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Post by Starshine on Jul 4, 2022 23:13:01 GMT -5
I think I'm just personally numb to the "guy is successful but doesn't deserve it" thing because it has been overdone so much in WWE thanks to the MITB gimmick. We see this every year. Someone undeserving wins a title or the briefcase and all it does for me is devalue the title. It's also been a half assed storyline in this case with Theory. There's no real long term commitment to storytelling here. Theory is Vince's chosen one but Vince also is a face on camera and also he sometimes doesn't give him preferential treatment. And don't get me started on how Pearce as a decision maker has been portrayed in terms of heel/face dynamics. At least with Seth way back, he was clearly the chosen one by the Authority. It was clear and he had a posse and everything. They went all the way with it. But in general, I think to get over as a heel, Theory needs more than selfie guy that Vince kinda likes sometimes. He needs an extra something. Which makes me think... has the chosen one gimmick for a heel worked for anybody that wasn't already over? Didn't work for Drew back in his first run, didn't work for Elijah Burke in ECW, didn't work for Magnus in TNA... ironically only one I really remember it working for is EC3 in TNA... but that's also cause he was portrayed as a bully that was then made to work hard, he showed he could handle himself. It's like WWE sometimes forgets it's not a belt or an association with someone popular that gets them over... and I'll keep bringing up what Lance Storm said WOL back during the mass releases. WWE would rather retry angles with different talent then try to write new things for certain talent. They really believe it's plug and play so to speak... it's why for the longest time they tried to make every face act like The Rock. It's also why their booking and presentation is just so uninteresting. Because everyone who's pushed has to fit into preconstructed roles rather than presenting their unique strengths which may not fit into these preestablished categories. So no matter who's at the top of the card, it's never interesting because they're almost always playing a role you've seen someone do before, and usually better.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jul 5, 2022 0:05:29 GMT -5
I think I'm just personally numb to the "guy is successful but doesn't deserve it" thing because it has been overdone so much in WWE thanks to the MITB gimmick. We see this every year. Someone undeserving wins a title or the briefcase and all it does for me is devalue the title. It's also been a half assed storyline in this case with Theory. There's no real long term commitment to storytelling here. Theory is Vince's chosen one but Vince also is a face on camera and also he sometimes doesn't give him preferential treatment. And don't get me started on how Pearce as a decision maker has been portrayed in terms of heel/face dynamics. At least with Seth way back, he was clearly the chosen one by the Authority. It was clear and he had a posse and everything. They went all the way with it. But in general, I think to get over as a heel, Theory needs more than selfie guy that Vince kinda likes sometimes. He needs an extra something. Which makes me think... has the chosen one gimmick for a heel worked for anybody that wasn't already over? Didn't work for Drew back in his first run, didn't work for Elijah Burke in ECW, didn't work for Magnus in TNA... ironically only one I really remember it working for is EC3 in TNA... but that's also cause he was portrayed as a bully that was then made to work hard, he showed he could handle himself. It's like WWE sometimes forgets it's not a belt or an association with someone popular that gets them over... and I'll keep bringing up what Lance Storm said WOL back during the mass releases. WWE would rather retry angles with different talent then try to write new things for certain talent. They really believe it's plug and play so to speak... it's why for the longest time they tried to make every face act like The Rock. the thing as I've been saying cocky heel that is labelled "The future" is so generic... but besides that like... the dumb himbo stuff would play into it so well... and add another dimension to this character that it desperately needs.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jul 5, 2022 3:17:43 GMT -5
Which makes me think... has the chosen one gimmick for a heel worked for anybody that wasn't already over? Didn't work for Drew back in his first run, didn't work for Elijah Burke in ECW, didn't work for Magnus in TNA... ironically only one I really remember it working for is EC3 in TNA... but that's also cause he was portrayed as a bully that was then made to work hard, he showed he could handle himself. It's like WWE sometimes forgets it's not a belt or an association with someone popular that gets them over... and I'll keep bringing up what Lance Storm said WOL back during the mass releases. WWE would rather retry angles with different talent then try to write new things for certain talent. They really believe it's plug and play so to speak... it's why for the longest time they tried to make every face act like The Rock. the thing as I've been saying cocky heel that is labelled "The future" is so generic... but besides that like... the dumb himbo stuff would play into it so well... and add another dimension to this character that it desperately needs. The only issue, and it wouldn't be anyone's fault as such, but him playing a himbo for Vince during the time the accusations and investigations would have come out...would be a look. But then this company cares about good PR in the smallest way possible so it'd probably be water off a duck's back.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 5, 2022 9:11:05 GMT -5
I can’t get over how dumb it is that he’s just named Theory now. The reducing people to a single name thing is bad enough usually, but Theory is the worst. His name is just a word now. It’s like having a wrestler named Curtains. I agree but it sometimes does still work out as the name becomes more identified with the person over time, so he’s not doomed. Mankind, Edge, Diesel and Sting spring to mind.
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Jul 5, 2022 9:17:35 GMT -5
the thing as I've been saying cocky heel that is labelled "The future" is so generic... but besides that like... the dumb himbo stuff would play into it so well... and add another dimension to this character that it desperately needs. The only issue, and it wouldn't be anyone's fault as such, but him playing a himbo for Vince during the time the accusations and investigations would have come out...would be a look. But then this company cares about good PR in the smallest way possible so it'd probably be water off a duck's back. I mean if they were concerned about optics they probably wouldn't be pushing Theory in the first place.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jul 5, 2022 9:20:44 GMT -5
The only issue, and it wouldn't be anyone's fault as such, but him playing a himbo for Vince during the time the accusations and investigations would have come out...would be a look. But then this company cares about good PR in the smallest way possible so it'd probably be water off a duck's back. I mean if they were concerned about optics they probably wouldn't be pushing Theory in the first place. Also true.
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Nr1Humanoid
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Post by Nr1Humanoid on Jul 5, 2022 10:04:46 GMT -5
He has that succulent bubble butt that Vince not so secretly love.
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Post by "American Nightmare" B.B. Bart on Jul 5, 2022 10:33:41 GMT -5
The reducing people to a single name thing is bad enough usually, but Theory is the worst. His name is just a word now. It’s like having a wrestler named Curtains. I agree but it sometimes does still work out as the name becomes more identified with the person over time, so he’s not doomed. Mankind, Edge, Diesel and Sting spring to mind. Of course, those guys didn't start out with full names for their gimmicks. Like, they didn't start off those gimmicks as Mike Mankind, David Edge, Dan Diesel, or Steven Sting, respectively.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jul 5, 2022 10:55:15 GMT -5
He has that succulent bubble butt that Vince not so secretly love. If Vince has seen the same leaked pics I have, can't say I blame him.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 5, 2022 11:03:37 GMT -5
I agree but it sometimes does still work out as the name becomes more identified with the person over time, so he’s not doomed. Mankind, Edge, Diesel and Sting spring to mind. Of course, those guys didn't start out with full names for their gimmicks. Like, they didn't start off those gimmicks as Mike Mankind, David Edge, Dan Diesel, or Steven Sting, respectively. True but over time, that becomes forgotten about if you’re successful enough. I’d prefer he keeps the first name, but that hasn’t hindered others like Bill Goldberg becoming Goldberg, Dave Batista becoming Batista, Rocky Maivia becoming The Rock, etc.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 5, 2022 11:51:15 GMT -5
Yeah, we've discussed the issue that Lance Storm brought up before; it's why a lot of WWE characters and storylines just feel like segments from a "build your own storyline" feature in a 2K game, it's the same situations and same beats with different people in the different roles. So rather than create something new to suit a wrestler's talents or mask their deficiencies, they just give them the same handful of situations and angles and tell them to fit the scenario rather than making the scenario suit them. I agree but it sometimes does still work out as the name becomes more identified with the person over time, so he’s not doomed. Mankind, Edge, Diesel and Sting spring to mind. Of course, those guys didn't start out with full names for their gimmicks. Like, they didn't start off those gimmicks as Mike Mankind, David Edge, Dan Diesel, or Steven Sting, respectively. Plus, "Diesel", "Sting", etc. are descriptive gimmick names - Nash playing a powerful, intimidating bodyguard, Steve Borden playing a face-painted superhero, Mick Foley playing a tortured mental case, etc. "Theory" denotes absolutely nothing. It's just treated as a last name; it's not like he's the Riddler or something playing a supervillain gimmick. On the bigger issue I've never seen Theory work, but thinking back to Orton's push circa 2004 the issue for me was always this sense of "you're supposed to think this guy is really good because we tell you he's really good." Don't get me wrong, that happens a lot in a scripted sport, but at a time when I was getting to know the work of wrestlers like AJ Styles, Bryan Danielson, and Samoa Joe, there was nothing about Orton that struck me as particularly interesting or worthy of such "he is THE FUTURE!" hype. That's not to say Orton's bad or that there was no reason to get behind him; dude's tall, handsome, and highly athletic, no doubt, and after awhile he at least did get a hook to his character that made him click better (even if I'll argue he has a history of just never really delivering in big matches). But it's hard to ignore that the push didn't really feel organic, and that in Orton's case his actual work wasn't at a high enough level to fully justify the treatment he was getting in his booking. Might just be the same feeling with Theory. And if we're gonna stretch out the whole metaphor that this is like someone being hungry and then rejecting food they're being sent, I have to wonder if at a certain point the issue isn't so much the person who's unsatisfied with the food being offered, and it's more with whomever the cook is preparing the food. "We want to see more new faces pushed...no, not like that" isn't an inconsistent position to take if one's feeling is that WWE does a poor job of presenting these new faces.
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Post by darbus alan on Jul 5, 2022 12:26:55 GMT -5
Go figure the one guy they didn't put through the WWE Name Generator. "Austin Theory" is the name he used in the indies.
Just "Theory" is a pretty dumb ring name on its own though. Unless he had some sort of STEM gimmick. At least with Goldberg, Batista, etc it's their actual last names or slight variations of them. Theory's real name is Austin White.
Then again, him coming out as "WHITE" would be... problematic.
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Jul 5, 2022 12:28:35 GMT -5
He has that succulent bubble butt that Vince not so secretly love. This might lead credence as to why he was as lenient with RVD as he was.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 5, 2022 12:34:18 GMT -5
I agree that Theory does not seem like he’s been built up enough to be a credible main eventer yet. But I’m pretty sure that’s the point and the storyline, that he’s completely undeserving of being Mr. MITB and world champion. He’s not been getting some crazy push where he’s winning clean over guys that are above him.
We’ll see how they follow up with him in the months to come.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jul 5, 2022 13:09:50 GMT -5
I personally just think he sucks he really bad and is being pushed above his weight class in a way that’s gonna do way more damage than good to his career in a company where you get one shot at the top before being written off and having to prove yourself all over again.
He’s young so he could get better…but that’s why you have f***ing NXT, hahaha.
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Jul 5, 2022 13:40:30 GMT -5
Okay first the good: I feel Theory’s got some good charisma IMO that he can hone, and some of the best heel mannerisms I’ve seen since Too Sexy Brian Christopher.
The bad? Those weird skeevy rumors of course, and even if he didn’t have those hanging over him he’s still a step behind most of the major stars on the main roster in terms of bell to bell wrestling, though I think he’s far from flat-out bad.
Right now he’s generically cocky and needs more seasoning/experience. He’s not as explosive as Cena was in 2003/2004 when he was developing, but John got better by spending so much in-ring time with top tier talent, so hopefully Theory could benefit from that.
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Jul 5, 2022 13:45:39 GMT -5
Okay first the good: I feel Theory’s got some good charisma IMO that he can hone, and some of the best heel mannerisms I’ve seen since Too Sexy Brian Christopher. The bad? Those weird skeevy rumors of course, and even if he didn’t have those hanging over him he’s still a step behind most of the major stars on the main roster in terms of bell to bell wrestling, though I think he’s far from flat-out bad. Right now he’s generically cocky and needs more seasoning/experience. He’s not as explosive as Cena was in 2003/2004 when he was developing, but John got better by spending so much in-ring time with top tier talent, so hopefully Theory could benefit from that.Everyone compares to Cena but he actually reminds me of Orton during the early evolution days. I hated Orton at that point. IWC did too in a similar fashion to Theory rn.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 5, 2022 13:47:12 GMT -5
Okay first the good: I feel Theory’s got some good charisma IMO that he can hone, and some of the best heel mannerisms I’ve seen since Too Sexy Brian Christopher. The bad? Those weird skeevy rumors of course, and even if he didn’t have those hanging over him he’s still a step behind most of the major stars on the main roster in terms of bell to bell wrestling, though I think he’s far from flat-out bad. Right now he’s generically cocky and needs more seasoning/experience. He’s not as explosive as Cena was in 2003/2004 when he was developing, but John got better by spending so much in-ring time with top tier talent, so hopefully Theory could benefit from that.Everyone compares to Cena but he actually reminds me of Orton during the early evolution days. I hated Orton at that point. IWC did too in a similar fashion to Theory rn. I can see that. I think it’ll take some feuds with big names like Orton’s with Taker and Foley plus some small character tweaks to get Theory to that main event level.
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Jul 5, 2022 13:52:25 GMT -5
Okay first the good: I feel Theory’s got some good charisma IMO that he can hone, and some of the best heel mannerisms I’ve seen since Too Sexy Brian Christopher. The bad? Those weird skeevy rumors of course, and even if he didn’t have those hanging over him he’s still a step behind most of the major stars on the main roster in terms of bell to bell wrestling, though I think he’s far from flat-out bad. Right now he’s generically cocky and needs more seasoning/experience. He’s not as explosive as Cena was in 2003/2004 when he was developing, but John got better by spending so much in-ring time with top tier talent, so hopefully Theory could benefit from that.Everyone compares to Cena but he actually reminds me of Orton during the early evolution days. Yeah, that's the vibes I get from him too. He's Orton circa 2003 who needs his version of the Mick Foley feud to make his sustained presence feel earned.
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Post by nisidhe on Jul 5, 2022 15:37:04 GMT -5
His association with Vince McMahon has become so problematic from a booking perspective that it might require severing that association in order to get him to a place where he can be rebuilt.
At present, Theory's positioning as a "chosen one" is not serving him well. He's very good at the heel work, but does such a thing really stand out when nearly everyone is a heel and when the faces are ineffective? He's Vince's new toy, but how long will Theory enjoy that position before either real-world events shift the ground under him or before Vince finds someone else new in-package.
I honestly don't get the appeal of Theory's look - I can count a rather large number of WWE talents who would outshine him looks- and/or charisma-wise. He's an "indie darling" apparently, but I've not heard of him before his stint in NXT. He may be an 8/10 across the board, but there's nothing really shouting out "superstar" or "Face of the company" to me. It sticks in my craw that far better and more charismatic wrestlers are on the roster, capable of making WWE truly great, and are getting buried and disrespected to the point at which only money might be keeping them there.
On the one hand, Theory is tailor-made for WWE; fully formed by their system and marketed precisely how they want him to be. On the other hand, what might have made him even greater is missing precisely because he's in WWE. The cookie-cutter, studio-system approach to talent development is utterly at odds with traditional booking and training methods; hell, it's at odds with what films and television are doing today. The entire atmosphere of WWE seems oppressive and Theory, by peeking up over the parapet, is perfectly poised to get beaned.
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