The Ichi
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Post by The Ichi on Jul 11, 2022 9:54:52 GMT -5
When Ambrose was walking around like a skinny weed I was not impressed. I was even less impressed when he was supposed to go against Brock looking like that In what X Dimension is Ambrose/Moxley a "skinny weed"? Plus that Brock feud was all about Ambrose having to dig down deep into his old deathmatch bag of tricks and it still wasn't enough.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 11, 2022 10:03:21 GMT -5
When Ambrose was walking around like a skinny weed I was not impressed. I was even less impressed when he was supposed to go against Brock looking like that In what X Dimension is Ambrose/Moxley a "skinny weed"? Plus that Brock feud was all about Ambrose having to dig down deep into his old deathmatch bag of tricks and it still wasn't enough. Ambrose/Moxley has fluctuated a bit. When he returned from injury in I think 2018, he had noticeably gained what seemed like 20- 30 pounds of muscle.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jul 11, 2022 10:12:48 GMT -5
Just dipping into the whole "believably" thing, and the specific Rey v Batista example mentioned.
Do I believe in a straight up fight, Batista would squash Rey like a grape. Probably yes.
But is that how these things are booked? I mean, if they're booked well? Hell no.
Rey is weaker and smaller than Batista.
So he darts around the ring so Batista never gets his hands on him, uses his speed to dodge and counter and take every little advantage he's got to wear down the guy who, because he's huge, doesn't have the endurance, or Rey gets that 1 lucky shot that knocks him out.
It's a story literally thousands of years old that people get behind.
Any story is a good some if you book it well, any character can beat any other character if you write it well and have a performer capable of pulling it off.
For all "Hogan was this massive superhero", which he was, look at a lot of his feuds, they came down to "sneaky heel outsmarts him and cheats" or, and this is a big one, they're even bigger so he's the small one who gets overpowered. Bundy, Andre, Taker, The Giant house show runs with guys like Kamala.
Literally the poster child for big is best spent a huge chunk of time being the smaller guy.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 10:16:56 GMT -5
Physiques only matter to me if the way a wrestler looks and the style that wrestler uses are out of alignment. For example, I would never buy Adam Cole as a power wrestler, but I absolutely buy him as a dude with a ton of stamina who can outlast his opponents before getting an opportunistic win. Similarly I never bought Kevin Owens as a brutal monster heel in NXT who was routinely hospitalizing folks but I'm fine with him on the main roster as an asshole bully.
Real talk, I think a lot of this physique discourse is incredibly tedious. If it's not simple tribalism, it's trying to make a totally subjective opinion into an objective fact. Like people aren't satisfied just having opinions anymore - it's not enough to say "I dislike Wrestler X's look," instead it has to be "Wrestler X's look is scaring off the casual fans and is part of the reason wrestling isn't popular anymore."
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Push R Truth
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Post by Push R Truth on Jul 11, 2022 10:19:20 GMT -5
My favorite look/style for wrestlers was always what I called the Bowling Ball of Pain guy. Vader, BamBam, Otis, Big Daddy V.
Unfortunately I think that look kills a lot of dudes young.
So I guess I don't really care about physiques. Unless somebody seriously just looks like a lazy bum and it's not actually their gimmick.
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FinalGwen
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Post by FinalGwen on Jul 11, 2022 10:23:51 GMT -5
This David guy should hit the gym and get a clue, nobody'll ever believe him taking down Goliath, now there's a guy who'll draw money.
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Post by Can you afford to pay me, Gah on Jul 11, 2022 10:34:36 GMT -5
It doesn't for me as much it seems a lot of people tend to do. See all the Adam Cole stuff since he went to AEW as an example which clearly his shoulder problem was a real reason he could do weight training. When I look at a roster I like the variety of different sizes and styles. Some people have said they should "look" like they can kick someone's ass. I watched pro wrestling for so long I guess I never saw it that way because I was about the skill. I care about the promos, the in ring abilities to tell the story. The smaller guys can take down a bigger guy in a real fight if they are skilled enough to do it. A good smaller guy can tell a underdog story. Good example prime 123 Kid going against bigger guys. Its fun to see the smaller guy get thrown around like a rag doll but yet still fight back and get that upset win.
Now MEer again about ability. I get WWE guys tend to gave muscle mass way more than else where. But When you see Shawn Michaels go up against Taker, Diesel, and ext He made the matches look great. Again it was story telling he used. Sure there is such thing as small being to small. Like if Hornwoggle became WWE champion than I would been like no I can't believe that. But if someone is close to six feet, sure I can if booked right.
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Post by simplydurhamcalling on Jul 11, 2022 10:41:10 GMT -5
Yeah it matters to me, not necessarily that a guy needs to be 250lbs+ and ripped to shreds by any means. Kingston looks like he could beat the hell out of someone same for Owens and Foley before them. Bret Hart remains my favourite wrestler of all time, Bryan Danielson is top of the pile in terms of current wrestlers, neither are giants but both were athletic enough to allow you to buy into them working against pretty much anyone.
I'm not going to get into naming names but there's plenty of people out there in both WWE and AEW where I find myself unable to get into their matches as I just can't buy their offense due to their size.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jul 11, 2022 11:57:36 GMT -5
But that's an era stretching forty years. What was popular forty years ago, what was seen as the way to go in that period, shouldn't necessarily be looked at as the easy key to obvious, blatant success. If there was a time where a 5'10" guy could be the star for years, when the likes of Ric Flair and Harley Race are as tall as John Cena and were massive stars, then there's no reason to think size is the evergreen driving factor, let alone that taste can't change in fundamental ways. I will grant that size was important in the '80s under Vince's presentation, but even during that boom period, you had other territories and other big promotions doing business without megalithic steroid men and doing fine. But there's so much in the Attitude Era that had little to do with how big anyone was. But today, the top athletes aren't mega jacked dudes. Connor McGregor outdrew Brock Lesnar and the heaviest he ever fought at was 155, which is lighter than Rey Mysterio gets billed at. Casual fans turn out in droves to see him fight, and he's doing real fighting. Hell, Ronda broke more box offices than lots of heavyweight main eventers ever could. Actual combat sports are a great guide to the idea that maybe the appetite isn't really for big guys, but for something else. True combat sports don't really compare. In MMA, you'd never see Connor McGregor pitted against a super heavyweight like Brock Lesnar. Yet you'll see AJ Styles take on Brock Lesnar in WWE. Whereas Brock is built like a man-beast, both Connor and AJ are athletic and ripped, and look like they put hours in the gym, rather than hours eating chips. Real Olympic champion Kurt Angle was always athletic and ripped, even in real competition. Wrestling is equal parts aesthetics, workrate and promos. Historically workrate wrestlers are never as big draws as those that excel in aesthetics and promo. I'm not talking about the idea of big guys facing against little guys. I'm talking about the idea that big draws draw and are how you draw, which is what that whole reply chain is based on. Smaller guys can be huge box office pulls in combat sports, so why can't they be in wrestling? If anything, its ability to put on David and Goliath stories that can have happy endings is a massive boon to it.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jul 11, 2022 11:57:57 GMT -5
I think for me it depends on the person and the story being told.
I can get in to a big built hoss, I can get in to a tiny lucha, I can get behind a super heavyweight.
What I struggle with is when a guy wrestles in trunks and just looks 'normal' - like they are clearly aerobically very fit, but they just look like a typical body type. Like Kyle O'Reilly. Guy has no definition to his midriff, but to the point he almost looks out of shape despite clearly being in better shape than I'll ever be. I'm sure it's literally just his body type and not that he isn't doing enough crunches, but still.
Does that make sense?
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Post by BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps on Jul 11, 2022 12:05:05 GMT -5
As long as the wrestler’s look fits their character?
As long as they’re healthy and they’re a fun performer?
Hell no.
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Post by celtics543 on Jul 11, 2022 12:55:29 GMT -5
I'll give you Bruno but he was perhaps the most built 5'10" guy of all time. He could lift a house. Plus wrestling was different at that point. Guys were a little smaller in general. I would agree though, I'm talking about the modern era 1984-present. I firmly disagree with what you're selling. For every body guy like Hogan or Orndorff who was great and sold tickets. You had body guys like Ted Arci, Bill Kazmier, Ivan Putski, who couldn't draw flies to honey, due to lack of charisma. Plus who cares who can do what, its fake all this suspend your disbelief BS is peddled by old timers who use an out of date metric to back their points up. The fact that guys can still be standing after being punched in the face repeatedly should be the clue not to take wrestling body metrics too seriously. Sure, being big isn't an automatic success. But to turn your point around for every Rey Mysterio or Daniel Bryan there are a thousand small guys who never drew a dime. As you say, it's a fake sport so all you have is your look and charisma. Small guys can have a good look and get over, obviously. All I'm saying is that if you're a small guy you need to be able to work in the ring and put on 4 or 5 star matches. A guy who has a great look, like Hogan or Goldberg, can work a 2 star match or a 30 second squash and get more over. If body size didn't matter to getting over then no wrestler would ever take the juice. It wouldn't be worth it. There's a reason that a guy like Dynamite Kid felt he had to be on roids to get to the top. Flair, for as great as he was, always was concerned about looking good. You don't have to roided out but unless your character is perfect for your body type, like Dusty, then you need to look at least decent.
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Post by darbus alan on Jul 11, 2022 12:57:28 GMT -5
Just dipping into the whole "believably" thing, and the specific Rey v Batista example mentioned. Do I believe in a straight up fight, Batista would squash Rey like a grape. Probably yes. But is that how these things are booked? I mean, if they're booked well? Hell no. Rey is weaker and smaller than Batista. So he darts around the ring so Batista never gets his hands on him, uses his speed to dodge and counter and take every little advantage he's got to wear down the guy who, because he's huge, doesn't have the endurance, or Rey gets that 1 lucky shot that knocks him out. It's a story literally thousands of years old that people get behind. Any story is a good some if you book it well, any character can beat any other character if you write it well and have a performer capable of pulling it off. For all "Hogan was this massive superhero", which he was, look at a lot of his feuds, they came down to "sneaky heel outsmarts him and cheats" or, and this is a big one, they're even bigger so he's the small one who gets overpowered. Bundy, Andre, Taker, The Giant house show runs with guys like Kamala. Literally the poster child for big is best spent a huge chunk of time being the smaller guy. Yeah like Hogan in his prime was never this dominant, invincibile superhero. He got his ass kicked a lot, and his being one of the best sellers ever really enhanced his big comeback.
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Futureraven: Beelzebruv
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Spent half my life here, God help me
Posts: 15,468
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Jul 11, 2022 13:01:53 GMT -5
Just dipping into the whole "believably" thing, and the specific Rey v Batista example mentioned. Do I believe in a straight up fight, Batista would squash Rey like a grape. Probably yes. But is that how these things are booked? I mean, if they're booked well? Hell no. Rey is weaker and smaller than Batista. So he darts around the ring so Batista never gets his hands on him, uses his speed to dodge and counter and take every little advantage he's got to wear down the guy who, because he's huge, doesn't have the endurance, or Rey gets that 1 lucky shot that knocks him out. It's a story literally thousands of years old that people get behind. Any story is a good some if you book it well, any character can beat any other character if you write it well and have a performer capable of pulling it off. For all "Hogan was this massive superhero", which he was, look at a lot of his feuds, they came down to "sneaky heel outsmarts him and cheats" or, and this is a big one, they're even bigger so he's the small one who gets overpowered. Bundy, Andre, Taker, The Giant house show runs with guys like Kamala. Literally the poster child for big is best spent a huge chunk of time being the smaller guy. Yeah like Hogan in his prime was never this dominant, invincibile superhero. He got his ass kicked a lot, and his being one of the best sellers ever really enhanced his big comeback. First VHS I got as a kid was Survivor Series 89 and he makes ZEUS look inhuman, spends a lot of the match literally laying down on the apron, not just laying, sweating buckets, so blown up he's gone from orange to red, the guy looks like he needs a doctor. And that was for an actor, who he'd already had a feud with in the summer, it was the perfect time to big league the guy.
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
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Post by lucas_lee on Jul 11, 2022 13:01:58 GMT -5
I firmly disagree with what you're selling. For every body guy like Hogan or Orndorff who was great and sold tickets. You had body guys like Ted Arci, Bill Kazmier, Ivan Putski, who couldn't draw flies to honey, due to lack of charisma. Plus who cares who can do what, its fake all this suspend your disbelief BS is peddled by old timers who use an out of date metric to back their points up. The fact that guys can still be standing after being punched in the face repeatedly should be the clue not to take wrestling body metrics too seriously. Sure, being big isn't an automatic success. But to turn your point around for every Rey Mysterio or Daniel Bryan there are a thousand small guys who never drew a dime. As you say, it's a fake sport so all you have is your look and charisma. Small guys can have a good look and get over, obviously. All I'm saying is that if you're a small guy you need to be able to work in the ring and put on 4 or 5 star matches. A guy who has a great look, like Hogan or Goldberg, can work a 2 star match or a 30 second squash and get more over. If body size didn't matter to getting over then no wrestler would ever take the juice. It wouldn't be worth it. There's a reason that a guy like Dynamite Kid felt he had to be on roids to get to the top. Flair, for as great as he was, always was concerned about looking good. You don't have to roided out but unless your character is perfect for your body type, like Dusty, then you need to look at least decent. There are also bigger guys than them that were terrible draws too. There really isn't a metric for who draws and what draws. You really have to be in the right place right time. Hogan was a marginal draw in the WWWF until he did Rocky 3 and that helped skyrocket his career in the AWA. Guys like Taker went through a lot of gimmicks before he found his niche. Its not always being believable it also mostly has to do with right place, right time.
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Post by darbus alan on Jul 11, 2022 13:06:05 GMT -5
Someone brought up the Rock earlier and he had that same physique when he was the blue chipper that everyone hated. It was the ability to show that he has charisma coming out of the ass that made him one of the most popular wrestlers ever. Physique merely served his overall image but it was only a small part of the whole.
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Jul 11, 2022 13:13:14 GMT -5
This David guy should hit the gym and get a clue, nobody'll ever believe him taking down Goliath, now there's a guy who'll draw money. If David could convincingly kill Goliath he wouldn't have had to kill him twice.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Jul 11, 2022 13:17:45 GMT -5
This David guy should hit the gym and get a clue, nobody'll ever believe him taking down Goliath, now there's a guy who'll draw money. If David could convincingly kill Goliath he wouldn't have had to kill him twice. “Beat me without the slingshot, coward”
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 13:50:14 GMT -5
I was going to say that I couldn't possibly care less about physiques, but I do find myself of the opinion that big, bodybuilder hosses like Brian Cage are typically very boring. To use your example, if I saw a picture of Adam Cole and a picture of Batista without knowing anything about either guy, I could definitely say with much confidence that I would rather see an Adam Cole match. What is this dumb shit with people being obsessed over physique lately? The same bullshit is taking over twitter with E drones shitting on Eddie Kingston. And I wonder how many of them were fans of Mick Foley during the Attitude era?
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pinja
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Post by pinja on Jul 11, 2022 13:59:46 GMT -5
A smaller fighter winning against a bigger one is only questionable before the fight happens, not after it. That's the difference to bad wrestling. If fans find it questionable that a smaller wrestler won against a bigger one, that's more often on the wrestlers and/or the booking. In a wrestling world where big men do moonsaults and headscissors, it's harder for the rest to counter that. Some wrestlers are so small, you borderline(?) never see them suplex or slam an opponent. They have to rely on strikes and submissions and maybe strategy. But big men strike and apply submissions and strategize, too. What's left for the smaller ones? Everyone in wrestling is supposed to be able to fight. If I see a skillful MMA fighter against an untrained bodybuilder, it's obvious who the fighter is just by comparing stances, striking and whatnot. That's not true for wrestling.
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