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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 11, 2022 13:59:46 GMT -5
I think it's an overplayed issue, and most people here have mentioned why it's not terribly important: so long as your look matches your presentation, character, in-ring style, etc., it really shouldn't be much of anything to get overly concerned about. Guys and gals should spend time in the gym because they need to build muscle to protect themselves from certain kinds of injuries (e.g. stronger backs and necks are VERY important in pro wrestling) and because they need to build and maintain an insane level of cardio (five minutes in the ring can feel like death, even for otherwise super athletic people). The rest is all window dressing and just has to suit the character being presented and the stories being told.
Like, Kazuchika Okada is a VERY strong guy, but nobody's going to look at him and think he's huge into weightlifting or bodybuilding...yet the dude is a key reason why NJPW's been able to draw +40,000 people to the Tokyo Dome again. I know that's Japan and maybe the expectations aren't always the same as in the States, but yeah, Tanahashi might have spend much of his career with a chiseled torso, but Okada and Naito aren't jacked to the gills or anything and they draw big. I also get that Okada's like 6'2 and probably around 230, so people would probably put him more in the Bret Hart category based on those numbers alone, but again the point is more about perception.
There's also a key here that really needs to be understood when people talk about "believability" in pro wrestling; you can't ever lose sight of the fact that pro wrestling is based on the concept of "freestyle wrestling", where weight limits aren't really important and where there might be rules, but it's nowhere near as structured as a fight in a more organized form of combat sports. It's why you're allowed to go outside the ring for awhile, or jump off the ropes, or do other crazy shit that nobody in real life would ever do in a real fight.
Given that it's all freestyle, there's really no reason why someone smaller couldn't beat someone bigger; you just have to tell the right story to get across what makes it work. Ric Flair beat Vader at Starrcade '93 in part because he did something he always failed at over the years: he leapt off the top rope, multiple times in fact, and actually connected with moves to take the big man off his feet. Orange Cassidy recently beat the rather muscular Ethan Page in a really good Dynamite match built around Page being the bigger man, but Orange being elusive/capable of escaping Page's bigger moves, and ultimately being able to outmaneuver him and eventually floor him with a finishing strike, his superman punch.
Now, if you wanted to book Page and Cassidy in a match with specialized rules that called for the kind of structure you see in a regular UFC fight? I might have a harder time buying the outcome. But in a freestyle fight where you can make use of a huge canvas space, ring ropes, turnbuckles, ring posts, and outside areas? Anything can basically happen, you just need to build a story that makes it all make sense.
On the subject of Adam Cole, I've said this before, but people who get on him for his physique clearly can't tell the guy never skips a leg day, good Lord he's built in his lower body.
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Jul 11, 2022 14:05:43 GMT -5
Honestly when people complain about Adam Cole's believably I find it more unusual no one seems to single out his moveset. It's kind of just an awkward unfocused mess of whatever he thinks looks cool, climaxing in his shitty finisher where due to the way he delivers the knee it looks less like he builds up momentum running at them and more like he just awkwardly trips into them. I have a way harder time investing in Cole's matches because it feels like he's more focused on doing cool shit than on actually hurting his opponent than I do due to how he looks.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jul 11, 2022 15:56:00 GMT -5
Honestly when people complain about Adam Cole's believably I find it more unusual no one seems to single out his moveset. It's kind of just an awkward unfocused mess of whatever he thinks looks cool, climaxing in his shitty finisher where due to the way he delivers the knee it looks less like he builds up momentum running at them and more like he just awkwardly trips into them. I have a way harder time investing in Cole's matches because it feels like he's more focused on doing cool shit than on actually hurting his opponent than I do due to how he looks. I mean aside from the Panama Sunrise (which should either be a finisher or retired), I don't see an issue with Coles move list. But your overall point I do agree with.
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Hypnosis
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Post by Hypnosis on Jul 11, 2022 16:31:05 GMT -5
Honestly when people complain about Adam Cole's believably I find it more unusual no one seems to single out his moveset. It's kind of just an awkward unfocused mess of whatever he thinks looks cool, climaxing in his shitty finisher where due to the way he delivers the knee it looks less like he builds up momentum running at them and more like he just awkwardly trips into them. I have a way harder time investing in Cole's matches because it feels like he's more focused on doing cool shit than on actually hurting his opponent than I do due to how he looks. I mean aside from the Panama Sunrise (which should either be a finisher or retired), I don't see an issue with Coles move list. But your overall point I do agree with. I think Cole should leave the superkicks to the Young Bucks, since that's an established part of their characters anyway.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 19:39:17 GMT -5
I think a lot of people hit the nail on the head in this thread.
Physiques and body types don't necessarily bother me... UNLESS it looks like the wrestler is completely avoiding the gym. Then he falls into the trap of "looking like a fan" and that's hard to look past for me.
If I am watching wrestling and I'm seeing a bunch of guys who look like my neighbour, then all of a sudden it doesn't feel like I'm watching something special. It feels like I'm watching a bunch of pretenders who can't live up to the guys of yesteryear.
I feel like most casual fans notice this first too. And once they notice that, they won't even give a chance to the performer.
This is why wrestling isn't mainstream anymore. There's no "Wow factor". When you saw The Ultimate Warrior or Hulk Hogan, it felt like you saw something special that you couldn't find anywhere else.
Now? Most wrestlers act like fans. They have no gimmick or character. They don't even have unique ring attires most of the time... They just cosplay as superheroes and other wrestlers. The only wrestler who truly "got it" in recent years has been Bray Wyatt in my opinion. When you saw The Fiend come out, it was special. But they managed to f*** that up too.
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Jul 11, 2022 19:54:09 GMT -5
I think a lot of people hit the nail on the head in this thread. Physiques and body types don't necessarily bother me... UNLESS it looks like the wrestler is completely avoiding the gym. Then he falls into the trap of "looking like a fan" and that's hard to look past for me. If I am watching wrestling and I'm seeing a bunch of guys who look like my neighbour, then all of a sudden it doesn't feel like I'm watching something special. It feels like I'm watching a bunch of pretenders who can't live up to the guys of yesteryear. I feel like most casual fans notice this first too. And once they notice that, they won't even give a chance to the performer. This is why wrestling isn't mainstream anymore. There's no "Wow factor". When you saw The Ultimate Warrior or Hulk Hogan, it felt like you saw something special that you couldn't find anywhere else. Now? Most wrestlers act like fans. They have no gimmick or character. They don't even have unique ring attires most of the time... They just cosplay as superheroes and other wrestlers. The only wrestler who truly "got it" in recent years has been Bray Wyatt in my opinion. When you saw The Fiend come out, it was special. But they managed to f*** that up too. If anyone looks at someone like Adam Page and sees a person who's completely avoiding the gym, I would have a lot of questions. It's all well and good to like spectacle, but the thing you're not acknowledging is that you have a particular, narrow definition of "spectacle" which isn't invalid or anything, but you're probably overgeneralizing with it.
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Post by Dub H on Jul 11, 2022 20:33:38 GMT -5
I think a lot of people hit the nail on the head in this thread. Physiques and body types don't necessarily bother me... UNLESS it looks like the wrestler is completely avoiding the gym. Then he falls into the trap of "looking like a fan" and that's hard to look past for me. If I am watching wrestling and I'm seeing a bunch of guys who look like my neighbour, then all of a sudden it doesn't feel like I'm watching something special. It feels like I'm watching a bunch of pretenders who can't live up to the guys of yesteryear. I feel like most casual fans notice this first too. And once they notice that, they won't even give a chance to the performer. This is why wrestling isn't mainstream anymore. There's no "Wow factor". When you saw The Ultimate Warrior or Hulk Hogan, it felt like you saw something special that you couldn't find anywhere else. Now? Most wrestlers act like fans. They have no gimmick or character. They don't even have unique ring attires most of the time... They just cosplay as superheroes and other wrestlers. The only wrestler who truly "got it" in recent years has been Bray Wyatt in my opinion. When you saw The Fiend come out, it was special. But they managed to f*** that up too. Wrestling isnt main stram anymore because WWE killed the other companies and spend 15+ years giving shit. Not that I disagree wrestling needs those special attractions kinda of guys. I would argue Mr Brodie Lee had managed to hit the perfect balance of Wow Factor and realistic character
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Post by Limity (BLM) on Jul 11, 2022 20:56:46 GMT -5
I think a lot of people hit the nail on the head in this thread. Physiques and body types don't necessarily bother me... UNLESS it looks like the wrestler is completely avoiding the gym. Then he falls into the trap of "looking like a fan" and that's hard to look past for me. If I am watching wrestling and I'm seeing a bunch of guys who look like my neighbour, then all of a sudden it doesn't feel like I'm watching something special. It feels like I'm watching a bunch of pretenders who can't live up to the guys of yesteryear. I feel like most casual fans notice this first too. And once they notice that, they won't even give a chance to the performer. This is why wrestling isn't mainstream anymore. There's no "Wow factor". When you saw The Ultimate Warrior or Hulk Hogan, it felt like you saw something special that you couldn't find anywhere else. Now? Most wrestlers act like fans. They have no gimmick or character. They don't even have unique ring attires most of the time... They just cosplay as superheroes and other wrestlers. The only wrestler who truly "got it" in recent years has been Bray Wyatt in my opinion. When you saw The Fiend come out, it was special. But they managed to f*** that up too. Wrestling isnt main stram anymore because WWE killed the other companies and spend 15+ years giving shit. Not that I disagree wrestling needs those special attractions kinda of guys. I would argue Mr Brodie Lee had managed to hit the perfect balance of Wow Factor and realistic character Wrestling dips in and out of the mainstream, but has there ever been a time it's been consistently a mainstream product?
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Post by Lizuka #BLM on Jul 11, 2022 21:10:56 GMT -5
Wrestling isn't mainstream anymore in large part because the media conditions aren't really in a position where it ever can be again. Media rapidly became more decentralized even before the rise of streaming and nowadays even other shows often struggle to have meaningful longterm impact because the zeitgeist doesn't really stay nailed down on any one point nearly as much anymore. There's kind of a reason why while Breaking Bad is still talked about endlessly today you pretty much never just happen to bump into people talking about Better Call Saul in the wild.
If anything I think the true way forward for wrestling is to try to wrap itself in nerd culture and get in on that. Fans of shit like livestreaming and D&D and anime are a lot more likely to get invested in wrestling's manner of storytelling longterm than general audiences are.
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Post by mcstoklasa on Jul 11, 2022 21:26:12 GMT -5
When Ambrose was walking around like a skinny weed I was not impressed. I was even less impressed when he was supposed to go against Brock looking like that In what X Dimension is Ambrose/Moxley a "skinny weed"? Plus that Brock feud was all about Ambrose having to dig down deep into his old deathmatch bag of tricks and it still wasn't enough. In early 2016 Ambrose was indeed a skinny weed
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Post by mcstoklasa on Jul 11, 2022 21:27:32 GMT -5
I think a lot of people hit the nail on the head in this thread. Physiques and body types don't necessarily bother me... UNLESS it looks like the wrestler is completely avoiding the gym. Then he falls into the trap of "looking like a fan" and that's hard to look past for me. If I am watching wrestling and I'm seeing a bunch of guys who look like my neighbour, then all of a sudden it doesn't feel like I'm watching something special. It feels like I'm watching a bunch of pretenders who can't live up to the guys of yesteryear. I feel like most casual fans notice this first too. And once they notice that, they won't even give a chance to the performer. This is why wrestling isn't mainstream anymore. There's no "Wow factor". When you saw The Ultimate Warrior or Hulk Hogan, it felt like you saw something special that you couldn't find anywhere else. Now? Most wrestlers act like fans. They have no gimmick or character. They don't even have unique ring attires most of the time... They just cosplay as superheroes and other wrestlers. The only wrestler who truly "got it" in recent years has been Bray Wyatt in my opinion. When you saw The Fiend come out, it was special. But they managed to f*** that up too. A billion per cent agreed Because of who he was in the same era with (guys like the massive triple H) and wasn't totally shredded and was kind of an everyman blue collar character, some people probably think Stone colds physique wasn't that big but he was actually huge compared to any normal guy in the crowd.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2022 22:09:30 GMT -5
Sometimes? Like Big E's build is part of why I like him. I also remember being impressed with early Ezekiel Jackson partially because of his build (he lost that perfect look over time though iirc). Unfortunately Walter/Gunther lost that same mystique to me by seemingly getting in better shape as well.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Jul 11, 2022 22:13:34 GMT -5
I think a lot of people hit the nail on the head in this thread. Physiques and body types don't necessarily bother me... UNLESS it looks like the wrestler is completely avoiding the gym. Then he falls into the trap of "looking like a fan" and that's hard to look past for me. If I am watching wrestling and I'm seeing a bunch of guys who look like my neighbour, then all of a sudden it doesn't feel like I'm watching something special. It feels like I'm watching a bunch of pretenders who can't live up to the guys of yesteryear. I feel like most casual fans notice this first too. And once they notice that, they won't even give a chance to the performer.This is why wrestling isn't mainstream anymore. There's no "Wow factor". When you saw The Ultimate Warrior or Hulk Hogan, it felt like you saw something special that you couldn't find anywhere else. Now? Most wrestlers act like fans. They have no gimmick or character. They don't even have unique ring attires most of the time... They just cosplay as superheroes and other wrestlers. The only wrestler who truly "got it" in recent years has been Bray Wyatt in my opinion. When you saw The Fiend come out, it was special. But they managed to f*** that up too. Putting words in peoples mouths about what they may or may not care about when it comes to this issue is shitty, and you've done this multiple times about this topic, and it never gets any better. Putting this on why wrestling isn't "Mainstream" anymore is so stupid, and what "Mainstream" is anymore is lost in translation. RAW, AEW, and Smackdown are number one in cable most weeks the days they're on, we're waiting for Attitude Era numbers to return again, and with how the cable model is structured now? I hate to break it to you, it will never happen. The NEW BOOM PERIOD is a meme. But it doesn't necessarily mean wrestling is dead, or can't grow and find a fandom, as AEW has and has done well with it. But blaming that on some hypothetical take is just ridiculous to me. A lot of wrestlers in the common era have great physique and put on spectacular matches, obviously not in the way that appeals to you, but certainly in the way where it's appealing to plenty of other people. It feels like you're constantly looking for some vindication that wrestling is lesser than it used to be and it needs to be acknowledged as fact, but the fact is... wrestling's doing well, and a lot of people sure aren't getting turned off by physiques that I've seen, especially given guys like Eddie Kingston are some of the most over wrestlers of this current era, and for damn good reason.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jul 11, 2022 22:36:49 GMT -5
As I said before. Kids f***ing love Rey and he was a huge merch driver in his prime. Ratings, especially during WWE's "the brand is the real draw" era, are one of the least important ways to determine an individual's popularity. Using Ratings today... especially comparing them to either boom period without the historical context of ratings and how both the systems setting them as well as the culture at large changed is being purposely intellectually dishonest. Ratings today will never be like they were in the 80's or 90's there are so many different avenues of entertainment today, between streaming, DVR, youtube, not to mention the fact that there are hundreds of different channels that are on 24 hours a day... that nothing is getting the ratings they used to. Also there is no mainstream anymore, trying to corner "THE MAINSTREAM" when again WWE/AEW are already normally the number one thing watched on their nights should kinda prove they are as mainstream as they are going to be. Entertainment is so fractured and different than it was even 10 years ago that trying to using old metrics to talk about it is literally impossible because it ignores how media is consumed nowadays. Youtube and Twitch people get hundreds of thousands of views a day have MILLIONS of subscribers ... and most likely wouldn't get recognized on the street in most cases. You can find your corner niche and just keep coasting without ever needing to broaden your horizons anymore because there's just SO much out there... and chasing "THE CASUAL FAN!" is dumb if you are doing it at the expense of the people that are actually watching... since... there's a good chance that casual fan doesn't actually exist.
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Post by Dub H on Jul 11, 2022 22:37:57 GMT -5
In what X Dimension is Ambrose/Moxley a "skinny weed"? Plus that Brock feud was all about Ambrose having to dig down deep into his old deathmatch bag of tricks and it still wasn't enough. In early 2016 Ambrose was indeed a skinny weed He ius definitely not as big as he is nowdays but that is not Skinny Weed,a most he skipped working out his forearm compared to the rest of this body
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Post by Dub H on Jul 11, 2022 22:51:23 GMT -5
I think it's an overplayed issue, and most people here have mentioned why it's not terribly important: so long as your look matches your presentation, character, in-ring style, etc., it really shouldn't be much of anything to get overly concerned about. Guys and gals should spend time in the gym because they need to build muscle to protect themselves from certain kinds of injuries (e.g. stronger backs and necks are VERY important in pro wrestling) and because they need to build and maintain an insane level of cardio (five minutes in the ring can feel like death, even for otherwise super athletic people). The rest is all window dressing and just has to suit the character being presented and the stories being told.Like, Kazuchika Okada is a VERY strong guy, but nobody's going to look at him and think he's huge into weightlifting or bodybuilding...yet the dude is a key reason why NJPW's been able to draw +40,000 people to the Tokyo Dome again. I know that's Japan and maybe the expectations aren't always the same as in the States, but yeah, Tanahashi might have spend much of his career with a chiseled torso, but Okada and Naito aren't jacked to the gills or anything and they draw big. I also get that Okada's like 6'2 and probably around 230, so people would probably put him more in the Bret Hart category based on those numbers alone, but again the point is more about perception. There's also a key here that really needs to be understood when people talk about "believability" in pro wrestling; you can't ever lose sight of the fact that pro wrestling is based on the concept of "freestyle wrestling", where weight limits aren't really important and where there might be rules, but it's nowhere near as structured as a fight in a more organized form of combat sports. It's why you're allowed to go outside the ring for awhile, or jump off the ropes, or do other crazy shit that nobody in real life would ever do in a real fight.Given that it's all freestyle, there's really no reason why someone smaller couldn't beat someone bigger; you just have to tell the right story to get across what makes it work. Ric Flair beat Vader at Starrcade '93 in part because he did something he always failed at over the years: he leapt off the top rope, multiple times in fact, and actually connected with moves to take the big man off his feet. Orange Cassidy recently beat the rather muscular Ethan Page in a really good Dynamite match built around Page being the bigger man, but Orange being elusive/capable of escaping Page's bigger moves, and ultimately being able to outmaneuver him and eventually floor him with a finishing strike, his superman punch. Now, if you wanted to book Page and Cassidy in a match with specialized rules that called for the kind of structure you see in a regular UFC fight? I might have a harder time buying the outcome. But in a freestyle fight where you can make use of a huge canvas space, ring ropes, turnbuckles, ring posts, and outside areas? Anything can basically happen, you just need to build a story that makes it all make sense. On the subject of Adam Cole, I've said this before, but people who get on him for his physique clearly can't tell the guy never skips a leg day, good Lord he's built in his lower body. On this particular subject its also important to point out that too much muscle becomes easier to injury. Not only a bigger size muscle takes more from your body it becomes tigther and harder to contract when taking impact and spread the shock,specially without some sort of fat. You want muscles only up to a size. Hell look at most of the MMA fighers.You wont see a Hulk Hogan or Ultimater Warrior Body type
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Post by J. Hova on Jul 11, 2022 23:31:30 GMT -5
I agree with most people here that there needs to be a balance. You can't give the "Masterpiece" gimmick to someone who looks like they are the clerk at Auto Zone. A general rule of thumb is that outside of managers, authority figures, etc., no one should look like someone you could take as they look like Larry from down the street. I'm not saying I want every wrestler to look like Batista or the Ultimate Warrior (or god forbid wrestler like either of them), but outside of someone like Yokozuna, they should look like they at least have seen a gym at some point in the past month.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jul 12, 2022 1:51:19 GMT -5
The body dysmorphia will never die
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Post by ThankGodForSidJustice on Jul 12, 2022 2:11:54 GMT -5
In early 2016 Ambrose was indeed a skinny weed He ius definitely not as big as he is nowdays but that is not Skinny Weed,a most he skipped working out his forearm compared to the rest of this body Those are from more later in the year aren't they? I'm guessing more around the summer when he was champion since he's holding the belt. I do remember in the early months of the year Ambrose getting pretty thin. I distinctly remember in the Rumble I think he got his shirt ripped off and being taken aback by how thin he looked. However he started to thicken back up and got back to looking more like his old self. Like in those two pictures he looks great. Fit and still lean but with some muscle too where he doesn't look overly thin or scrawny.
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Post by simplydurhamcalling on Jul 12, 2022 3:21:38 GMT -5
He ius definitely not as big as he is nowdays but that is not Skinny Weed,a most he skipped working out his forearm compared to the rest of this body Those are from more later in the year aren't they? I'm guessing more around the summer when he was champion since he's holding the belt. I do remember in the early months of the year Ambrose getting pretty thin. I distinctly remember in the Rumble I think he got his shirt ripped off and being taken aback by how thin he looked. However he started to thicken back up and got back to looking more like his old self. Like in those two pictures he looks great. Fit and still lean but with some muscle too where he doesn't look overly thin or scrawny. They're from the Summer yeah, you can see the edge of the Summerslam logo in one. Ambrose from early 2016 compared to Ambrose post injury return in 2018 was night and day, he looked like a killer when he came back for that last run.
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