|
Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jul 10, 2022 22:05:28 GMT -5
I'm just going to zoom in on this bit real quick because all the subjectivity of 'is X believable' is of no interest to me, that's not something that be argued. But this last bit can. Because Bruno Sammartino was 5'10". You aren't talking about the history of the sport, you're talking very specifically about only the highs of one company within the past forty years, and marking those complicated successes by the factor of 'guys big'. I'll give you Bruno but he was perhaps the most built 5'10" guy of all time. He could lift a house. Plus wrestling was different at that point. Guys were a little smaller in general. I would agree though, I'm talking about the modern era 1984-present. But that's an era stretching forty years. What was popular forty years ago, what was seen as the way to go in that period, shouldn't necessarily be looked at as the easy key to obvious, blatant success. If there was a time where a 5'10" guy could be the star for years, when the likes of Ric Flair and Harley Race are as tall as John Cena and were massive stars, then there's no reason to think size is the evergreen driving factor, let alone that taste can't change in fundamental ways. I will grant that size was important in the '80s under Vince's presentation, but even during that boom period, you had other territories and other big promotions doing business without megalithic steroid men and doing fine. But there's so much in the Attitude Era that had little to do with how big anyone was. But today, the top athletes aren't mega jacked dudes. Connor McGregor outdrew Brock Lesnar and the heaviest he ever fought at was 155, which is lighter than Rey Mysterio gets billed at. Casual fans turn out in droves to see him fight, and he's doing real fighting. Hell, Ronda broke more box offices than lots of heavyweight main eventers ever could. Actual combat sports are a great guide to the idea that maybe the appetite isn't really for big guys, but for something else.
|
|
|
Post by kingoftheindies on Jul 10, 2022 23:42:17 GMT -5
To an extent no. Honestly what bugged me more than anything is when it's clear a wrestler is either heavily into steroids or body building to the point that they look unhealthy (Test during his last run, Jinder back during his main event run, ect) outside of that unless it is made to be a big deal by people on tv I don't normally notice.
It's all about how someone is treated on tv IMO thay makes someone believable as a threat or a champion. If the commentators are going to treat someone like a joke when they talk why would the fans care about them?
|
|
Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 48,473
|
Post by Dub H on Jul 11, 2022 2:03:46 GMT -5
I mean to a point.
I dont mind someone being farily thing.
But if you look out of shape and you accentuate it? Like Kassius Ohno and Braden Walker with the belly and fat in the most unpealling way.
You can have any body type and make it work.I dont care if your gut is huge ,you can work around it.
Also a good body is always a plus,even if it doesnt make me think less of someone a good body always helps build your image.
|
|
Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 48,473
|
Post by Dub H on Jul 11, 2022 2:06:49 GMT -5
I think we'd all like to believe that size and "the look" doesn't matter but look at the hottest periods in wrestling and the periods where it's cooled off. Rock n' Wrestling: Huge roided up guys, Hogan, Warrior, Savage, etc. Early 90's New Generation: Steroid trial took everyone off the juice. Ratings fell. Late 90's Attitude Era: Guys were huge again. We can argue whether on the juice or not but I'd assume most all of them were. 2000's to today: Smaller guys are being pushed harder and the business is making more money but not necessarily more popular than those other two periods. I like that they push smaller guys but it would be a lie to say that bigger guys don't draw better. Yep, that's what everyone credits with being why the Attitude Era was successful. Because people were big. if The Rock wasn't 6'5" there was nothing there for the people to latch onto, that's the exact thing everyone says is what did it. Also everyone's biggest complaint about the New Generation era: smaller guys was its biggest concern, which is why the gangbusters breakpoint for getting out of it was World Champion Diesel. Also its completely unfair when its well know Vince wouldnt push smaller guys.You make a catch 22, yeh all stars of the era were big..because Vince only pushed big guys. Even guys like Mankind had to pay the price for not being big body builders when it came to pushes. Rey Mysterio? Biggest Mexican star and one of biggest merchandise seller ever? Never got a good push. CM Punk which had wrestling back on its grip? Always played undercard to John Cena even if outselling him. You can always pick the Brunos, The Shawn Michaels(He is fairly tall but not big by any way) Also while on topic of others sports: Floyd Mayweather
|
|
|
Post by Rudy Gobert Weather Machine on Jul 11, 2022 2:20:07 GMT -5
I wanna say no but during the Maximum Male Models segment I was literally standing behind my couch like HOLY f*** LOOK AT THAT WINGSPAN!!!! so maybe a lil bit
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 4:53:15 GMT -5
Nope
|
|
|
Post by The Thread Barbi on Jul 11, 2022 4:58:59 GMT -5
I'll give you Bruno but he was perhaps the most built 5'10" guy of all time. He could lift a house. Plus wrestling was different at that point. Guys were a little smaller in general. I would agree though, I'm talking about the modern era 1984-present. But that's an era stretching forty years. What was popular forty years ago, what was seen as the way to go in that period, shouldn't necessarily be looked at as the easy key to obvious, blatant success. If there was a time where a 5'10" guy could be the star for years, when the likes of Ric Flair and Harley Race are as tall as John Cena and were massive stars, then there's no reason to think size is the evergreen driving factor, let alone that taste can't change in fundamental ways. I will grant that size was important in the '80s under Vince's presentation, but even during that boom period, you had other territories and other big promotions doing business without megalithic steroid men and doing fine. But there's so much in the Attitude Era that had little to do with how big anyone was. But today, the top athletes aren't mega jacked dudes. Connor McGregor outdrew Brock Lesnar and the heaviest he ever fought at was 155, which is lighter than Rey Mysterio gets billed at. Casual fans turn out in droves to see him fight, and he's doing real fighting. Hell, Ronda broke more box offices than lots of heavyweight main eventers ever could. Actual combat sports are a great guide to the idea that maybe the appetite isn't really for big guys, but for something else. True combat sports don't really compare. In MMA, you'd never see Connor McGregor pitted against a super heavyweight like Brock Lesnar. Yet you'll see AJ Styles take on Brock Lesnar in WWE. Whereas Brock is built like a man-beast, both Connor and AJ are athletic and ripped, and look like they put hours in the gym, rather than hours eating chips. Real Olympic champion Kurt Angle was always athletic and ripped, even in real competition. Wrestling is equal parts aesthetics, workrate and promos. Historically workrate wrestlers are never as big draws as those that excel in aesthetics and promo.
|
|
|
Post by El Cokehead del Knife Fight on Jul 11, 2022 5:08:25 GMT -5
What is this dumb shit with people being obsessed over physique lately? The same bullshit is taking over twitter with E drones shitting on Eddie Kingston.
|
|
|
Post by An Dog On An Skateboard on Jul 11, 2022 5:45:01 GMT -5
Yep, that's what everyone credits with being why the Attitude Era was successful. Because people were big. if The Rock wasn't 6'5" there was nothing there for the people to latch onto, that's the exact thing everyone says is what did it. Also everyone's biggest complaint about the New Generation era: smaller guys was its biggest concern, which is why the gangbusters breakpoint for getting out of it was World Champion Diesel. Make all the jokes you want but ratings don't lie. PPV buys don't lie. It's not entirely size-based and I"m fan of smaller guys too but it's no secret that bigger guys draw in the casual fans. It's why the tip top biggest stars of all time have been bigger guys, they bring in the casual fans. Hogan, Rock, Austin, Undertaker, Andre, etc. are all bigger guys who had great charisma. I guess the good storylines and biggest star power just happen to be when bigger guys are on top. Your casual fan looks at Adam Cole and says "I can take that guy" and changes the channel. They see Brock Lesnar and they stay to watch because he's built like a grizzly. Not that bigger guys are better, some suck hard, you mentioned Diesel. But would the ratings have been better with 123 Kid on top back then? I think this is a bit of a false equivalence. I think you hit on why they were over, and it was because they were great characters, which is why other wrestlers with similar physiques didn't get as over.
And historically, a lot of the biggest draws weren't wrestlers with "a body", it's recency bias that makes people think it's always been the norm. A look at the biggest draws pre-1985 and you won't find all that many wrestlers who were either remarkably large or who had a body, and even post-1985 you still had wrestlers like Savage or Piper who were huge draws despite not being remarkably big compared to their contemporaries.
|
|
|
Post by celtics543 on Jul 11, 2022 6:37:45 GMT -5
Make all the jokes you want but ratings don't lie. PPV buys don't lie. It's not entirely size-based and I"m fan of smaller guys too but it's no secret that bigger guys draw in the casual fans. It's why the tip top biggest stars of all time have been bigger guys, they bring in the casual fans. Hogan, Rock, Austin, Undertaker, Andre, etc. are all bigger guys who had great charisma. I guess the good storylines and biggest star power just happen to be when bigger guys are on top. Your casual fan looks at Adam Cole and says "I can take that guy" and changes the channel. They see Brock Lesnar and they stay to watch because he's built like a grizzly. Not that bigger guys are better, some suck hard, you mentioned Diesel. But would the ratings have been better with 123 Kid on top back then? I think this is a bit of a false equivalence. I think you hit on why they were over, and it was because they were great characters, which is why other wrestlers with similar physiques didn't get as over.
And historically, a lot of the biggest draws weren't wrestlers with "a body", it's recency bias that makes people think it's always been the norm. A look at the biggest draws pre-1985 and you won't find all that many wrestlers who were either remarkably large or who had a body, and even post-1985 you still had wrestlers like Savage or Piper who were huge draws despite not being remarkably big compared to their contemporaries.
Savage wasn't tall but he was built like a brick house. Guy was as muscled up as anyone. Piper is a good call and was an excellent heel but he's also one of the top 0.001% of mic guys ever. I'm not saying you HAVE to be big, I'm saying it's easier when you're big. As for the arguments regarding McGregor, Mayweather, and Rhonda. They are draws but they also don't fight outside of their weight class. I believe Connor could beat any other man in his weight class, same with Mayweather or Rhonda but I don't believe that McGregor beats Brock or Mayweather beats Fury. It's just that if I have two people who have fairly equal training and skill level then the bigger person is going to win 99% of the time because they're stronger and have a better reach. It should be treated as a huge upset when a guy like Rey beats the Big Show but for years they've just made it the norm. Similarly to how no one enjoys Shane McMahon looking like an equal when he wrestles, he has no training or experience so he shouldn't be presented as an equal match for someone who is trained. I don't see Dana White's son (if he has one) jumping in the octagon with a trained pro and looking legit. I just want it to be believable, which is mostly from the story, but also from a how does this look standpoint. The guys you're all mentioning are mostly believable. Flair, Race, HBK, Bret, Bryan etc all seem believable because of how they've been built up. They also never really wrestled bigger guys and when they did they weren't presented as equals. Bret ropadoped Diesel. Flair and Race rarely wrestled people that were significantly larger. HBK and Bret were both bigger than we remember at least in terms of weight. Bryan was always presented as a master of submission. It worked for them. Rey made it work 99% of the time but the visual of 5'4" Rey Mysterio standing across from Batista just doesn't do it for me. Rey standing across from a big stiff or unknown, sure I can buy that perhaps but everything else equal size is a difference. Thinking it through as a little kid, I couldn't fathom anyone beating Andre because he was presented a certain way. That's why Hulk got over so huge at Wrestlemania 3. If Andre was putting over small guys left and right then that win at Wrestlemania 3 means nothing.
|
|
|
Post by peaches1 on Jul 11, 2022 6:54:22 GMT -5
It helps. Looks matter in wrestling, because size and build are simple, powerful ways to get across the point that someone is a threat.
|
|
|
Post by kingoftheindies on Jul 11, 2022 7:09:51 GMT -5
What is this dumb shit with people being obsessed over physique lately? The same bullshit is taking over twitter with E drones shitting on Eddie Kingston. Not saying this was the point of the op, but I think in the overall wrestling Fandom? Long story short, tribalism
|
|
|
Post by Mid-Carder on Jul 11, 2022 7:52:21 GMT -5
Ultimately, no. None of my favourites are favourites because of their physiques. As others have said, its the look that matters. But a look doesn't have to be muscular. It added to Warrior's appeal. It didn't add to Stone Cold Steve Austin's
|
|
|
Post by An Dog On An Skateboard on Jul 11, 2022 8:21:16 GMT -5
I think this is a bit of a false equivalence. I think you hit on why they were over, and it was because they were great characters, which is why other wrestlers with similar physiques didn't get as over.
And historically, a lot of the biggest draws weren't wrestlers with "a body", it's recency bias that makes people think it's always been the norm. A look at the biggest draws pre-1985 and you won't find all that many wrestlers who were either remarkably large or who had a body, and even post-1985 you still had wrestlers like Savage or Piper who were huge draws despite not being remarkably big compared to their contemporaries.
Savage wasn't tall but he was built like a brick house. Guy was as muscled up as anyone. Piper is a good call and was an excellent heel but he's also one of the top 0.001% of mic guys ever. I'm not saying you HAVE to be big, I'm saying it's easier when you're big. As for the arguments regarding McGregor, Mayweather, and Rhonda. They are draws but they also don't fight outside of their weight class. I believe Connor could beat any other man in his weight class, same with Mayweather or Rhonda but I don't believe that McGregor beats Brock or Mayweather beats Fury. It's just that if I have two people who have fairly equal training and skill level then the bigger person is going to win 99% of the time because they're stronger and have a better reach. It should be treated as a huge upset when a guy like Rey beats the Big Show but for years they've just made it the norm. Similarly to how no one enjoys Shane McMahon looking like an equal when he wrestles, he has no training or experience so he shouldn't be presented as an equal match for someone who is trained. I don't see Dana White's son (if he has one) jumping in the octagon with a trained pro and looking legit. I just want it to be believable, which is mostly from the story, but also from a how does this look standpoint. The guys you're all mentioning are mostly believable. Flair, Race, HBK, Bret, Bryan etc all seem believable because of how they've been built up. They also never really wrestled bigger guys and when they did they weren't presented as equals. Bret ropadoped Diesel. Flair and Race rarely wrestled people that were significantly larger. HBK and Bret were both bigger than we remember at least in terms of weight. Bryan was always presented as a master of submission. It worked for them. Rey made it work 99% of the time but the visual of 5'4" Rey Mysterio standing across from Batista just doesn't do it for me. Rey standing across from a big stiff or unknown, sure I can buy that perhaps but everything else equal size is a difference. Thinking it through as a little kid, I couldn't fathom anyone beating Andre because he was presented a certain way. That's why Hulk got over so huge at Wrestlemania 3. If Andre was putting over small guys left and right then that win at Wrestlemania 3 means nothing. Well, this is kind of what I'm getting at, Shane McMahon gets shat on because he's booked badly, the others are booked well so the size disparity between them and someone else isn't really important. And unless your size or physique is an integral part of your character, you'll probably get over without it if you're any good, and likewise if you haven't got anything else you won't get over.
I suppose to an extent we're viewing it differently because I've never been overly concerned by believability, I know it's pretend so I'm not really bothered if I'm reminded of that.
|
|
|
Post by polarbearpete on Jul 11, 2022 8:50:29 GMT -5
Someone’s look and presentation obviously matters a lot. A good physique will enhance that presentation 99% of the time. But it’s also not entirely necessary depending on the character - like Foley, Owens and Kingston don’t have great physiques but it fits their character and their presentation/look is still a big part of why they’re over.
I will say that someone looking scrawny is sometimes an issue in terms of believability in my eyes, but depending on how they work in the ring it can be fine. Like Rey makes it fine with the way he works (and he’s not scrawny anymore, but I mean more his WCW days). Riho when she was first in AEW wrestled in a way that it hurt believability but then when she returned later on her striking and the way she delivered moves seemed to have evolved for the better. Bliss sometimes had that issue where her strikes were sold as deadly shots when they looked anything but.
|
|
|
Post by King Devitt and the Woke Mob on Jul 11, 2022 9:30:24 GMT -5
To a degree yes.
But I also freely admit I'm a giant hypocrite when it comes to this.
Like, I think Kevin Owens, and Angelo Dawkins look awful. You could tell me they're actually truck drivers and I would believe you. Owens did get "in shape" for his match with Austin, but generally he looks like he puts zero time in at the gym/with his eating habits. But the kicker is both of those men could run circles around me in cardio in the ring.
But I'm a hypocrite because I see someone like Eddie Kingston, who is clearly carrying more 'flab' on him, and his look doesn't bother me one bit. I mean please keep the straps up mate, but other than that, no issues.
It makes zero sense, and for some reason it's where I land on the issue.
|
|
lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,978
|
Post by lucas_lee on Jul 11, 2022 9:33:29 GMT -5
Serious question. I know most people are gonna say "No, as long as they're entertaining and can go in the ring, etc" But I'll be honest. I have a soft spot for a bodybuilder powerhouse in wrestling. Guys like Brian Cage, Batista, Ryback, Ultimate Warrior, Lex Luger and others. There is something about the larger than life guys that make wrestling feel different and less... Fake, I guess. If we are being completely honest, watching a guy like Batista struggle with a guy like Adam Cole would be absolutely ridiculous to most people. In a real fight, it's clear the bigger guy would break the skinny guy with barely any muscle in half. But wrestling seems to have abandoned this mentality over the years, for better or good What do you think? Should the "Heavyweights" be all big jacked up guys and the midcarders be smaller? Or do you think it's fine watching smaller guys beat big guys? LOL that part of a fight is not true at all. Just because you're jacked and big doesn't mean you can fight. I've seen it in my boxing gym when I trained that the bigger and muscular you are, the slower you are. Plus I could care less what a wrestler looks like as long as they do their job competently. 70's-early 80's had guys who had the physiques of always drunk slightly racist uncles at BBQ s and they still were great.
|
|
lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,978
|
Post by lucas_lee on Jul 11, 2022 9:41:49 GMT -5
I'm just going to zoom in on this bit real quick because all the subjectivity of 'is X believable' is of no interest to me, that's not something that be argued. But this last bit can. Because Bruno Sammartino was 5'10". You aren't talking about the history of the sport, you're talking very specifically about only the highs of one company within the past forty years, and marking those complicated successes by the factor of 'guys big'. I'll give you Bruno but he was perhaps the most built 5'10" guy of all time. He could lift a house. Plus wrestling was different at that point. Guys were a little smaller in general. I would agree though, I'm talking about the modern era 1984-present. I firmly disagree with what you're selling. For every body guy like Hogan or Orndorff who was great and sold tickets. You had body guys like Ted Arci, Bill Kazmier, Ivan Putski, who couldn't draw flies to honey, due to lack of charisma. Plus who cares who can do what, its fake all this suspend your disbelief BS is peddled by old timers who use an out of date metric to back their points up. The fact that guys can still be standing after being punched in the face repeatedly should be the clue not to take wrestling body metrics too seriously.
|
|
mcstoklasa
Hank Scorpio
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 6,976
|
Post by mcstoklasa on Jul 11, 2022 9:41:53 GMT -5
Of course.
|
|
mcstoklasa
Hank Scorpio
Sigs/Avatars cannot exceed 1MB
Posts: 6,976
|
Post by mcstoklasa on Jul 11, 2022 9:43:03 GMT -5
When Ambrose was walking around like a skinny weed I was not impressed. I was even less impressed when he was supposed to go against Brock looking like that
|
|