Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Jul 10, 2022 14:28:48 GMT -5
I think we'd all like to believe that size and "the look" doesn't matter but look at the hottest periods in wrestling and the periods where it's cooled off. Rock n' Wrestling: Huge roided up guys, Hogan, Warrior, Savage, etc. Early 90's New Generation: Steroid trial took everyone off the juice. Ratings fell. Late 90's Attitude Era: Guys were huge again. We can argue whether on the juice or not but I'd assume most all of them were. 2000's to today: Smaller guys are being pushed harder and the business is making more money but not necessarily more popular than those other two periods. I like that they push smaller guys but it would be a lie to say that bigger guys don't draw better. I have one very simple counterpoint: Daniel Bryan.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jul 10, 2022 14:33:25 GMT -5
I think we'd all like to believe that size and "the look" doesn't matter but look at the hottest periods in wrestling and the periods where it's cooled off. Rock n' Wrestling: Huge roided up guys, Hogan, Warrior, Savage, etc. Early 90's New Generation: Steroid trial took everyone off the juice. Ratings fell. Late 90's Attitude Era: Guys were huge again. We can argue whether on the juice or not but I'd assume most all of them were. 2000's to today: Smaller guys are being pushed harder and the business is making more money but not necessarily more popular than those other two periods. I like that they push smaller guys but it would be a lie to say that bigger guys don't draw better. Yep, that's what everyone credits with being why the Attitude Era was successful. Because people were big. if The Rock wasn't 6'5" there was nothing there for the people to latch onto, that's the exact thing everyone says is what did it. Also everyone's biggest complaint about the New Generation era: smaller guys was its biggest concern, which is why the gangbusters breakpoint for getting out of it was World Champion Diesel.
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Post by celtics543 on Jul 10, 2022 14:39:58 GMT -5
I think we'd all like to believe that size and "the look" doesn't matter but look at the hottest periods in wrestling and the periods where it's cooled off. Rock n' Wrestling: Huge roided up guys, Hogan, Warrior, Savage, etc. Early 90's New Generation: Steroid trial took everyone off the juice. Ratings fell. Late 90's Attitude Era: Guys were huge again. We can argue whether on the juice or not but I'd assume most all of them were. 2000's to today: Smaller guys are being pushed harder and the business is making more money but not necessarily more popular than those other two periods. I like that they push smaller guys but it would be a lie to say that bigger guys don't draw better. I have one very simple counterpoint: Daniel Bryan. What boom period were they in when Bryan was on top? I love Daniel Bryan, one of my favorites of all time but I'm talking about wrestling being main stream. It wasn't mainstream with Bryan on top.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jul 10, 2022 14:45:01 GMT -5
No, and I don't care about workrate either. I care about whether or not a wrestler can get over with a crowd. That's about it.
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Post by celtics543 on Jul 10, 2022 14:45:15 GMT -5
I think we'd all like to believe that size and "the look" doesn't matter but look at the hottest periods in wrestling and the periods where it's cooled off. Rock n' Wrestling: Huge roided up guys, Hogan, Warrior, Savage, etc. Early 90's New Generation: Steroid trial took everyone off the juice. Ratings fell. Late 90's Attitude Era: Guys were huge again. We can argue whether on the juice or not but I'd assume most all of them were. 2000's to today: Smaller guys are being pushed harder and the business is making more money but not necessarily more popular than those other two periods. I like that they push smaller guys but it would be a lie to say that bigger guys don't draw better. Yep, that's what everyone credits with being why the Attitude Era was successful. Because people were big. if The Rock wasn't 6'5" there was nothing there for the people to latch onto, that's the exact thing everyone says is what did it. Also everyone's biggest complaint about the New Generation era: smaller guys was its biggest concern, which is why the gangbusters breakpoint for getting out of it was World Champion Diesel. Make all the jokes you want but ratings don't lie. PPV buys don't lie. It's not entirely size-based and I"m fan of smaller guys too but it's no secret that bigger guys draw in the casual fans. It's why the tip top biggest stars of all time have been bigger guys, they bring in the casual fans. Hogan, Rock, Austin, Undertaker, Andre, etc. are all bigger guys who had great charisma. I guess the good storylines and biggest star power just happen to be when bigger guys are on top. Your casual fan looks at Adam Cole and says "I can take that guy" and changes the channel. They see Brock Lesnar and they stay to watch because he's built like a grizzly. Not that bigger guys are better, some suck hard, you mentioned Diesel. But would the ratings have been better with 123 Kid on top back then?
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jul 10, 2022 14:46:48 GMT -5
I think we'd all like to believe that size and "the look" doesn't matter but look at the hottest periods in wrestling and the periods where it's cooled off. Rock n' Wrestling: Huge roided up guys, Hogan, Warrior, Savage, etc. Early 90's New Generation: Steroid trial took everyone off the juice. Ratings fell. Late 90's Attitude Era: Guys were huge again. We can argue whether on the juice or not but I'd assume most all of them were. 2000's to today: Smaller guys are being pushed harder and the business is making more money but not necessarily more popular than those other two periods. I like that they push smaller guys but it would be a lie to say that bigger guys don't draw better. I have one very simple counterpoint: Daniel Bryan. I love Bryan, but I think it's a bit of a reach to say he compares with the popularity of the aforementioned guys.
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Toates Madhackrviper
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Post by Toates Madhackrviper on Jul 10, 2022 14:47:12 GMT -5
I have one very simple counterpoint: Daniel Bryan. What boom period were they in when Bryan was on top? I love Daniel Bryan, one of my favorites of all time but I'm talking about wrestling being main stream. It wasn't mainstream with Bryan on top. This is anecdotal I guess but at a summer camp I was working at a bunch of the kids were "Yes" chanting with the fingers and everything, so I do think the Yes movement was mainstreamish. At least with kids.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jul 10, 2022 14:49:28 GMT -5
Yep, that's what everyone credits with being why the Attitude Era was successful. Because people were big. if The Rock wasn't 6'5" there was nothing there for the people to latch onto, that's the exact thing everyone says is what did it. Also everyone's biggest complaint about the New Generation era: smaller guys was its biggest concern, which is why the gangbusters breakpoint for getting out of it was World Champion Diesel. Make all the jokes you want but ratings don't lie. PPV buys don't lie. It's not entirely size-based and I"m fan of smaller guys too but it's no secret that bigger guys draw in the casual fans. It's why the tip top biggest stars of all time have been bigger guys, they bring in the casual fans. Hogan, Rock, Austin, Undertaker, Andre, etc. are all bigger guys who had great charisma. I guess the good storylines and biggest star power just happen to be when bigger guys are on top. Your casual fan looks at Adam Cole and says "I can take that guy" and changes the channel. They see Brock Lesnar and they stay to watch because he's built like a grizzly. Not that bigger guys are better, some suck hard, you mentioned Diesel. But would the ratings have been better with 123 Kid on top back then? Eh, to me it's not so much about size,(although it does appear to help some) but whether or not a talent can connect with a crowd beyond being "very good wrestler." Cena(good or bad) and Austin were the guys because of how the crowd reacted to them, and it wasn't because they put on 5 star classics
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jul 10, 2022 14:50:01 GMT -5
What boom period were they in when Bryan was on top? I love Daniel Bryan, one of my favorites of all time but I'm talking about wrestling being main stream. It wasn't mainstream with Bryan on top. This is anecdotal I guess but at a summer camp I was working at a bunch of the kids were "Yes" chanting with the fingers and everything, so I do think the Yes movement was mainstreamish. At least with kids. yeah that's fair.
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Post by The Ichi on Jul 10, 2022 14:50:51 GMT -5
Nope. It's all about presentation, and physique is ironically a really small part of that.
The biggest stars were big dudes, yes, but if that's the reason why they succeeded than it would have been much easier to replicate that success. It's why for every Hogan there are 50 Lex Lugers.
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fw91
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Post by fw91 on Jul 10, 2022 14:53:03 GMT -5
Nope. It's all about presentation, and physique is ironically a really small part of that. The biggest stars were big dudes, yes, but if that's the reason why they succeeded than it would have been much easier to replicate that success. It's why for every Hogan there are 50 Lex Lugers. agreed, but to be fair to the other side of things, for every Daniel Bryan and CM Punk, there are 50 Ricochet's. All about if you traits that can hook a crowd.
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Post by The Ichi on Jul 10, 2022 14:54:20 GMT -5
Nope. It's all about presentation, and physique is ironically a really small part of that. The biggest stars were big dudes, yes, but if that's the reason why they succeeded than it would have been much easier to replicate that success. It's why for every Hogan there are 50 Lex Lugers. agreed, but to be fair to the other side of things, for every Daniel Bryan and CM Punk, there are 50 Ricochet's. All about if you traits that can hook a crowd. Exactly, Punk and Bryan could present themselves.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Jul 10, 2022 14:55:36 GMT -5
I think we'd all like to believe that size and "the look" doesn't matter but look at the hottest periods in wrestling and the periods where it's cooled off. Rock n' Wrestling: Huge roided up guys, Hogan, Warrior, Savage, etc. Early 90's New Generation: Steroid trial took everyone off the juice. Ratings fell. Late 90's Attitude Era: Guys were huge again. We can argue whether on the juice or not but I'd assume most all of them were. 2000's to today: Smaller guys are being pushed harder and the business is making more money but not necessarily more popular than those other two periods. I like that they push smaller guys but it would be a lie to say that bigger guys don't draw better. I think this is a bit of an oversimplification. Just as WWF became mainstream (which was more than just the talent although it was mostly Hogan being a once in a lifetime draw - it was Vince seeing a bigger picture), the NWA grew with the likes of Flair and Dusty. Hell, Flair has remained a huge mainstream star to this day for his character, not his size or his physique. Roddy Piper was a huge part of that era and compared to everyone else, he just looked like a fella. But a fella who could talk. The early 90s had plenty of giant dudes. They didn't draw. WCW brought in the big guys. They didn't draw. I don't think the late 90s boom came from size. It came from the nWo getting hot and Austin/Rock getting hot. And there were plenty of guys bigger than them. Austin was a regular looking guy his whole career. The difference came from his persona. They pushed tons of guys in the 2000s and Cena had a great physique but there were plenty of guys taller and bigger and more muscular. But he had a great personality and got over. I mean the story of the mid to late 2000s was talent being brought up for their looks and failing repeatedly. And that happened while they ignored tons of guys who they would eventually bring in to make stars. I think we're long past the time when there can be a larger than life star for WWE given how the industry is. But maybe if they brought in a young AJ Styles or Samoa Joe, it could've happened. Other draws during that era like Eddie and Rey were under 5'10 and while Eddie forced himself into being jacked, he got over long before that.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 10, 2022 15:00:05 GMT -5
Yep, that's what everyone credits with being why the Attitude Era was successful. Because people were big. if The Rock wasn't 6'5" there was nothing there for the people to latch onto, that's the exact thing everyone says is what did it. Also everyone's biggest complaint about the New Generation era: smaller guys was its biggest concern, which is why the gangbusters breakpoint for getting out of it was World Champion Diesel. Make all the jokes you want but ratings don't lie. PPV buys don't lie. It's not entirely size-based and I"m fan of smaller guys too but it's no secret that bigger guys draw in the casual fans. It's why the tip top biggest stars of all time have been bigger guys, they bring in the casual fans. Hogan, Rock, Austin, Undertaker, Andre, etc. are all bigger guys who had great charisma. But... the joke was that you were crediting the ratings to the wrong things, not that the attitude era had bad ratings. Nobody thinks of Steve Austin as particularly big, because that wasn't his character and because he was paired against even larger people (and Cena was billed as almost exactly the same height and weight, during the 2000s which you dismiss with a handwave). The Rock was popular because he was the most charismatic person who's ever been alive, not because of his size. The Attitude Era was popular because it tends to work out when you market to eight year-olds, then wait ten years and market to eighteen year-olds. In the 1980s, big beefcakes were hot because of Stallone and Schwarzenegger, and so that WAS a draw to the WWE. They have never been hot since.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jul 10, 2022 15:04:02 GMT -5
Yep, that's what everyone credits with being why the Attitude Era was successful. Because people were big. if The Rock wasn't 6'5" there was nothing there for the people to latch onto, that's the exact thing everyone says is what did it. Also everyone's biggest complaint about the New Generation era: smaller guys was its biggest concern, which is why the gangbusters breakpoint for getting out of it was World Champion Diesel. Make all the jokes you want but ratings don't lie. PPV buys don't lie. It's not entirely size-based and I"m fan of smaller guys too but it's no secret that bigger guys draw in the casual fans. It's why the tip top biggest stars of all time have been bigger guys, they bring in the casual fans. Hogan, Rock, Austin, Undertaker, Andre, etc. are all bigger guys who had great charisma. I guess the good storylines and biggest star power just happen to be when bigger guys are on top. Your casual fan looks at Adam Cole and says "I can take that guy" and changes the channel. They see Brock Lesnar and they stay to watch because he's built like a grizzly. Not that bigger guys are better, some suck hard, you mentioned Diesel. But would the ratings have been better with 123 Kid on top back then? You've just made up a guy. "Guy who sees Adam Cole, thinks he can beat him, and stops watching wrestling" is a guy you just made up. You're talking about hard data but then you just invented a guy. Rock & Wrestling and the Attitude Era were driven by a moment where the cultural zeitgeist intersected with the product, and the New Generation is marked as a time where TV was dogshit and out of touch with the world because it was still Vince trying to do the '80s when the early '90s were the early '90s. Smaller guys like Bret stayed on and drew the money that sustained the company while guys like Diesel absolutely bombed on top. And yeah no maybe 123 Kid on top wouldn't have drawn better ratings, but the ratings and buys say that people didn't want what Diesel was selling, and that's not because big guys don't draw, it's because size is a thoroughly ahistorical factor for the ebb and flow of wrestling's popularity in the '90s. And you can see that in the fact that the post-Attitude decline started before guys like The Rock had fallen off, when Brock was still there, when Cena (only an inch shorter than Austin but carrying the company with the casual fans) and Batista were about to take over, when Taker and Kane were still around and Triple H was more roid gut than man. People tuned out before smaller guys got their main event chances, and when the smaller guys like Rey did get those chances they were adored and big draws for it.
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Post by celtics543 on Jul 10, 2022 15:23:59 GMT -5
Make all the jokes you want but ratings don't lie. PPV buys don't lie. It's not entirely size-based and I"m fan of smaller guys too but it's no secret that bigger guys draw in the casual fans. It's why the tip top biggest stars of all time have been bigger guys, they bring in the casual fans. Hogan, Rock, Austin, Undertaker, Andre, etc. are all bigger guys who had great charisma. I guess the good storylines and biggest star power just happen to be when bigger guys are on top. Your casual fan looks at Adam Cole and says "I can take that guy" and changes the channel. They see Brock Lesnar and they stay to watch because he's built like a grizzly. Not that bigger guys are better, some suck hard, you mentioned Diesel. But would the ratings have been better with 123 Kid on top back then? You've just made up a guy. "Guy who sees Adam Cole, thinks he can beat him, and stops watching wrestling" is a guy you just made up. You're talking about hard data but then you just invented a guy. Rock & Wrestling and the Attitude Era were driven by a moment where the cultural zeitgeist intersected with the product, and the New Generation is marked as a time where TV was dogshit and out of touch with the world because it was still Vince trying to do the '80s when the early '90s were the early '90s. Smaller guys like Bret stayed on and drew the money that sustained the company while guys like Diesel absolutely bombed on top. And yeah no maybe 123 Kid on top wouldn't have drawn better ratings, but the ratings and buys say that people didn't want what Diesel was selling, and that's not because big guys don't draw, it's because size is a thoroughly ahistorical factor for the ebb and flow of wrestling's popularity in the '90s. And you can see that in the fact that the post-Attitude decline started before guys like The Rock had fallen off, when Brock was still there, when Cena (only an inch shorter than Austin but carrying the company with the casual fans) and Batista were about to take over, when Taker and Kane were still around and Triple H was more roid gut than man. People tuned out before smaller guys got their main event chances, and when the smaller guys like Rey did get those chances they were adored and big draws for it. Maybe our definition of big draw is different but Rey wasn't a big draw. Adored, sure by hardcore fans but he didn't draw new people in. I'm not saying all big guys are draws and no little guy can be I'm just saying I don't think it's a coincidence that the biggest draws in the history of the sport were all 6'2" or larger and 220 or larger. American wrestling has never had a small guy that was the leader of a period where wrestling was super hot. I'm not trying to be a dick about this. I like and have been entertained by smaller guys. I'm only 5'10" so I appreciate the Bryans and Jericho's of the world but the facts are that no guy under 6' has ever been on top while the business was on fire. I don't think it's a coincidence. You are correct, I did go into some hyperbole with the Adam Cole stuff. I'm a fan of Cole but I personally don't think it's super believable that he's going to beat some of the huge guys who are also presented as resilient and tough as nails. Look at it from another point of view. Kurt Angle was well built and a gold medalist. How am I supposed to believe Rey Mysterio beats him? How would you think Adam Cole beats a guy like Kurt. Neither are huge but Kurt is more talented in every way and is actually built like a legit athlete. That's where I think size matters. All other things equal, the bigger guy is just better. 6'5" Rock is better than 5'9" Rock. 6'2" Austin is better than 5'8" Austin. It just is what it is.
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Post by darbus alan on Jul 10, 2022 15:31:46 GMT -5
Body dysmorphia matters a hell of a lot more to me than physique and some chuds' unrealistic expectations of them.
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Post by The Ichi on Jul 10, 2022 15:31:54 GMT -5
Rey was absolutely a huge draw.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jul 10, 2022 15:34:12 GMT -5
You've just made up a guy. "Guy who sees Adam Cole, thinks he can beat him, and stops watching wrestling" is a guy you just made up. You're talking about hard data but then you just invented a guy. Rock & Wrestling and the Attitude Era were driven by a moment where the cultural zeitgeist intersected with the product, and the New Generation is marked as a time where TV was dogshit and out of touch with the world because it was still Vince trying to do the '80s when the early '90s were the early '90s. Smaller guys like Bret stayed on and drew the money that sustained the company while guys like Diesel absolutely bombed on top. And yeah no maybe 123 Kid on top wouldn't have drawn better ratings, but the ratings and buys say that people didn't want what Diesel was selling, and that's not because big guys don't draw, it's because size is a thoroughly ahistorical factor for the ebb and flow of wrestling's popularity in the '90s. And you can see that in the fact that the post-Attitude decline started before guys like The Rock had fallen off, when Brock was still there, when Cena (only an inch shorter than Austin but carrying the company with the casual fans) and Batista were about to take over, when Taker and Kane were still around and Triple H was more roid gut than man. People tuned out before smaller guys got their main event chances, and when the smaller guys like Rey did get those chances they were adored and big draws for it. Maybe our definition of big draw is different but Rey wasn't a big draw. Adored, sure by hardcore fans but he didn't draw new people in. I'm not saying all big guys are draws and no little guy can be I'm just saying I don't think it's a coincidence that the biggest draws in the history of the sport were all 6'2" or larger and 220 or larger. American wrestling has never had a small guy that was the leader of a period where wrestling was super hot. I'm just going to zoom in on this bit real quick because all the subjectivity of 'is X believable' is of no interest to me, that's not something that be argued. But this last bit can. Because Bruno Sammartino was 5'10". You aren't talking about the history of the sport, you're talking very specifically about only the highs of one company within the past forty years, and marking those complicated successes by the factor of 'guys big'.
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Post by darbus alan on Jul 10, 2022 15:45:53 GMT -5
Rey was absolutely a huge draw. Kids f***ing love Rey and he was a huge merch driver in his prime. Ratings, especially during WWE's "the brand is the real draw" era, are one of the least important ways to determine an individual's popularity.
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