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Post by hashtagdaley/JudasDay on Jul 17, 2022 10:26:54 GMT -5
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Post by Savage Gambino on Jul 17, 2022 17:37:21 GMT -5
I’ve always felt that pro wrestling is one of those mediums, especially with WWE and now TNA/Impact was for a time, that felt like going backwards was the way to get audiences back rather than trying to change with the times. Even here, we’re having all these “AE was popular, they should go back to that” discussions that, I’m sorry, we’ve been doing this for 20 years now. How have we not moved on from what was a 3-4 year period of history? Heck, the Ruthless Aggression era at times was the embodiment of the “BRING BACK THE ATTITUDE ERA” crowd which didn’t quite work because, guess what, we already saw that and those people aren’t coming back now that there wasn’t another company to switch to during the ad breaks. It was HHH in a Kane mask having sex with a corpse or nothing. Like, at least with Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, they tried new concepts or animation styles or characterizations and whilst they didn’t click with audience or work as intended, they didn’t go “Here’s the 80s Turtles again but in 2003!” (Yes, I know the “crossover” happened but that barely counts, especially when 2012 Turtles did a better job with it) So glad to see the Ruthless Aggression Era get at least a few namedrops. Far too often, these ratings conversations are boiled down to Attitude vs PG/Reality era, when the actual Attitude Era was relatively short. I feel like we could learn a lot from RA because it can be best summarized as "what happened the last time WWE tried to recreate the Attitude Era". I also think we should look to the Hogan/Bischoff era of TNA Wrestling, because all the breasts, blood, and profanity cannot remedy shitty writing. Charlotte vs Alexa would still be Charlotte vs Alexa even if Alexa got to call Charlotte a "glass bottom boat loving bitch" before losing in the most anticlimactic way possible to keep Charlotte Flair strong. A ratings change, in and of itself, means very little in the broad strokes. They were already cursing, they were already being more ribald, and they were already being outwritten by actual cartoons written for actual children. The best case scenario is writers feel like they have more flexibility and actually give us something new (if it's not shot down by Vince first), but what this most likely means is that they'll say "here's some ass" and keep writing the same show they've been writing.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jul 18, 2022 4:51:33 GMT -5
So glad to see the Ruthless Aggression Era get at least a few namedrops. Far too often, these ratings conversations are boiled down to Attitude vs PG/Reality era, when the actual Attitude Era was relatively short. I feel like we could learn a lot from RA because it can be best summarized as "what happened the last time WWE tried to recreate the Attitude Era". Yeah, like...Dawn Marie killed Torrie Wilson's real life Dad with sex, Billy Gunn and Jamie Noble settled a feud involving Torrie Wilson with what was essentially an orgy, HLA, the Katie Vick storyline, Racism winning at WrestleMania, I'm probably forgetting stuff but in between the actual wrestling, there was utter nonsense hoping to get the audience that was watching in 1998 when those people were likely graduating university by then and getting jobs. And it barely did a damn thing. Like, I'm not saying if John Cena didn't get as big as he did, the company would be dead but they damn sure wouldn't be the billion dollar juggernaut they were now (which is why some of his treatment in the last few years annoyed me, dude saved your company almost single handed and you have him job to the Undertaker in a minute? F*** right off, man). And to add to this, you know what caused the downward trend ratings wise? It wasn't John Cena being on top, it was The Authority and heels needing to win every single time that drove people away and they didn't remotely try to salvage it until it was too late. The charts are out there saying this.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Jul 18, 2022 9:21:20 GMT -5
I mean, this day and age with internet access being near-universal, how 'shocking' can you really even be? You could probably look up right now someone putting an electric eel up their ass for god's sake.
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MiLB Fan
Fry's dog Seymour
Posts: 20,542
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Post by MiLB Fan on Jul 18, 2022 9:24:50 GMT -5
FWIW, my Sling TV guide and the USA Network website still lists a TV-PG rating for Raw right now.
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
the Financially Responsible Man
Brawl For All
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Post by thecrusherwi on Jul 18, 2022 9:30:38 GMT -5
I really don't think much will come of this, but if they book the shows a bit more like the WWF from 1984-87 I think it would be fine. That was a family friendly show, but they pushed the line quite a bit more with the promos and violence than they did from 1988-96 or in the modern PG Era and it was one of their best combinations of commercial success and mainstream popularity they've ever achieved. Granted the WWE of 2022 doesn't have anyone that could be in that Hulk Hogan slot, which admittedly was a huge part of the success of that Era.
And by push the line, I don't mean in the same ways, as some of that 80s stuff certainly hasn't aged well, but more in the sense that they weren't so worried about the reaction to things. They let heels say and do offensive things because they were despicable people we were supposed to hate. And the babyfaces were friendly, but they had an edge. If you wronged Hulk Hogan, he was going to get even with you, even if he had break a few rules. I hope this change allows the company to maybe take a few more chances. Don't overtly try to be edgy, but don't worry as much that you might cross a line if you have an idea that warrants it.
But I do think cherry picking the best and worst of the Attitude Era and PG Era to argue one over the other is a waste of time. Both had their fair share of crap that I was embarrassed to admit I watched.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Jul 18, 2022 9:55:01 GMT -5
But I do think cherry picking the best and worst of the Attitude Era and PG Era to argue one over the other is a waste of time. Both had their fair share of crap that I was embarrassed to admit I watched. It’s not really cherry picking as much as taking away the idea that it was the reason why one era failed and another succeeded. Wrestling was cool in the late 90s and less cool during the early 00s. One era everything you do works like it's the greatest thing and the other, everything you do might as well be seen as the most uncool thing to ever grace the Earth. You can look at it subjectively about what holds up and what doesn’t but that’s just how it is.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Jul 18, 2022 9:58:19 GMT -5
So glad to see the Ruthless Aggression Era get at least a few namedrops. Far too often, these ratings conversations are boiled down to Attitude vs PG/Reality era, when the actual Attitude Era was relatively short. I feel like we could learn a lot from RA because it can be best summarized as "what happened the last time WWE tried to recreate the Attitude Era". Yeah, like...Dawn Marie killed Torrie Wilson's real life Dad with sex, Billy Gunn and Jamie Noble settled a feud involving Torrie Wilson with what was essentially an orgy, HLA, the Katie Vick storyline, Racism winning at WrestleMania, I'm probably forgetting stuff but in between the actual wrestling, there was utter nonsense hoping to get the audience that was watching in 1998 when those people were likely graduating university by then and getting jobs. And it barely did a damn thing. Like, I'm not saying if John Cena didn't get as big as he did, the company would be dead but they damn sure wouldn't be the billion dollar juggernaut they were now (which is why some of his treatment in the last few years annoyed me, dude saved your company almost single handed and you have him job to the Undertaker in a minute? F*** right off, man). And to add to this, you know what caused the downward trend ratings wise? It wasn't John Cena being on top, it was The Authority and heels needing to win every single time that drove people away and they didn't remotely try to salvage it until it was too late. The charts are out there saying this. I've been rewatching a lot of 2005 WWE. Even on PG SmackDown, a lot of the elements of the Attitude Era are still very much there. Storylines involving sex, racism, treating women like sex objects, etc. The change really between the Attitude Era and Ruthless Aggression era in many ways was just a loss in popularity and a changing of the guard talent wise. But the way John Cena insulted his opponents was incredibly similar to the Rock. Just as Sable went out there in a bikini in a weekly basis, they trotted out women all the time for that including in the Diva Search. Not a lot changed.
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Magnus the Magnificent
King Koopa
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I could write a book about what you don't know!
Posts: 12,634
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Post by Magnus the Magnificent on Jul 18, 2022 12:02:28 GMT -5
1991 was PG, right? That year had attempted murder, alive burial, man-on-woman violence, venomous snakebites galore, fireballs, etc, etc...
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,816
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Post by cjh on Jul 18, 2022 12:14:46 GMT -5
1991 was PG, right? That year had attempted murder, alive burial, man-on-woman violence, venomous snakebites galore, fireballs, etc, etc... 1991 shows would have had no rating at all. Ratings for television shows weren't officially introduced until 1997.
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Post by jivesoulbrah on Jul 18, 2022 14:26:42 GMT -5
2003 was PG-14 and that year was arguably as bad as todays product.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2022 0:28:20 GMT -5
I have to wonder if Raw randomly opening with Titus and him mentioning that they do not do politics and religion (lie) was a subtle jab at all these reports...Then again it could have very well just been strange PR due to Vince's situation.
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Post by dreidemy on Jul 19, 2022 3:46:21 GMT -5
I have to wonder if Raw randomly opening with Titus and him mentioning that they do not do politics and religion (lie) was a subtle jab at all these reports...Then again it could have very well just been strange PR due to Vince's situation. I'm thinking that a WSJ bomb or something like that is about to drop this wwek
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Jul 19, 2022 4:02:49 GMT -5
Yeah, like...Dawn Marie killed Torrie Wilson's real life Dad with sex, Billy Gunn and Jamie Noble settled a feud involving Torrie Wilson with what was essentially an orgy, HLA, the Katie Vick storyline, Racism winning at WrestleMania, I'm probably forgetting stuff but in between the actual wrestling, there was utter nonsense hoping to get the audience that was watching in 1998 when those people were likely graduating university by then and getting jobs. And it barely did a damn thing. Like, I'm not saying if John Cena didn't get as big as he did, the company would be dead but they damn sure wouldn't be the billion dollar juggernaut they were now (which is why some of his treatment in the last few years annoyed me, dude saved your company almost single handed and you have him job to the Undertaker in a minute? F*** right off, man). And to add to this, you know what caused the downward trend ratings wise? It wasn't John Cena being on top, it was The Authority and heels needing to win every single time that drove people away and they didn't remotely try to salvage it until it was too late. The charts are out there saying this. I've been rewatching a lot of 2005 WWE. Even on PG SmackDown, a lot of the elements of the Attitude Era are still very much there. Storylines involving sex, racism, treating women like sex objects, etc. The change really between the Attitude Era and Ruthless Aggression era in many ways was just a loss in popularity and a changing of the guard talent wise. But the way John Cena insulted his opponents was incredibly similar to the Rock. Just as Sable went out there in a bikini in a weekly basis, they trotted out women all the time for that including in the Diva Search. Not a lot changed. This is a big part of why I roll my eyes at the "WWE isn't popular anymore because (X)" crowd who think a return to the Attitude Era is a good idea. They spent years on it, and they hit their decline before they dropped that trash. WWE declined in popularity because the late '90s passed and they didn't evolve. Lots of people didn't want to watch that kind of stuff anymore. Some did, but found themselves better suited watching Joe Rogan make people eat bugs on Fear Factor. Other people got really into MMA, and fittingly you bring up 2005, the year that The Ultimate Fighter aired and pushed the UFC into a big public limelight that helped it pivot away from the Just Bleed audience to find a more respectable mainstream following as a real combat sport. Others got sucked in by reality TV like Survivor and had no time for a scripted show full of trashy weirdos when they could watch real life trashy weirdos get bit by scorpions. 9/11 happened. Tastes changed. People moved on. WWE remained trying to chase that magic for years, and eventually toned it down entirely because it was no longer working and the boom era fans simply didn't come back.
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Post by A Platypus Rave is Correct on Jul 19, 2022 13:15:37 GMT -5
I've been rewatching a lot of 2005 WWE. Even on PG SmackDown, a lot of the elements of the Attitude Era are still very much there. Storylines involving sex, racism, treating women like sex objects, etc. The change really between the Attitude Era and Ruthless Aggression era in many ways was just a loss in popularity and a changing of the guard talent wise. But the way John Cena insulted his opponents was incredibly similar to the Rock. Just as Sable went out there in a bikini in a weekly basis, they trotted out women all the time for that including in the Diva Search. Not a lot changed. This is a big part of why I roll my eyes at the "WWE isn't popular anymore because (X)" crowd who think a return to the Attitude Era is a good idea. They spent years on it, and they hit their decline before they dropped that trash. WWE declined in popularity because the late '90s passed and they didn't evolve. Lots of people didn't want to watch that kind of stuff anymore. Some did, but found themselves better suited watching Joe Rogan make people eat bugs on Fear Factor. Other people got really into MMA, and fittingly you bring up 2005, the year that The Ultimate Fighter aired and pushed the UFC into a big public limelight that helped it pivot away from the Just Bleed audience to find a more respectable mainstream following as a real combat sport. Others got sucked in by reality TV like Survivor and had no time for a scripted show full of trashy weirdos when they could watch real life trashy weirdos get bit by scorpions. 9/11 happened. Tastes changed. People moved on. WWE remained trying to chase that magic for years, and eventually toned it down entirely because it was no longer working and the boom era fans simply didn't come back. Yeah, the attitude era was the zeitgeist of the time for a VERY short period of time. the XTREME late 90's from like 97-99... it's part of Russo's booking has failed literally everywhere else he's been (besides the incosistent story telling... and well worked shoots and... etc... ) The car crash trash TV Era which is all he was ever really good at is so specifically of that time. He's caught in perpetually thinking it's 1997... (Like Cornette constantly books perpetually thinking it's 1987 >_>)
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Post by doinkmark on Jul 19, 2022 13:35:35 GMT -5
Business-wise it makes sense. Hook the kids on wrestling when they're young, age the product with them as they become young adults with income and new interests, and hope they stay fans for life due to the product familiarity. It's worked before. The TV standards have also changed. You can do more with adult programming now. WWE can also blame continued failure on the rating change if they want.
The problem is, I don't trust modern WWE to get this right. Cole will remind us every two minutes that this is Vintage Attitude Era! There will be forced swearing in all promos like it's the edgiest thing in the world rathee than making it a character-specific thing. Add to that the fact that Legends from that era are dead, retired or working elsewhere. Add to that the rise of the internet and edgier content at one's fingertips 24/7. I think it's too little, too late.
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Post by polarbearpete on Jul 19, 2022 13:36:28 GMT -5
So do we think this is actually happening?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2022 18:11:28 GMT -5
If they keep booking Raw like they have been over the last 3 weeks, it ain't going to matter.
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bob
Backup Wench
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Post by bob on Jul 22, 2022 14:36:34 GMT -5
I don't agree with much of anything Cornette says about current wrestling but his take on this is pretty much spot on, save the shots at AEW he had to take
there's a clip on in YouTube channel
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MiLB Fan
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Post by MiLB Fan on Aug 25, 2022 14:30:28 GMT -5
Update from PWInsider: Raw and Smackdown are keeping their current TV ratings.
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