What is Vince’s biggest f*** up

[ChitownKnight]

Business wise, not storyline wise. I think pushing Ambrose out of the door is one of them. The guy helped established AEW as THE competition

[FinalGwen]

The XFL wiping out the profit WWF made during 2000-2001 seems like a big one. Or the steroid trial.

[Nosnorb]

Shitting the bed with the Invasion storyline.

[Gravedigger's Biscuits]

I think the WBF might be the worst for two reasons.

A) It was a total waste of money at a time Vince couldn't afford to just throw it away.

B) Who the hell was it for? It was so niche. At least the XFL was a decent idea, poorly executed. The WBF was destined to fail from the moment it was conceived.

[Deleted]

Turning Austin heel in 2001, maybe? Even though I think it was great, I think it really hurt business.

[Raw is Doodie101]

I don't think Ambrose is in his top 10 tbh.

Owen Hart's death is the obvious one.

Not turning Roman heel in 2017 after beating the Undertaker. If he'd done the turn earlier, you would have solved many issues because you could have done the tribal chief storyline earlier and gave Dean and Seth fresh matchups. It would have made the Cena match that year better. Would have given a different dynamic to his feud with Brock.

To me, I hated the 2017 - 2019 WWE. Turning Roman Heel in 2017 would have freshened up the entire landscape of the company. I also think that when he gets diagnosed with cancer again, you already had the heel run and the fans would have been dying to cheer him when he returned. Thus, he's back to being a super babyface and you can do the shit you're doing with him now but as a face.
Dea
That to me is a defining error of WWE in the 2010s. If they just turn him heel, I don't think Dean leaves because he doesn't have to do the dumb-ass heel turn in 2018. They would have to push Dean and Seth more as a faces because they would need them to feel that big babyface role.

[Stone Coke Miami Watson 🥃]

Jun 10, 2022 14:59:10 GMT -5 Gravedigger's Biscuits said:

I think the WBF might be the worst for two reasons.

Who the hell was it for?

Vince himself and his bearskin rug...

[Feyrhausen]

Jun 10, 2022 14:56:22 GMT -5 Nosnorb said:

Shitting the bed with the Invasion storyline.

This. Even without the major WCW stars Invasion had a huge buyrate for a non Mania. If he had stood up to his wrestlers and hired some of the big guys he could have made an insane amount of money. Even if he didnt hire the big guys the Invasion buyrate proves the audience could have been convinced to accept the WCW guys as a big deal if they were treated as such.

[GodzillaIsMyMonster]

Jun 10, 2022 15:06:35 GMT -5 Feyrhausen said:

Jun 10, 2022 14:56:22 GMT -5 Nosnorb said:

Shitting the bed with the Invasion storyline.

This. Even without the major WCW stars Invasion had a huge buyrate for a non Mania. If he had stood up to his wrestlers and hired some of the big guys he could have made an insane amount of money. Even if he didnt hire the big guys the Invasion buyrate proves the audience could have been convinced to accept the WCW guys as a big deal if they were treated as such.

Yea, I'm pretty sure Invasion still is the highest non Mania buy rate in company history.

[Georgina's Fancy Water]

Not letting Droz, Prince Albert, and Key be a weird coke family for just a lil bit longer

[CeilingFan]

Not retiring in 2018.

[tirtefaa]

Yeah, I mean it's gotta be the Invasion.

Honorable mentions;

Black Saturday

Continuing Over the Edge 1999

Austin's untimely heel turn

Not seeing Daniel Bryan as the 'guy'

[Jindrak Mark]

Jun 10, 2022 14:56:22 GMT -5 Nosnorb said:

Shitting the bed with the Invasion storyline.

This will always be the one. It’s both business and storyline. Not waiting a year or so to do the invasion angle was a disastrous decision both financially and creatively. All the top stars (minus Sting) eventually came in later anyway but by then the WWF v WCW aspect, which should have been the biggest story in wrestling history, was dead.

Look at the buyrate the Invasion PPV drew with the WCW side being represented by Booker, DDP and a bunch of already WWF guys. It was an insane number just because the whole idea of WWF v WCW was so big. Now imagine the monster business you could have done every month on PPV for a year or two straight if it was a REAL WWF v WCW war with all the big names. Even booked poorly you would make mega money with a WWF led by Vince with Austin, Rock, HHH, Undertaker, Kane, Angle, Michaels, Jericho and Benoit v a WCW led by Bischoff with Goldberg, Sting, Flair, Hogan, Nash, Hall, Steiner, Booker and DDP. The amount of combinations of big time matches mixing and matching those names would have earned tens upon tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars. The PPV with Austin/Goldberg alone probably does a million PPV buys. Then there’s Austin/Hogan. Rock/Hogan. DX/Outsiders once Michaels returns. WWF v WCW Survivor Series match. WWF v WCW (v NWO?) war games match. A Royal Rumble match with all these names. You could go on and on.

[MiLB Fan]

Ignoring a legally binding agreement with the World Wildlife Fund that he himself presumably agreed to in 1994. I’d love to know how he thought he could win that case.

[Cyno]

All of Vince's biggest business f*** ups came from when he tried to prove he was more than the wrestling guy. WBF, ICOPRO, both incarnations of the XFL (granted the pandemic hastened the inevitable with 2.0 but i don't think it would've succeeded). The worst business screw ups of WWE pale in comparison.

[DrBackflipsHoffman]

not voluntarily handing himself into a nearby prison

[EvenBaldobombHasAJob]

That time his negligence got Owen killed

[avenger]

Jun 10, 2022 15:06:35 GMT -5 Feyrhausen said:

Jun 10, 2022 14:56:22 GMT -5 Nosnorb said:

Shitting the bed with the Invasion storyline.

This. Even without the major WCW stars Invasion had a huge buyrate for a non Mania. If he had stood up to his wrestlers and hired some of the big guys he could have made an insane amount of money. Even if he didnt hire the big guys the Invasion buyrate proves the audience could have been convinced to accept the WCW guys as a big deal if they were treated as such.

This is really revisionist. Who could he bring in?

Kevin Nash? One of the main reasons WCW died (behind the scenes). Had a guaranteed contract with TimeWarner until the end of 2001 that was higher than anyone in the WWF locker room, and had no intention of letting go of it, and if he signed for anyone, he lost it. When he did sign, he was too injured to wrestle at first. While he was rehabbing, he injured his bicep. Finally, five months after his on-screen return, he tore his quad walking to the centre of the ring after taking a tag, finally executing his first wrestling move in a ring fourteen months after his on screen return. Not an option.

Scott Hall? Fired in under 90 days after the plane ride from hell, was the last in a series of final straws on that European tour. Only made it to Wrestlemania because he was paired with Austin and there was no alternative opponent (Benoit was pencilled in, but not recovered from injury in time). Austin being paired with him at Wrestlemania caused Austin to walk out the first time. At the time, only worth anything at the box office with Nash. Not an option.

Scott Steiner? Not medically cleared. Had one atrocious match for the ill-fated WWA in Australia. And by the time he signed, just not up to the in-ring quality of the WWF anymore. Not an option.

Bill Goldberg? No passion for the business. Like Nash, he had a huge guaranteed contract with TimeWarner until 2003. TimeWarner eventually paid it up, and McMahon spent months negotiating. And Goldberg didn't want to go on the road, just to TV and PPV only (a huge factor in the fall of WCW was the stars not doing house shows, and also caused a major dip in business in WWE in 2003). Not an option.

Sting? The year he spent in the rafters killed his interest in wrestling and he wanted to be a movie star. Another guaranteed contract (March 2002) that he didn't want to waive. Had zero interest in signing for McMahon, as he didn't want to work a schedule, and he didn't like the sexual content. Did two short tours, but only wrestled 19 times in the five years after WCW folded. Not an option.

Ric Flair? Was already 52. Like Nash, Goldberg and Sting, he had a guaranteed contract, but settled his early to sign. He would have been a better mouthpiece, but people just didn't want to see him as a heel (something else that screwed WCW, and WWE in 2003), and could have more than carried his weight in a tag match, but not as a regular singles competitor.

Hulk Hogan? Had initially refused to sign because of his lawsuit against WCW/Russo over the Bash at the Beach work/shoot. A one-PPV nostalgia pop wonder. After his Wrestlemania match with the Rock, Vince puts the title on him at Backlash, and the buyrate isn't great, Judgment Day where he loses the title is worse. Use him at Invasion, and you waste that one buyrate. Save him for Summerslam or the final showdown at Survivor Series. But a several month long program? No. They both knew it though. Hence had him putting over Angle and Lesnar, before Hogan threw his toys out of the pram, because McMahpn wanted him to put Lesnar over again. Came back a few months later for another nostalgia pop, and the short lived Mr America storyline which he quit before the payoff for "creative" reasons (ie, he had to job too often, and someone else got the spotlight).

Eric Bischoff? McMahon tried to sign him, but Bischoff turned him down. Tried to start up a company called MatRats, which never got off the ground.

Don't get me wrong, the Invasion was screwed up, but not because of who wasn't signed. It was screwed up because of how they treated who they did sign. DDP and especially Booker T should have been positioned as bigger threats than they were. Jericho could have been added to the Alliance side as a third threat (Benoit was injured), and RVD could have been elevated (although he wasn't making friends by potatoing opponents left right and centre). But DDP was already 45, and the top WWE guys were in the prime of their careers. Undertaker was the oldest main eventer at the age of 38, and was older than all the WCW main eventers. Booker was the only WCW main eventer under 40, and he's slightly older than Taker.

Even with all that, the main reason the Invasion failed was that McMahon's ego got in the way (much like Jim Crockett's did when JCP bought out the UWF), and he had to present his guys as better than the failed opposition in every way.

[Feyrhausen]

Jun 10, 2022 16:07:17 GMT -5 avenger said:

Jun 10, 2022 15:06:35 GMT -5 Feyrhausen said:

This. Even without the major WCW stars Invasion had a huge buyrate for a non Mania. If he had stood up to his wrestlers and hired some of the big guys he could have made an insane amount of money. Even if he didnt hire the big guys the Invasion buyrate proves the audience could have been convinced to accept the WCW guys as a big deal if they were treated as such.

This is really revisionist. Who could he bring in?

Kevin Nash? One of the main reasons WCW died (behind the scenes). Had a guaranteed contract with TimeWarner until the end of 2001 that was higher than anyone in the WWF locker room, and had no intention of letting go of it, and if he signed for anyone, he lost it. When he did sign, he was too injured to wrestle at first. While he was rehabbing, he injured his bicep. Finally, five months after his on-screen return, he tore his quad walking to the centre of the ring after taking a tag, finally executing his first wrestling move in a ring fourteen months after his on screen return. Not an option.

Scott Hall? Fired in under 90 days after the plane ride from hell, was the last in a series of final straws on that European tour. Only made it to Wrestlemania because he was paired with Austin and there was no alternative opponent (Benoit was pencilled in, but not recovered from injury in time). Austin being paired with him at Wrestlemania caused Austin to walk out the first time. At the time, only worth anything at the box office with Nash. Not an option.

Scott Steiner? Not medically cleared. Had one atrocious match for the ill-fated WWA in Australia. And by the time he signed, just not up to the in-ring quality of the WWF anymore. Not an option.

Bill Goldberg? No passion for the business. Like Nash, he had a huge guaranteed contract with TimeWarner until 2003. TimeWarner eventually paid it up, and McMahon spent months negotiating. And Goldberg didn't want to go on the road, just to TV and PPV only (a huge factor in the fall of WCW was the stars not doing house shows, and also caused a major dip in business in WWE in 2003). Not an option.

Sting? The year he spent in the rafters killed his interest in wrestling and he wanted to be a movie star. Another guaranteed contract (March 2002) that he didn't want to waive. Had zero interest in signing for McMahon, as he didn't want to work a schedule, and he didn't like the sexual content. Did two short tours, but only wrestled 19 times in the five years after WCW folded. Not an option.

Ric Flair? Was already 52. Like Nash, Goldberg and Sting, he had a guaranteed contract, but settled his early to sign. He would have been a better mouthpiece, but people just didn't want to see him as a heel (something else that screwed WCW, and WWE in 2003), and could have more than carried his weight in a tag match, but not as a regular singles competitor.

Hulk Hogan? Had initially refused to sign because of his lawsuit against WCW/Russo over the Bash at the Beach work/shoot. A one-PPV nostalgia pop wonder. After his Wrestlemania match with the Rock, Vince puts the title on him at Backlash, and the buyrate isn't great, Judgment Day where he loses the title is worse. Use him at Invasion, and you waste that one buyrate. Save him for Summerslam or the final showdown at Survivor Series. But a several month long program? No. They both knew it though. Hence had him putting over Angle and Lesnar, before Hogan threw his toys out of the pram, because McMahpn wanted him to put Lesnar over again. Came back a few months later for another nostalgia pop, and the short lived Mr America storyline which he quit before the payoff for "creative" reasons (ie, he had to job too often, and someone else got the spotlight).

Eric Bischoff? McMahon tried to sign him, but Bischoff turned him down. Tried to start up a company called MatRats, which never got off the ground.

Don't get me wrong, the Invasion was screwed up, but not because of who wasn't signed. It was screwed up because of how they treated who they did sign. DDP and especially Booker T should have been positioned as bigger threats than they were. Jericho could have been added to the Alliance side as a third threat (Benoit was injured), and RVD could have been elevated (although he wasn't making friends by potatoing opponents left right and centre). But DDP was already 45, and the top WWE guys were in the prime of their careers. Undertaker was the oldest main eventer at the age of 38, and was older than all the WCW main eventers. Booker was the only WCW main eventer under 40, and he's slightly older than Taker.

Even with all that, the main reason the Invasion failed was that McMahon's ego got in the way (much like Jim Crockett's did when JCP bought out the UWF), and he had to present his guys as better than the failed opposition in every way.

Most of those guys you mentioned were signed 6 months or so after the Invasion began. Vince could have offered them a buyout of their contracts. He did so with Booker T and DDP. They were just willing to accept far less than the others would have wanted. Vince didnt consider it because it would have upset guys like Taker.

But I agree with rest of your points. I already said it in my post. The audience was intrigued enough by the second rate stars to give Invasion a huge buyrate. If Vince had treated them right it could have still been successful. But Vince has to be Vince

[Mid-Carder]

Jun 10, 2022 15:00:55 GMT -5 @dax said:

Turning Austin heel in 2001, maybe? Even though I think it was great, I think it really hurt business.

this is it. Because they did it TWICE.