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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Sept 22, 2022 23:20:41 GMT -5
I mentioned this in the huge thread, but there was some podcast where a man and woman were discussing AEW, and they were talking about how TK keeps trying to play to Cornette-infused REAL WRESTLING FANS with long title reigns and playing down comedy and stuff like that. And then the woman was talking about her friends, who are mostly women and fairly casual about wrestling, and what they thought about the CM Punk kerfluffle. She was like, "Oh, they're just mad the Best Friends had two chances to win the trios titles and lost both times."
I don't mean to blow this anecdote into a huge deal, but it does occur to me that this OC situation might actually reflect a big tension in AEW's booking, and sooner or later they're just going to have to choose: Are they looking to be unassailable in the eyes of hardcore serious fans, or are they willing to be loose and silly and light? In other words: are they aiming to soak up Cornette people, or are they actually trying to build their audience among casuals, many of whom are women?
To me, it's pretty darn obvious which is the correct choice. But we're seeing right now you can't really pull off both. Because this right here is exactly what happens. You have OC pushed to title matches, but he loses all of them. And it makes no one happy.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Sept 23, 2022 0:06:32 GMT -5
I mentioned this in the huge thread, but there was some podcast where a man and woman were discussing AEW, and they were talking about how TK keeps trying to play to Cornette-infused REAL WRESTLING FANS with long title reigns and playing down comedy and stuff like that. And then the woman was talking about her friends, who are mostly women and fairly casual about wrestling, and what they thought about the CM Punk kerfluffle. She was like, "Oh, they're just mad the Best Friends had two chances to win the trios titles and lost both times." I don't mean to blow this anecdote into a huge deal, but it does occur to me that this OC situation might actually reflect a big tension in AEW's booking, and sooner or later they're just going to have to choose: Are they looking to be unassailable in the eyes of hardcore serious fans, or are they willing to be loose and silly and light? In other words: are they aiming to soak up Cornette people, or are they actually trying to build their audience among casuals, many of whom are women? To me, it's pretty darn obvious which is the correct choice. But we're seeing right now you can't really pull off both. Because this right here is exactly what happens. You have OC pushed to title matches, but he loses all of them. And it makes no one happy. I mean, the women I watch the show with can't get enough of Pac and Fenix, so I have a hard time generalizing the Best Friends point even though I agree with everything else, especially the degree to which Khan will stick to Meltzer-defined booking wisdom even when it is blatantly a bad choice (COUGH Owen Hart tournament). |
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,661
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Post by Fade on Sept 23, 2022 3:12:19 GMT -5
I mentioned this in the huge thread, but there was some podcast where a man and woman were discussing AEW, and they were talking about how TK keeps trying to play to Cornette-infused REAL WRESTLING FANS with long title reigns and playing down comedy and stuff like that. And then the woman was talking about her friends, who are mostly women and fairly casual about wrestling, and what they thought about the CM Punk kerfluffle. She was like, "Oh, they're just mad the Best Friends had two chances to win the trios titles and lost both times." I don't mean to blow this anecdote into a huge deal, but it does occur to me that this OC situation might actually reflect a big tension in AEW's booking, and sooner or later they're just going to have to choose: Are they looking to be unassailable in the eyes of hardcore serious fans, or are they willing to be loose and silly and light? In other words: are they aiming to soak up Cornette people, or are they actually trying to build their audience among casuals, many of whom are women? To me, it's pretty darn obvious which is the correct choice. But we're seeing right now you can't really pull off both. Because this right here is exactly what happens. You have OC pushed to title matches, but he loses all of them. And it makes no one happy. I think the first year and two AEW was really good at catering towards mainstream and the hardcore. Something happened in the last year where the focus shifted towards hardcores. I tooted about this quite a bit..about catering to all demos, not just your hardcore fans. Right now, they’re having a lot of business and financial success. Reaching out and extending towards the hip hop community is a good example of broadening your reach. Do it with all demographics. Cater towards women, cater towards kids, different nationalities, the hardcores and even if “the casual fan” is a myth, try to reach people who wouldn’t consider watching wrestling. Expanding your product is the way to do that. The MCU is a great example. They honored the source material and comic fans but they made their product accessible to everyone. AEW just needs to find that magic formula. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2022 3:17:29 GMT -5
I mentioned this in the huge thread, but there was some podcast where a man and woman were discussing AEW, and they were talking about how TK keeps trying to play to Cornette-infused REAL WRESTLING FANS with long title reigns and playing down comedy and stuff like that. And then the woman was talking about her friends, who are mostly women and fairly casual about wrestling, and what they thought about the CM Punk kerfluffle. She was like, "Oh, they're just mad the Best Friends had two chances to win the trios titles and lost both times." I don't mean to blow this anecdote into a huge deal, but it does occur to me that this OC situation might actually reflect a big tension in AEW's booking, and sooner or later they're just going to have to choose: Are they looking to be unassailable in the eyes of hardcore serious fans, or are they willing to be loose and silly and light? In other words: are they aiming to soak up Cornette people, or are they actually trying to build their audience among casuals, many of whom are women? To me, it's pretty darn obvious which is the correct choice. But we're seeing right now you can't really pull off both. Because this right here is exactly what happens. You have OC pushed to title matches, but he loses all of them. And it makes no one happy. definitely something to think about here. i'm definitely a huge fan of best friends/oc but it could be said that to the casuals, OC is about as good as someone you're gonna get to pull people in. funny, great look, can quite obviously go.. but so far, no dice |
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Sept 23, 2022 3:17:47 GMT -5
I mentioned this in the huge thread, but there was some podcast where a man and woman were discussing AEW, and they were talking about how TK keeps trying to play to Cornette-infused REAL WRESTLING FANS with long title reigns and playing down comedy and stuff like that. And then the woman was talking about her friends, who are mostly women and fairly casual about wrestling, and what they thought about the CM Punk kerfluffle. She was like, "Oh, they're just mad the Best Friends had two chances to win the trios titles and lost both times." I don't mean to blow this anecdote into a huge deal, but it does occur to me that this OC situation might actually reflect a big tension in AEW's booking, and sooner or later they're just going to have to choose: Are they looking to be unassailable in the eyes of hardcore serious fans, or are they willing to be loose and silly and light? In other words: are they aiming to soak up Cornette people, or are they actually trying to build their audience among casuals, many of whom are women? To me, it's pretty darn obvious which is the correct choice. But we're seeing right now you can't really pull off both. Because this right here is exactly what happens. You have OC pushed to title matches, but he loses all of them. And it makes no one happy. I mean, the women I watch the show with can't get enough of Pac and Fenix, so I have a hard time generalizing the Best Friends point even though I agree with everything else, especially the degree to which Khan will stick to Meltzer-defined booking wisdom even when it is blatantly a bad choice (COUGH Owen Hart tournament). Oh, Fenix especially is exactly what I'm talking about. The relationship between the Lucha Bros is a big part of their whole deal. Penta being a sadistic asshole works because at the end of the day he's looking out for his little bro, who in turn excels when it matters most. Even more than comedy and uniqueness (which are important too of course), what clicks about people like this and the Best Friends is the way they seem to actually like each other. They're not solely defined by wanting to Be The Toughest And Best. They're shown cooperating and getting along, not just competing. I think this is huge for casual fans (of any gender), who would just be watching MMA if they wanted nothing but seeing who can win fights. Like, yes, I love a goofy character, and I absolutely maintain a wrestling show that takes itself even SLIGHTLY too seriously is pretty difficult for a new, casual fan to get into. But the really important thing is positive relationships between the characters. Those are what make anything matter. So Pac winning isn't in and of itself a problem; it's that OC has fabulous matches week in and week out, but there's an insultingly obvious ceiling they've placed over him which makes zero sense unless the bookers have some bullshit need to be "taken seriously." I speculated like a year ago that TK was stuck in a mindset where a small subset of intensely passionate (and by coincidence awful, boring, and misogynist) fans were the Real Wrestling Fans whose opinions matter more than everyone else's, because they're more legit somehow. Nothing has really changed my assessment, here. He's driven by other things too, which explains why OC even has a job at all. But christ, I'd almost prefer he just rip off the band-aid at this point, so I can know this show isn't for me and stop watching. |
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 7,095
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Post by lucas_lee on Sept 23, 2022 5:04:16 GMT -5
Not denying his talent, the guy has had bangers with multiple talent. But I would never put any gold on him outside of the Trios titles and even that's pushing it. Strapping him up with singles gold is a mockery to said gold and devalues it. He's not a guy that should be going over top talent, this is why he has barely won a match since his feud with Jericho. It doesn't devalue any of the gold or mock any of the gold when the guy has match in and match out proven he can hand with the best talent in the world and isn't a joke. He's also won a ton of matches since his feud with Jericho, he's won 70 AEW matches and they haven't all been against pushovers This rhetoric is poisonous to wrestling and I seriously can't stand it. If you think live crowds and viewers would stop tuning in or cry foul because Orange won a belt, I think that's ridiculous. The only people who would care are the assholes with tennis rackets, and I'm glad not to be one of them. I agree with you a hundred percent. Even if you don't like OC hes over as hell and whenever he wins a title there's gonna ve a big pop. |
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 7,095
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Post by lucas_lee on Sept 23, 2022 5:08:14 GMT -5
I understand what you’re arguing to a certain extent, I just think pro wrestling has long since moved past physical attributes being a determinative factor in how heavily pushed a wrestler should be. If that were the case, Nick Comoroto and Satnam Singh should have every title in AEW. Did you hate Rey Mysterio’s main event runs in his prime, too? Honestly, as much as I love the dude, there aren’t many wrestlers who don’t look like they could physically kill Bryan Danielson. I did kind of hate it actually. He was much too small for me at the time and I was a huge Angle fan. Beating Orton and Angle in a Triple Threat kind of softened it though, as multi-man matches are usually chaotic and anyone can pick up the win at any time. 1v1 winning the title from Angle or Orton would have been far worse. Bryan is different though because he's billed as the Best wrestler in the world and is also part of the BCC, a club built on fighting and violence. Imagine a real life Fight Club scenario in which you had some body builder as the final boss. I'd go with Bryan over OC every time to take down the beast lol. Ah I see you're one of those wrestling fans. I really dislike the theyre too small arguement, its not too realistic arguement, when the whole "sport" is fake. Not knocking your opinion but that take bothers me and it probably played a role in the stagnation of the American wrestling scene till 1997. |
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Post by Harry The Arrow was Wrong! on Sept 23, 2022 8:03:16 GMT -5
Admittedly I was deflated when Pac won, and I'm a huge Pac fan, but if this leads to a rematch with OC winning the belt then I'll be happy with it. I'd be a lot more concerned if Pac didn't cheat but since he did, I think there is a good chance Cassidy is winning that belt soon. At least I hope there is.
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kimrey
Bubba Ho-Tep
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Post by kimrey on Sept 23, 2022 8:49:19 GMT -5
Admittedly I was deflated when Pac won, and I'm a huge Pac fan, but if this leads to a rematch with OC winning the belt then I'll be happy with it. I'd be a lot more concerned if Pac didn't cheat but since he did, I think there is a good chance Cassidy is winning that belt soon. At least I hope there is. I was there at Grand Slam and for some reason I really hyped myself up thinking he was actually going to do it. We even saw him at the meet and greet right before the show and he took a picture of our sign we had made for him. Going into that match I was so positive and excited. Then he lost. Again. I was completely deflated and honestly had a hard time caring about anything else on that show. He is my main reason for even watching wrestling and going to these events. I’m so tired of getting my hopes up with these big matches. I truly WANT to believe they’re going to do a rematch and he’ll win it, but I’ve been crushed so many times. I wouldn’t be surprised if they just move on from it. I will say that they are in Philadelphia next week and despite him being from “wherever” he does actually live there and he’s been on all of the promotional material for this show, right in front. It would be nice to see him get a good follow up story there. So I do hope they have something planned. |
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clifford
King Koopa
Shingo Takagi stan
Posts: 10,692
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Post by clifford on Sept 23, 2022 10:37:04 GMT -5
Honestly a few days removed from the match I'm kind of glad they didn't pull the trigger on Wednesday. The crowd was really deflated for this match after the tag title match. It took Pac selling like he's been shot twice from those swinging DDT spots for them to come to life and while the reaction got better towards the back half of the match, I feel like if OC had got his bog title win this week it wouldn't have come off as big as it should have. Hoping the cheating leads to a rematch for either the AA or Trios titles and OC/him and Best Friends get their big win then.
They seem like the only AEW originals not to have their big title moment yet.
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markymark
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by markymark on Sept 23, 2022 12:11:26 GMT -5
I mentioned this in the huge thread, but there was some podcast where a man and woman were discussing AEW, and they were talking about how TK keeps trying to play to Cornette-infused REAL WRESTLING FANS with long title reigns and playing down comedy and stuff like that. And then the woman was talking about her friends, who are mostly women and fairly casual about wrestling, and what they thought about the CM Punk kerfluffle. She was like, "Oh, they're just mad the Best Friends had two chances to win the trios titles and lost both times." I don't mean to blow this anecdote into a huge deal, but it does occur to me that this OC situation might actually reflect a big tension in AEW's booking, and sooner or later they're just going to have to choose: Are they looking to be unassailable in the eyes of hardcore serious fans, or are they willing to be loose and silly and light? In other words: are they aiming to soak up Cornette people, or are they actually trying to build their audience among casuals, many of whom are women? To me, it's pretty darn obvious which is the correct choice. But we're seeing right now you can't really pull off both. Because this right here is exactly what happens. You have OC pushed to title matches, but he loses all of them. And it makes no one happy.
But that doesnt explain why Dax seems unhappy lately and how Gunn Club roasted them on Dynamite couple of days ago.
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Post by The Captain on Sept 23, 2022 12:35:32 GMT -5
It's funny how people have used Orange Cassidy as both an example of someone who can grab casual fans and as the reason casual fans won't give AEW a chance.
Schrodinger's casual fan.
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
Posts: 38,661
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Post by Fade on Sept 23, 2022 13:21:03 GMT -5
It's funny how people have used Orange Cassidy as both an example of someone who can grab casual fans and as the reason casual fans won't give AEW a chance. Schrodinger's casual fan. The side that says the latter are idiots. Honestly a few days removed from the match I'm kind of glad they didn't pull the trigger on Wednesday. The crowd was really deflated for this match after the tag title match. It took Pac selling like he's been shot twice from those swinging DDT spots for them to come to life and while the reaction got better towards the back half of the match, I feel like if OC had got his bog title win this week it wouldn't have come off as big as it should have. Hoping the cheating leads to a rematch for either the AA or Trios titles and OC/him and Best Friends get their big win then. They seem like the only AEW originals not to have their big title moment yet. It seems like they made it the “cool-down” match on purpose. I really don’t know or care about the AAC at this point but the trios thing is interesting. I guess I can see the rematch happening but I can’t see them dropping it to Best Friends so soon. And I love Best Friends. |
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Post by carp (SPC, Itoh Respect Army) on Sept 23, 2022 14:02:45 GMT -5
It's funny how people have used Orange Cassidy as both an example of someone who can grab casual fans and as the reason casual fans won't give AEW a chance. Schrodinger's casual fan. They're talking about two different ideas of what a casual fan is. The former thinks of casual fans as "nerds, mostly women." The latter thinks of casual fans as "dudes just like me who love wrestling but inexplicably choose not to watch it." (actually, this is only half of the latter group. the other half just wants to find a way to avoid saying out loud that they really do not like the idea of a bunch of nerdy girls watching their show) |
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mystermystery
Dennis Stamp
Still in the White Hummer
Posts: 4,784
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Post by mystermystery on Sept 24, 2022 14:02:35 GMT -5
I'll live with my head canon that Orange loses his title shots because of a subconscious realization of how much he'll have to do as champion.
"What's that? Interviews? Scrums? Wearing a heavy belt around my waist? I need a nap."
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2022 15:34:55 GMT -5
I'll live with my head canon that Orange loses his title shots because of a subconscious realization of how much he'll have to do as champion. "What's that? Interviews? Scrums? Wearing a heavy belt around my waist? I need a nap." Which funny enough is actually what Bryan Danielson apparently thinks considering the reports that he chose not to win the title haha |
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kimrey
Bubba Ho-Tep
Posts: 539
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Post by kimrey on Sept 24, 2022 18:57:10 GMT -5
I'll live with my head canon that Orange loses his title shots because of a subconscious realization of how much he'll have to do as champion. "What's that? Interviews? Scrums? Wearing a heavy belt around my waist? I need a nap." He carried his iwtv title in his jansport backpack during his indie run. I would assume he’d do the same in AEW. |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Sept 26, 2022 2:48:33 GMT -5
Honestly and bear with me here OC feels like ab Undertaker kind of gimmick
I don't think he actually needs to win titles that much, he just needs angles
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Sept 26, 2022 16:51:07 GMT -5
Having now seen the match, I think Orange losing a lot of title matches isn't really the issue
PAC beat Kenny Omega clean. He has to use a hammer to beat Orange Cassidy?
Also I feel like doing the tweener thing doesn't work if you go too far in either direction, and PAC has been booked SO strong to this point it seems utterly weird that Orange is the match he suddenly cheats to win
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markymark
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by markymark on Oct 9, 2022 20:46:52 GMT -5
Bumping this because he is about to go 0-9 if they plan to have Pac drop the title to Take(rumored to be in Full Gear due to being removed from an indy show that was scheduled that night )
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