head coach can get chances to get head coaching gigs but Bieniemy can't even get a single chance. What do they have in common? They're white. Not to say that it isn't an issue, but DeMeco Ryans was probably the most sought after coordinator this entire off-season to be a head coach. Bieniemy might just be really bad at interviewing. If you do mean offensive coordinator only, there are only three possibly options (which is a big issue in and of itself) in Bieniemy, Byron Leftwich and Pep Hamilton (who looks to be out now with the Texans). Leftwich was a hot name as a potential HC until Tampa Bay bombed hard this year.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Feb 15, 2023 13:35:08 GMT -5
Lets talk about something interesting here..
This was supposed to be the year to get the Chiefs, all the rookies, rebuilding etc etc...after this year it gets way harder for everyone else QB contracts either kick in or are inbound...the top contenders are all going to lose important players.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Feb 15, 2023 14:00:46 GMT -5
Lets talk about something interesting here.. This was supposed to be the year to get the Chiefs, all the rookies, rebuilding etc etc...after this year it gets way harder for everyone else QB contracts either kick in or are inbound...the top contenders are all going to lose important players. I don't know. The Jags are trending in the right direction after wasting TLaw's rookie season with the Urban Meyer Experience. If he really is as good as he seems he can be, next year could be the year it all clicks for him. If that happens, they could be scary.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Feb 15, 2023 14:02:55 GMT -5
I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept the NFL still has a massive racism issue when it comes to head coaches. Shit, it took until like a few years ago for it to be somewhat more accepted that Black people could play a "smart" position like quarterback without being run-first (remember the hot takes about how Lamar Jackson should've been drafted as a wide receiver?). Every mediocre offensive coordinator-turned head coach can get chances to get head coaching gigs but Bieniemy can't even get a single chance. What do they have in common? They're white. Not to say that it isn't an issue, but DeMeco Ryans was probably the most sought after coordinator this entire off-season to be a head coach. Bieniemy might just be really bad at interviewing. If you do mean offensive coordinator only, there are only three possibly options (which is a big issue in and of itself) in Bieniemy, Byron Leftwich and Pep Hamilton (who looks to be out now with the Texans). Leftwich was a hot name as a potential HC until Tampa Bay bombed hard this year. I feel like Leftwich will definitely get another bite at the OC apple (not sure if Pep does, at least at the NFL level). When he does, if he is successful once again his name will heat up quickly.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Feb 15, 2023 14:02:59 GMT -5
Lets talk about something interesting here.. This was supposed to be the year to get the Chiefs, all the rookies, rebuilding etc etc...after this year it gets way harder for everyone else QB contracts either kick in or are inbound...the top contenders are all going to lose important players. I don't know. The Jags are trending in the right direction after wasting TLaw's rookie season with the Urban Meyer Experience. If he really is as good as he seems he can be, next year could be the year it all clicks for him. If that happens, they could be scary. The Jags are one of the few in the AFC trending up I'll give them that... Bills are gonna be worse Cincy is already talking getting rid of guys Chargers have cap problems and have to pay Herbert Ravens and the Lamar saga Titans look to have fell off a cliff The Chiefs winning a SB after paying Mahomes and retooling their team is bad news for everyone else.
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Post by sfvega on Feb 15, 2023 14:04:57 GMT -5
I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept the NFL still has a massive racism issue when it comes to head coaches. Shit, it took until like a few years ago for it to be somewhat more accepted that Black people could play a "smart" position like quarterback without being run-first (remember the hot takes about how Lamar Jackson should've been drafted as a wide receiver?). Every mediocre offensive coordinator-turned head coach can get chances to get head coaching gigs but Bieniemy can't even get a single chance. What do they have in common? They're white. It's likely an extension of the same discrimination. How many black head coaches have there been? How many of them have been defensive assistants or coordinators? All of them except Denny Green, Jim Caldwell, Hugh Jackson, and Anthony Lynn. So it either is a stigma that still exists or the previous mindset lags behind still today; that it took longer for guys to get jobs like RB/WR coach and now have longer to work their way up. How many black QBs coaches have there been? There's, I think, two serving as QB coach today. Two black OCs. As with a lot of discrimination, it ends up having a ripple effect that lasts many years longer. But I do think some of it is that a lot of the same old stuffy owners, who were perpetrating the racism to being with, have to sign off on these hires and it's not out of line to think their mindset hasn't changed. Like how we've seen many times with The Rooney Rule how teams give a token interview with their hiring process not changing at all.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Feb 15, 2023 14:19:24 GMT -5
I don't know why it's so hard for people to accept the NFL still has a massive racism issue when it comes to head coaches. Shit, it took until like a few years ago for it to be somewhat more accepted that Black people could play a "smart" position like quarterback without being run-first (remember the hot takes about how Lamar Jackson should've been drafted as a wide receiver?). Every mediocre offensive coordinator-turned head coach can get chances to get head coaching gigs but Bieniemy can't even get a single chance. What do they have in common? They're white. It's likely an extension of the same discrimination. How many black head coaches have there been? How many of them have been defensive assistants or coordinators? All of them except Denny Green, Jim Caldwell, Hugh Jackson, and Anthony Lynn. So it either is a stigma that still exists or the previous mindset lags behind still today; that it took longer for guys to get jobs like RB/WR coach and now have longer to work their way up. How many black QBs coaches have there been? There's, I think, two serving as QB coach today. Two black OCs. As with a lot of discrimination, it ends up having a ripple effect that lasts many years longer. But I do think some of it is that a lot of the same old stuffy owners, who were perpetrating the racism to being with, have to sign off on these hires and it's not out of line to think their mindset hasn't changed. Like how we've seen many times with The Rooney Rule how teams give a token interview with their hiring process not changing at all. There's all sorts of theories about hell some people think EB isn't getting a job because teams don't want to give the Chiefs extra draft picks.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Feb 15, 2023 14:21:38 GMT -5
I don't know. The Jags are trending in the right direction after wasting TLaw's rookie season with the Urban Meyer Experience. If he really is as good as he seems he can be, next year could be the year it all clicks for him. If that happens, they could be scary. The Jags are one of the few in the AFC trending up I'll give them that... Bills are gonna be worse Cincy is already talking getting rid of guys Chargers have cap problems and have to pay Herbert Ravens and the Lamar saga Titans look to have fell off a cliff The Chiefs winning a SB after paying Mahomes and retooling their team is bad news for everyone else. It's debatable whether the Bills or Cincy are going to be worse. Are they going to lose talent? Yes, but sometimes that isn't the worst thing ever. Sometimes bargain players given opportunity to shine do just that. Sometimes veterans who have to take less than they used to because of their age can prove that they still have it (honestly, as a Colt fan I am accustomed to bargain veteran DBs coming here and balling out like Rodney McLeod did this season). Sometimes veteran situational pass rushers like Justin Houston are still ridiculously effective during the limited snaps they might get. Sometimes role players do well when given more snaps. Sometimes players that were shit on another team were shit because they were not a good fit for their old team's system. Sometimes players do better on better coached teams and outplay their contracts. The Chargers' cap problems would be hard to ignore, but if the Saints can get under cap every year than every team can do so. The Lamar saga is a much bigger problem. It strikes me as a case where he saw the deal the Nasty Man got and said, "Hey, I'm NOT an utter POS of a human being, have won an MVP award, and am younger than him. If he can get that kind of deal then teams would trip over themselves to offer me a much better deal. The least my team can do is match that deal." Unfortunately, the Ravens are reluctant to do so for reasons that are understandable but not insurmountable.
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Mecca
Wade Wilson
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Post by Mecca on Feb 15, 2023 14:31:02 GMT -5
The Jags are one of the few in the AFC trending up I'll give them that... Bills are gonna be worse Cincy is already talking getting rid of guys Chargers have cap problems and have to pay Herbert Ravens and the Lamar saga Titans look to have fell off a cliff The Chiefs winning a SB after paying Mahomes and retooling their team is bad news for everyone else. It's debatable whether the Bills or Cincy are going to be worse. Are they going to lose talent? Yes, but sometimes that isn't the worst thing ever. Sometimes bargain players given opportunity to shine do just that. Sometimes veterans who have to take less than they used to because of their age can prove that they still have it (honestly, as a Colt fan I am accustomed to bargain veteran DBs coming here and balling out like Rodney McLeod did this season). Sometimes veteran situational pass rushers like Justin Houston are still ridiculously effective during the limited snaps they might get. Sometimes role players do well when given more snaps. Sometimes players that were shit on another team were shit because they were not a good fit for their old team's system. Sometimes players do better on better coached teams and outplay their contracts. The Chargers' cap problems would be hard to ignore, but if the Saints can get under cap every year than every team can do so. The Lamar saga is a much bigger problem. It strikes me as a case where he saw the deal the Nasty Man got and said, "Hey, I'm NOT an utter POS of a human being, have won an MVP award, and am younger than him. If he can get that kind of deal then teams would trip over themselves to offer me a much better deal. The least my team can do is match that deal." Unfortunately, the Ravens are reluctant to do so for reasons that are understandable but not insurmountable. Buffalo CAN restructure the following deals and get to around $30M in cap space before the draft, but doing all of them to create flexibility in 23 would make 24 and 25 much harder. Josh Allen (27, 23-28) Stefon Diggs (30, 23-27) Tr-Davious White (28, 23-25) Dion Dawkins (29, 23-26) Von Miller is a tough one. He is going to be 34 and is on the books through 2027, his age 38 season. So they COULD move some of that salary from 23 down the road. That would lock them into keeping him in 24 as the dead money would be higher than cap savings. They could get out in 25 for a $7M cap hit, after carrying him in 24 at $24M. They probably do that. I think White is a tough call. He is very clearly not the same after his ACL tear. Maybe with more time he gets back closer to what he was. But pushing that one down the road for 23 is definitely risky. Compound all this with the following: Ed Oliver, Epenesa, and Gabriel Davis are all on the last year of their rookie deals. They have a 5th year option on Oliver that probably gets picked up, but that option doesn't exist for the other 2. Tremaine Edmunds and Jordan Poyer (and Singletary) are all free agents. They likely want to keep at least Edmunds. Dane Jackson is, too, and is a RFA who will cost a bit to keep. All said, the Bills CAN create room in 2023 if they want to go in again. And probably will. But with restructures on all the guys I mention here, you're freeing up about $43M. Save $10M for the rookie class, and you're at $33M with two key defensive stars up for FA (Poyer and Edmunds), a key CB (Dane Jackson) and some extension options (Oliver, Epenesa, and Gabe Davis). Just not a lot of flexibility to go out and make a splash addition at that point. On top of that, Cincy is already talking getting rid of Mixon and Boyd and exploring trading Higgins.
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Dr. T is an alien
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Post by Dr. T is an alien on Feb 15, 2023 15:51:50 GMT -5
It's debatable whether the Bills or Cincy are going to be worse. Are they going to lose talent? Yes, but sometimes that isn't the worst thing ever. Sometimes bargain players given opportunity to shine do just that. Sometimes veterans who have to take less than they used to because of their age can prove that they still have it (honestly, as a Colt fan I am accustomed to bargain veteran DBs coming here and balling out like Rodney McLeod did this season). Sometimes veteran situational pass rushers like Justin Houston are still ridiculously effective during the limited snaps they might get. Sometimes role players do well when given more snaps. Sometimes players that were shit on another team were shit because they were not a good fit for their old team's system. Sometimes players do better on better coached teams and outplay their contracts. The Chargers' cap problems would be hard to ignore, but if the Saints can get under cap every year than every team can do so. The Lamar saga is a much bigger problem. It strikes me as a case where he saw the deal the Nasty Man got and said, "Hey, I'm NOT an utter POS of a human being, have won an MVP award, and am younger than him. If he can get that kind of deal then teams would trip over themselves to offer me a much better deal. The least my team can do is match that deal." Unfortunately, the Ravens are reluctant to do so for reasons that are understandable but not insurmountable. Buffalo CAN restructure the following deals and get to around $30M in cap space before the draft, but doing all of them to create flexibility in 23 would make 24 and 25 much harder. Josh Allen (27, 23-28) Stefon Diggs (30, 23-27) Tr-Davious White (28, 23-25) Dion Dawkins (29, 23-26) Von Miller is a tough one. He is going to be 34 and is on the books through 2027, his age 38 season. So they COULD move some of that salary from 23 down the road. That would lock them into keeping him in 24 as the dead money would be higher than cap savings. They could get out in 25 for a $7M cap hit, after carrying him in 24 at $24M. They probably do that. I think White is a tough call. He is very clearly not the same after his ACL tear. Maybe with more time he gets back closer to what he was. But pushing that one down the road for 23 is definitely risky. Compound all this with the following: Ed Oliver, Epenesa, and Gabriel Davis are all on the last year of their rookie deals. They have a 5th year option on Oliver that probably gets picked up, but that option doesn't exist for the other 2. Tremaine Edmunds and Jordan Poyer (and Singletary) are all free agents. They likely want to keep at least Edmunds. Dane Jackson is, too, and is a RFA who will cost a bit to keep. All said, the Bills CAN create room in 2023 if they want to go in again. And probably will. But with restructures on all the guys I mention here, you're freeing up about $43M. Save $10M for the rookie class, and you're at $33M with two key defensive stars up for FA (Poyer and Edmunds), a key CB (Dane Jackson) and some extension options (Oliver, Epenesa, and Gabe Davis). Just not a lot of flexibility to go out and make a splash addition at that point. On top of that, Cincy is already talking getting rid of Mixon and Boyd and exploring trading Higgins. Again, I’m not talking splash additions. If your team has a solid core, you can replace people with bargains. I’ll keep making Colts references since that’s the team I’m familiar with. DB Mike Adams was brought in cheap to replace cap casualties. He was cheap because he was older and had merely been passable up to that point. He thrived in the Pagano defense and made the Pro Bowl because of it. He helped with a couple of playoff runs before they had to let him sign elsewhere. LB Zaire Franklin was resigned last offseason and I thought he was overpaid at the time. Sure, he was a core special team member but rarely took defensive snaps because the Colts didn’t use his position (SAM) very often and he wasn’t anyone’s backup. However, Leonard spending most of the season hurt meant someone had to start at the Will position. Franklin won out the competition to do so and significantly outperformed his contract doing so. Because of that, I’m certain the Colts are letting yet another solid Mike LB leave as Okereke will cost a ton to retain, so if Franklin can start alongside Leonard why resign him?
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Feb 15, 2023 16:00:36 GMT -5
Okay, guys, just a heads up: let’s refrain from saying nasty or mean remarks towards the literal fans of a team.
Lord knows I have my heel franchises. As hard as I boo the Reds, the Red Sox and the Cubs, the fanbases as a whole to me are off limits.
Now if it’s like a case of a handful of fans of a team acting badly, sure I’ll critique those fans in isolation. Like the Cards fans who harassed Don Denkinger in 1985, he blew the call but knock it off, assholes, it’s just a game. The specific Cubs fans that went after Steve Bartman, no that wasn’t cool at all. But I’m not going to say anything like “you suck because you’re a Cubs fan” or “all fans of such-and-such team all act stupid”. no. For me that’s a bridge too far.
But like my baseball examples, this applies to all sports, kay?
Just a heads up. Carry on.
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XIII
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Post by XIII on Feb 15, 2023 16:08:30 GMT -5
Lets talk about something interesting here.. This was supposed to be the year to get the Chiefs, all the rookies, rebuilding etc etc...after this year it gets way harder for everyone else QB contracts either kick in or are inbound...the top contenders are all going to lose important players. I think every season is an absolute crapshoot. The Chiefs may have a lot of young players but you just never know if those same players are going to maintain their current level of success. Not to mention that the Chiefs(like most teams) are only going to go as far as Mahomes/their QB takes them. One serious injury and they're drafting in the top of the draft. So that said I think that the Chiefs are the favorites next season with the usual suspects right there with them but any or all of those teams could finish with a terrible record due to injury or off field issues.
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