Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2022 12:31:52 GMT -5
Serious question.
I know most people are gonna say "No, as long as they're entertaining and can go in the ring, etc"
But I'll be honest. I have a soft spot for a bodybuilder powerhouse in wrestling. Guys like Brian Cage, Batista, Ryback, Ultimate Warrior, Lex Luger and others.
There is something about the larger than life guys that make wrestling feel different and less... Fake, I guess.
If we are being completely honest, watching a guy like Batista struggle with a guy like Adam Cole would be absolutely ridiculous to most people. In a real fight, it's clear the bigger guy would break the skinny guy with barely any muscle in half.
But wrestling seems to have abandoned this mentality over the years, for better or good
What do you think? Should the "Heavyweights" be all big jacked up guys and the midcarders be smaller? Or do you think it's fine watching smaller guys beat big guys?
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XIII
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by XIII on Jul 10, 2022 12:41:34 GMT -5
There definitely should be a better balance in regards to little guys beating bigger guys. Take MMA for instance guys like Khabib, Usman, and Mighty Mouse are way better fighters than someone like Brock ever was but if they fought Brock would dominate because he has some skills, is 100+ lbs heavier, and has way more power.
Wrestling is of course scripted, so there’s some room for smaller guys to make it to the top, but I think that it’s done too much anymore. Sometimes the big guy needs to dominate. It’s like the “who can throw the Big Show over the top rope at the Rumble!?” And the answer is everyone, because he’s eliminated every year., sometimes he needs to win one to make that make sense. 🤷🏻♂️
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Post by carter 15 on Jul 10, 2022 12:42:38 GMT -5
It’s not about physiques to me, it’s more about look. Bam Bam Bigelow had a great look. Bray Wyatt has never had low bodyfat, it didn’t matter. Bryan Danielson clearly puts the work in behind the scenes - like his character of best wrestler would.
It’s about immersion to me. Yes i’m always going to care about that.
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Post by Baldobomb-22-OH-MAN!!! on Jul 10, 2022 12:43:09 GMT -5
Not really. Overly muscled people look hilarious to me instead of intimidating like they're supposed to. All I can think of is how shrunken their testes must be.
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Jul 10, 2022 12:48:09 GMT -5
Not even remotely.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jul 10, 2022 12:52:16 GMT -5
Nope.
First off, big guys lose to smaller guys in real fights all the time.
Second off, it's scripted, you can literally have anything happen.
As long as the person is entertaining their physique doesn't really matter.
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Fade
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Post by Fade on Jul 10, 2022 12:53:21 GMT -5
It’s not about physiques to me, it’s more about look. Bam Bam Bigelow had a great look. Bray Wyatt has never had low bodyfat, it didn’t matter. Bryan Danielson clearly puts the work in behind the scenes - like his character of best wrestler would. It’s about immersion to me. Yes i’m always going to care about that. Yeah. Competitors having a “look” is vital but it’s a big spectrum. That includes muscle guys, lean people, hosses, whatever. You’ve got to have a “look”. It’s entertainment. It is a cosmetic business. Otis is a good current example. Great look. Even someone like Danielson has had very striking looks in the past and currently.
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Post by lavelleuk22 on Jul 10, 2022 12:58:53 GMT -5
Depends on how they're pushed or presenting. Cole and ReDragon don't work for me uberserious fighters, but Cole works as a guy who can hang long enough to cheat or sneak his way to victory
Same as Danhausen, never bothers me he's small as its not his thing to be intimidating, but I notice it with Jungle Boy at times when he's kicking out of everything
I think the only thing that truly bothers me is when you see bigger guys selling for someone the smaller guys don't sell for tbh
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Post by The Thread Barbi on Jul 10, 2022 13:03:57 GMT -5
Yes I do.
In my era, even "smaller" guys like Bret Hart or Shawn Michaels were built like brick shit houses compared to the average fan in attendance.
Unless you're a larger individual like Earthquake, you best look like you visit the gym a couple of times a week at least, no matter your weight class.
Does Chris Evans' Captain America look like he can kick your ass? Would we buy him as a superhero if he was built like a couch potato?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2022 13:04:20 GMT -5
I think to an extent it is important. I don't think it's at the top of the list in any way but it is important.
I'd argue it's less physique though and more look. Someone like Wyatt may not have the most impressive physique but his look has always been good. Same with someone like Kingston.
On the other hand you have someone like Brian Cage who is a physical specimen but is still missing something more important, whatever that is.
I also think your look is one of the easiest things for a wrestler to change. It's harder to pin down what makes a great wrestler, but it's far easier to pin down a great look. People still bring up when Rollins wore white that one title match for example, or Foley changing his look repeatedly but still making it work.
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Post by celtics543 on Jul 10, 2022 13:06:24 GMT -5
Look matters but it's really all about the story you're telling. You can tell a story with Brock that you can't with a guy like Adam Cole or Johnny Gargano. I think when it was something like Bret beating Diesel it made sense and told a great story. When it's Rey Mysterio beating Batista I'm just not sure I buy it. The size difference is just so great, at least Bret is a pretty big guy at 6'2" and 230.
Real sports have weight classes for a reason and I think wrestling should be a little more sensitive of the size differentials. I'm not going to go as far as to say it was the reason wrestling was hot in the 90's but that was the best time ever of making sure there was something on the card for everyone and guys were basically fighting people their own size. I like Rey but I like seeing Rey wrestle a guy like Juvi or Psychosis because it's believable. I don't like seeing Rey wrestle Big Show or Kevin Nash because that's unbelievable.
Today I can't accept Wardlow being presented as a monster and then losing to Adam Cole without a LOT of interference and shenanigans. It ruins the monster build. That's not to say Rey or Cole couldn't be world champion, they just need to work with the right people. Rey beating Kurt was fine. Cole beating someone like Gargano is fine.
Think back, if Hogan lost the title to Dangerous Danny Davis would you have believed that? Of course not, it was believable that Hulk would lose to Andre. It's a physical sport, I think the guys and girls should look the part. If you look like a schlub then why are you a threat? And that doesn't mean fat, Kevin Owens looks like he could beat someone up, as did Earthquake, Bigelow, Akeem, and all those guys. The issue to me is guys who are small, with no muscle, and aren't presented as having any special qualities.
All that said, Bret's my all time favorite, closely followed by HBK, Austin, and Bryan. So it's not so much about height but they have to look athletic. Wrestling has gotten smaller, Jericho looks like a bigger guy in AEW and he's like 5'10" and maybe 225 at this point. He was a really small guy back in the late 90's and early 2000's.
I'll echo what someone above me said. You aren't buying Jack Black as Captain America. You aren't going to see Jonah Hill star as Wolverine. Those guys are really great and they draw fans in but certain roles don't work for them. It's about the character they're playing and that they need to fit that character.
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Perd
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Perd on Jul 10, 2022 13:10:27 GMT -5
Y’all should’ve seen the size of the cinnamon roll I ate last night.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Jul 10, 2022 13:19:13 GMT -5
Not really. It's more about the character. Now the look can be a part of the character. If you're someone who wants to be Rick Rude and you want to be taken seriously, you probably should look like Rick Rude. If you're a working man badass, it probably helps to look like Dusty or Eddie Kingston. But I don't need someone to look shredded to be taken seriously as a competitor. Years of watching real combat sports has taught me that guys can be small or lack definition and still be incredible fighters.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jul 10, 2022 13:27:52 GMT -5
Don't give a shit about 'real fights', and atheltic bodies can take on a myriad of forms, which suits wrestling, where there's so many different styles and ways a wrestler can work. People shit on Adam Cole, but the man is a cardio machine and it's just oversimplification and body shaming to crap on him once you see him work and understand that he's telling the story with his size, not against it. Which is true anywhere; wrestling matches with big enough size disparities will work that into their story, and that's something you don't get from genuine combat sports, but which wrestling offers and offers well. To that end, I think there's something to be said for how MMA-style pro wrestling like GCW's Bloodsport shows are good and fun and unique things, but remain niche interest shows within indie wrestling. I'm not sure that a more realistic approach on the issue of weights and sizes really does anything to make wrestling better, it just inhibits your ability to tell stories.
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Post by Zombie Mod on Jul 10, 2022 13:29:31 GMT -5
depends, Brock isnt at his most sculpted physique wise but is still built like an angry grizzly bear looking to devour anything that gets in it's way. it's believable he could destroy 90% of the roster for shits and giggles. Ryback is/was a similar size to current Brock but more defined muscle wise but wasn't really shown to be as dangerous as Brock in the ring.
Daniel Bryan for example didnt look like he could do much damage in a straight up fist fight, but given his move set & knowledge he could happily remove a limb and beat you to death with it. but he was still better built than 90% of people I know.
hell... William Regal wasn't exactly built like a typical American style wrestler but you would expect him to be able to do some serious damage if he wanted to.
it's down to the presentation as much as physical build of a wrestler, wrestling is probably the only place where it makes sense to see a smaller built person take down a larger built person without help.
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J is Justice
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Post by J is Justice on Jul 10, 2022 13:31:21 GMT -5
I do care about looks but that's more than just physique, to me. I think AJ and Shinsuke have great looks, for example, even though AJ is small and Shinsuke's gangly af. Look also takes into account attire, hair, etc. So it's just a combination of things.
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Jul 10, 2022 13:36:28 GMT -5
It does. I don't think you need to look like Lex Luger or the Ultimate Warrior but I think you should at least look like an athlete and look like you are spending some time in the gym and are at least trying to look the part.
For example I'm totally fine with Daniel Bryan and not as fine with Adam Cole. Both are smaller guys under 6'0 tall. Cole is actually probably a little taller. However Bryan looks like an athlete and looks believable. Adam Cole has the build of your average fan. No muscle or definition what so ever. Like if I were to put on a pair of trunks and wrestling boots and just get thrown into a wrestling ring I wouldn't look much different then Adam Cole. About 5'9" and 165-175 pounds with a very ordinary physique.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 10, 2022 14:17:03 GMT -5
It's notable here that "looking like a bodybuilder" and "big" are being treated as synonyms. It's not surprising, because it's what the WWE has trained people to expect, but it is notable. It's just silly to think of Lex Luger or the Ultimate Warrior as physically intimidating; they look like Greek statues, which is impressive but far from scary. (this isn't to say there isn't a place for Greek statue bodies in wrestling, just they're not the same as people who look like they could beat you up)
Power guys are great in wrestling, of course, but the visual cues for power aren't always very reliable. Who are the strongest people in the WWE in recent memory? Cesaro, Cena, Big E? All of them have very impressive physiques, of course, but does, say, Cena's stand out all that much compared to everyone around him? If you had Cena, Reigns, Ziggler, and McIntyre in a lineup, do you really think people would reliably pick out Cena as the one who's freakishly strong?
This all has to get communicated in the ring, which is also the reason why it's absolutely fine for small people to beat big people. All wrestlers have kayfabe assets and weaknesses (the WWE is VERY BAD at giving them specific weaknesses, which is a pet peeve of mine, but most of wrestling is bad at it, too). Of course Adam Cole is on an even par with Mark Henry, because even though Henry is god-tier strong, Cole is god-tier resilient, as communicated by his selling and bumping and acting. Part of what's fun about wrestling is seeing these various combinations of assets and weaknesses all careen against one another.
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Post by celtics543 on Jul 10, 2022 14:26:59 GMT -5
I think we'd all like to believe that size and "the look" doesn't matter but look at the hottest periods in wrestling and the periods where it's cooled off.
Rock n' Wrestling: Huge roided up guys, Hogan, Warrior, Savage, etc.
Early 90's New Generation: Steroid trial took everyone off the juice. Ratings fell.
Late 90's Attitude Era: Guys were huge again. We can argue whether on the juice or not but I'd assume most all of them were.
2000's to today: Smaller guys are being pushed harder and the business is making more money but not necessarily more popular than those other two periods.
I like that they push smaller guys but it would be a lie to say that bigger guys don't draw better.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Jul 10, 2022 14:27:34 GMT -5
Sometimes? Like Big E's build is part of why I like him. I also remember being impressed with early Ezekiel Jackson partially because of his build (he lost that perfect look over time though iirc).
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