Mecca
Wade Wilson
Posts: 25,185
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Post by Mecca on Jun 10, 2022 23:56:01 GMT -5
Taking the company public. That was a mistake on part of the fans, it led to sanitized and bland product. And nothing but tv deals etc.. Was good for business though.
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Nosnorb
El Dandy
Nachos and Fraggle Rock are TIMELESS.
Posts: 8,377
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Post by Nosnorb on Jun 10, 2022 23:59:34 GMT -5
Another one - giving Johnny Ace a position that held any sort of power. It resulted in WWE losing The Rock to Hollywood.
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Post by TOK Is the Target Demo on Jun 11, 2022 0:04:38 GMT -5
Another one - giving Johnny Ace a position that held any sort of power. It resulted in WWE losing The Rock to Hollywood. Ooh, that's a really good one. It also stunted the growth of their women's division for a decade and a half and burned bridges with a good amount of talent that made other people money.
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Post by Oh Cry Me a Screwball on Jun 11, 2022 0:06:41 GMT -5
Taking the company public. That was a mistake on part of the fans, it led to sanitized and bland product. And nothing but tv deals etc.. Was good for business though. Yeah, I can't agree with going public being a mistake at all, because being publicly owned may be the biggest reason WWE is so bulletproof in terms of being profitable in spite of the product being so sporadic quality-wise.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jun 11, 2022 0:07:26 GMT -5
Breaking the Deal with the World Wildlife Fund
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 245,403
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jun 11, 2022 0:14:23 GMT -5
Which is exactly why it's a big f*** up. He should have been. Eh. With how divisive as Cole has been in AEW, I don't think WWE missed out on a can't miss guy. He's divisive on FAN right now, for whatever reason, I don't hear him divisive with live crowds or like literally anywhere else, so I don't really agree with this assessment. I think the dude gets some of the weirdest, overblown hatred, here particularly, of any wrestler I've seen in awhile. And I'm not even agreeing that he's Vince's biggest f***up, far from it, but they were literally about to shave his head and make him Keith's manager... dude's way too talented for that to be what WWE saw in him, regardless of how you feel.
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Post by Banjo Is Broken on Jun 11, 2022 0:57:17 GMT -5
Calling himself a visionary.
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Post by cassonova on Jun 11, 2022 1:01:57 GMT -5
Making Chris Jericho Doink.
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Post by Hit Girl on Jun 11, 2022 1:02:38 GMT -5
Suspending a man 80 feet up in the air for the sake of a comedy skit.
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Post by TOK Is the Target Demo on Jun 11, 2022 1:08:06 GMT -5
Honestly, Owen's death doesn't belong in this thread and that's a horrific thing. Other than their insurance having to pay out Martha and losing out on a year or two of a post-stroke Bret being on a Legends contract, there was almost zero effect on Vince from a business perspective.
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Post by avenger on Jun 11, 2022 5:00:56 GMT -5
This is really revisionist. Who could he bring in? Kevin Nash? One of the main reasons WCW died (behind the scenes). Had a guaranteed contract with TimeWarner until the end of 2001 that was higher than anyone in the WWF locker room, and had no intention of letting go of it, and if he signed for anyone, he lost it. When he did sign, he was too injured to wrestle at first. While he was rehabbing, he injured his bicep. Finally, five months after his on-screen return, he tore his quad walking to the centre of the ring after taking a tag, finally executing his first wrestling move in a ring fourteen months after his on screen return. Not an option. Scott Hall? Fired in under 90 days after the plane ride from hell, was the last in a series of final straws on that European tour. Only made it to Wrestlemania because he was paired with Austin and there was no alternative opponent (Benoit was pencilled in, but not recovered from injury in time). Austin being paired with him at Wrestlemania caused Austin to walk out the first time. At the time, only worth anything at the box office with Nash. Not an option. Scott Steiner? Not medically cleared. Had one atrocious match for the ill-fated WWA in Australia. And by the time he signed, just not up to the in-ring quality of the WWF anymore. Not an option. Bill Goldberg? No passion for the business. Like Nash, he had a huge guaranteed contract with TimeWarner until 2003. TimeWarner eventually paid it up, and McMahon spent months negotiating. And Goldberg didn't want to go on the road, just to TV and PPV only (a huge factor in the fall of WCW was the stars not doing house shows, and also caused a major dip in business in WWE in 2003). Not an option. Sting? The year he spent in the rafters killed his interest in wrestling and he wanted to be a movie star. Another guaranteed contract (March 2002) that he didn't want to waive. Had zero interest in signing for McMahon, as he didn't want to work a schedule, and he didn't like the sexual content. Did two short tours, but only wrestled 19 times in the five years after WCW folded. Not an option. Ric Flair? Was already 52. Like Nash, Goldberg and Sting, he had a guaranteed contract, but settled his early to sign. He would have been a better mouthpiece, but people just didn't want to see him as a heel (something else that screwed WCW, and WWE in 2003), and could have more than carried his weight in a tag match, but not as a regular singles competitor. Hulk Hogan? Had initially refused to sign because of his lawsuit against WCW/Russo over the Bash at the Beach work/shoot. A one-PPV nostalgia pop wonder. After his Wrestlemania match with the Rock, Vince puts the title on him at Backlash, and the buyrate isn't great, Judgment Day where he loses the title is worse. Use him at Invasion, and you waste that one buyrate. Save him for Summerslam or the final showdown at Survivor Series. But a several month long program? No. They both knew it though. Hence had him putting over Angle and Lesnar, before Hogan threw his toys out of the pram, because McMahpn wanted him to put Lesnar over again. Came back a few months later for another nostalgia pop, and the short lived Mr America storyline which he quit before the payoff for "creative" reasons (ie, he had to job too often, and someone else got the spotlight). Eric Bischoff? McMahon tried to sign him, but Bischoff turned him down. Tried to start up a company called MatRats, which never got off the ground. Don't get me wrong, the Invasion was screwed up, but not because of who wasn't signed. It was screwed up because of how they treated who they did sign. DDP and especially Booker T should have been positioned as bigger threats than they were. Jericho could have been added to the Alliance side as a third threat (Benoit was injured), and RVD could have been elevated (although he wasn't making friends by potatoing opponents left right and centre). But DDP was already 45, and the top WWE guys were in the prime of their careers. Undertaker was the oldest main eventer at the age of 38, and was older than all the WCW main eventers. Booker was the only WCW main eventer under 40, and he's slightly older than Taker. Even with all that, the main reason the Invasion failed was that McMahon's ego got in the way (much like Jim Crockett's did when JCP bought out the UWF), and he had to present his guys as better than the failed opposition in every way. Most of those guys you mentioned were signed 6 months or so after the Invasion began. Vince could have offered them a buyout of their contracts. He did so with Booker T and DDP. They were just willing to accept far less than the others would have wanted. Vince didnt consider it because it would have upset guys like Taker. But I agree with rest of your points. I already said it in my post. The audience was intrigued enough by the second rate stars to give Invasion a huge buyrate. If Vince had treated them right it could have still been successful. But Vince has to be Vince There may be a world where a guy with Kevin Nash's work ethic would forgo a massive amount of money to sit at home, and instead take the same amount of money to work, but it's not this one. The only ones that would (Flair and DDP) did. Flair missed the business too much, and DDP knew he didn't have much time left as a wrestler, given his age. The rest of those under contract had done the bare minimum while WCW was alive, they were never going to agree to drop millions for doing nothing.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jun 11, 2022 5:07:05 GMT -5
Honestly, if the XFL never happened, the excuses for not just paying the buyout of the people on Time Warner contracts basically goes away because you have all that money to use to make more money.
So in essence, one big f***up, lead to another and they’re basically 1 and 2.
3 is thinking they can break an agreement they made with the World Wildlife Fund because something something Vince McMahon Damnit.
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
Posts: 41,831
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jun 11, 2022 5:10:49 GMT -5
Shitting the bed with the Invasion storyline. You really can only have this discussion as 'apart from the InVasion.' They had Booker T, DDP and the Natural Born Thrillers and still got 750,000 buys. They left billions on the table. Right. Don't let revisionist history fool you, fans were invested when it started. Even stuff like the maligned Steph owns ECW wasn't the immediate turning point. The fans *wanted* it to work, but the company shot themselves in both feet as well as about 11 other places with a parade of stupid booking and the shitty presentation of the Alliance.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jun 11, 2022 5:20:58 GMT -5
You really can only have this discussion as 'apart from the InVasion.' They had Booker T, DDP and the Natural Born Thrillers and still got 750,000 buys. They left billions on the table. Right. Don't let revisionist history fool you, fans were invested when it started. Even stuff like the maligned Steph owns ECW wasn't the immediate turning point. The fans *wanted* it to work, but the company shot themselves in both feet as well as about 11 other places with a parade of stupid booking and the shitty presentation of the Alliance. Also to add to them, they got that buyrate after a downward time where TV ratings were down and nobody was buying a PPV to see a worse version of the Austin/Undertaker feud and Benoit/Jericho being built up was almost too little too late.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2022 5:34:07 GMT -5
It's definitely the Invasion.
Not only was it poorly executed, if they simply waited another year or so, they could've had Flair, Hogan, Nash, Hall and Goldberg managed by Eric Bischoff.
Imagine those 5 going up against the likes of Austin, Rock, HHH, Taker and Angle in a big WCW vs WWF storyline.
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Post by Susan "Poison" Candy on Jun 11, 2022 9:26:11 GMT -5
Everything
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Post by nakedmideon on Jun 11, 2022 9:43:33 GMT -5
Shitting the bed with the Invasion storyline. This
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Post by polarbearpete on Jun 11, 2022 9:52:39 GMT -5
Eh. With how divisive as Cole has been in AEW, I don't think WWE missed out on a can't miss guy. He's divisive on FAN right now, for whatever reason, I don't hear him divisive with live crowds or like literally anywhere else, so I don't really agree with this assessment. I think the dude gets some of the weirdest, overblown hatred, here particularly, of any wrestler I've seen in awhile. And I'm not even agreeing that he's Vince's biggest f***up, far from it, but they were literally about to shave his head and make him Keith's manager... dude's way too talented for that to be what WWE saw in him, regardless of how you feel. Other forums are on board with not digging Cole, Meltzer boards especially. Definitely not FAN-specific.
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Post by darbus alan on Jun 11, 2022 10:53:42 GMT -5
Honestly, Owen's death doesn't belong in this thread and that's a horrific thing. Other than their insurance having to pay out Martha and losing out on a year or two of a post-stroke Bret being on a Legends contract, there was almost zero effect on Vince from a business perspective. Yeah, it was morally and ethically reprehensible. But from a business perspective? It was practically neutral outside of not being able to exploit it for profit due to Martha's rightfully never wanting to do anything with WWE again.
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schma
El Dandy
Who are you to doubt me?
Posts: 7,552
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Post by schma on Jun 11, 2022 11:59:30 GMT -5
This. Even without the major WCW stars Invasion had a huge buyrate for a non Mania. If he had stood up to his wrestlers and hired some of the big guys he could have made an insane amount of money. Even if he didnt hire the big guys the Invasion buyrate proves the audience could have been convinced to accept the WCW guys as a big deal if they were treated as such. This is really revisionist. Who could he bring in? Kevin Nash? One of the main reasons WCW died (behind the scenes). Had a guaranteed contract with TimeWarner until the end of 2001 that was higher than anyone in the WWF locker room, and had no intention of letting go of it, and if he signed for anyone, he lost it. When he did sign, he was too injured to wrestle at first. While he was rehabbing, he injured his bicep. Finally, five months after his on-screen return, he tore his quad walking to the centre of the ring after taking a tag, finally executing his first wrestling move in a ring fourteen months after his on screen return. Not an option. Scott Hall? Fired in under 90 days after the plane ride from hell, was the last in a series of final straws on that European tour. Only made it to Wrestlemania because he was paired with Austin and there was no alternative opponent (Benoit was pencilled in, but not recovered from injury in time). Austin being paired with him at Wrestlemania caused Austin to walk out the first time. At the time, only worth anything at the box office with Nash. Not an option. Scott Steiner? Not medically cleared. Had one atrocious match for the ill-fated WWA in Australia. And by the time he signed, just not up to the in-ring quality of the WWF anymore. Not an option. Bill Goldberg? No passion for the business. Like Nash, he had a huge guaranteed contract with TimeWarner until 2003. TimeWarner eventually paid it up, and McMahon spent months negotiating. And Goldberg didn't want to go on the road, just to TV and PPV only (a huge factor in the fall of WCW was the stars not doing house shows, and also caused a major dip in business in WWE in 2003). Not an option. Sting? The year he spent in the rafters killed his interest in wrestling and he wanted to be a movie star. Another guaranteed contract (March 2002) that he didn't want to waive. Had zero interest in signing for McMahon, as he didn't want to work a schedule, and he didn't like the sexual content. Did two short tours, but only wrestled 19 times in the five years after WCW folded. Not an option. Ric Flair? Was already 52. Like Nash, Goldberg and Sting, he had a guaranteed contract, but settled his early to sign. He would have been a better mouthpiece, but people just didn't want to see him as a heel (something else that screwed WCW, and WWE in 2003), and could have more than carried his weight in a tag match, but not as a regular singles competitor. Hulk Hogan? Had initially refused to sign because of his lawsuit against WCW/Russo over the Bash at the Beach work/shoot. A one-PPV nostalgia pop wonder. After his Wrestlemania match with the Rock, Vince puts the title on him at Backlash, and the buyrate isn't great, Judgment Day where he loses the title is worse. Use him at Invasion, and you waste that one buyrate. Save him for Summerslam or the final showdown at Survivor Series. But a several month long program? No. They both knew it though. Hence had him putting over Angle and Lesnar, before Hogan threw his toys out of the pram, because McMahpn wanted him to put Lesnar over again. Came back a few months later for another nostalgia pop, and the short lived Mr America storyline which he quit before the payoff for "creative" reasons (ie, he had to job too often, and someone else got the spotlight). Eric Bischoff? McMahon tried to sign him, but Bischoff turned him down. Tried to start up a company called MatRats, which never got off the ground. Don't get me wrong, the Invasion was screwed up, but not because of who wasn't signed. It was screwed up because of how they treated who they did sign. DDP and especially Booker T should have been positioned as bigger threats than they were. Jericho could have been added to the Alliance side as a third threat (Benoit was injured), and RVD could have been elevated (although he wasn't making friends by potatoing opponents left right and centre). But DDP was already 45, and the top WWE guys were in the prime of their careers. Undertaker was the oldest main eventer at the age of 38, and was older than all the WCW main eventers. Booker was the only WCW main eventer under 40, and he's slightly older than Taker. Even with all that, the main reason the Invasion failed was that McMahon's ego got in the way (much like Jim Crockett's did when JCP bought out the UWF), and he had to present his guys as better than the failed opposition in every way. While I agree that a lot of their top stars were older and past their best by date, most of them still had enough in the tank to transition to the other stars that WCW had been building the past few years. Even WCW was starting to move some of the old guard out of the most prominent spots in their final year and were building up new stars.
Then you also have people like Rey Mysterio Jr who had become a huge star in WCW and did in WWE not long after.
Nash had some unfortunate injuries but a lot of the guys you listed brought genuine recognition and would have at least had a short term effect on buyrates, certainly enough to build up those rising stars who weren't quite the big names. The other thing to consider though was that we were coming off an era where WWE and WCW were loaded from the bottom of the card to the top. There was genuine interest in many of the midcard guys too and some of those feuds would have paid the bills.
People were genuinely excited when Vince showed up announcing he had bought WCW. I was a fan of both shows at the time as were all of my friends and we spent so much time talking about dream matches and what we wanted to see. Something this big was unprecedented in wrestling. Also, there were a lot of WCW fans that weren't necessarily WWE fans. They likely tuned in with the loss of Nitro and I wouldn't be surprised if they were a big part of Invasion being so successful. However, when they saw the way the WCW guys were being treated they likely gave up and stopped watching.
There was a lot of money to be made with the Invasion even without the tippy top guys and WWE screwed it up big time.
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