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Post by BorneAgain on Dec 4, 2022 12:34:48 GMT -5
Vince knew that NXT would struggle against Dynamite and used the former's eventual second place in the ratings against the latter as plausible deniability to change a developmental brand that he was increasingly lukewarm about.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 5, 2022 6:48:19 GMT -5
I believe Jericho about the merch issues. The first WCW Jericho action figure was a Grip n Flip set with Dean Malenko, which had NWO branding on the packaging despite neither talent being in amy way involved with them. There is an above average chance that it rang up as Hulk Hogan due to lazy people in inventory doing stuff like this all the time with action figures, using a lead characters name, or never updating prelim names for the line. I also buy that Hulk got undeserved royalties from a Jericho figure as it was technically NWO merch because of the branding on the packaging, and let's not forget that WCW were shafting people to the point they were sued over it.
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Post by James Fabiano on Dec 5, 2022 9:10:42 GMT -5
Vince didn't care if he released talent and they went to AEW. It gave said talent something to do, more importantly, on Tony Khan's dime.
(Now the AEW being a secret WWE farm league story is stretching it...)
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Post by Feyrhausen on Dec 5, 2022 9:33:18 GMT -5
I believe Jericho about the merch issues. The first WCW Jericho action figure was a Grip n Flip set with Dean Malenko, which had NWO branding on the packaging despite neither talent being in amy way involved with them. There is an above average chance that it rang up as Hulk Hogan due to lazy people in inventory doing stuff like this all the time with action figures, using a lead characters name, or never updating prelim names for the line. I also buy that Hulk got undeserved royalties from a Jericho figure as it was technically NWO merch because of the branding on the packaging, and let's not forget that WCW were shafting people to the point they were sued over it. WCW would have nothing to do with that though. Especially with what the toy rang up as at the toy store. The store ordered cases of toys from the toy company. The toy company decides what figures and how many of each are in a case. And the store puts the upcs and other info in their local system. For instance in a store I did this at we had a large amount of merch just put in as Assorted Dollar Items. So at whatever store Jericho bought his fig at the pricing coordinator just put every figure in under Hogan because it was easier. The toy company would never know this and it would affect nothing. A toy company pays for the license, they choose what figures to produce, how to brand them, etc. And generally merch payments come from WCW not the toy company. The toy company would send a statement to WCW stating who got figures, how many were produced, and how many shipped (to retail outlets, not customers). And WCW would distribute royalties. Now WCW could have sent some talents royalties to others using NWO branding or other excuses,
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Post by Ganon83 on Dec 5, 2022 12:54:16 GMT -5
WCW didn't lose $65 million by themselves. Turner moved some of their expenses from other parts of the corporation to WCW. Also, there was some screwy things with other accounting as well if I’m not mistaken. Didn’t the PPV and ad revenue go directly to Turner and didn’t show up on WCW’s P&L sheet? Any VHS revenue for WCW went towards Turner Home Entertainment, which is probably why WWF in general always had a stronger VHS game than WCW. I don't remember if it was Home Entertainment who took the PPV revenue after Hogan's insane cut (I think it was like 20%, even for shows he wasn't on), but I do believe that technically went under a different arm of Turner as well. One of the big things that Bischoff did when he came in was actually get paid by Turner for their TV shows, which is why he was able to suddenly turn a profit after years of "losses". I don't think WCW ever saw ad revenue, but Turner instead paid them a lump sum.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 5, 2022 15:57:25 GMT -5
WCW didn't lose $65 million by themselves. Turner moved some of their expenses from other parts of the corporation to WCW. If you haven't I'd recommend readying the book Nitro by Guy Evans. He interviewed former Turner executives who pretty much confirmedthat WCW's losses came from them moving debt from one department onto WCW's books because as Ted Turner lost power after the merger with Time Warner new execs wanted to have tangible evidence to cut WCW
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Post by johncasey on Dec 5, 2022 18:18:49 GMT -5
WCW didn't lose $65 million by themselves. Turner moved some of their expenses from other parts of the corporation to WCW. If you haven't I'd recommend readying the book Nitro by Guy Evans. He interviewed former Turner executives who pretty much confirmedthat WCW's losses came from them moving debt from one department onto WCW's books because as Ted Turner lost power after the merger with Time Warner new execs wanted to have tangible evidence to cut WCW Granted they were under a large corporation but WCW would have their own Accountant (I assume) if so, wouldn't they be wondering where these expenses came from?
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Dec 5, 2022 19:15:52 GMT -5
If you haven't I'd recommend readying the book Nitro by Guy Evans. He interviewed former Turner executives who pretty much confirmedthat WCW's losses came from them moving debt from one department onto WCW's books because as Ted Turner lost power after the merger with Time Warner new execs wanted to have tangible evidence to cut WCW Granted they were under a large corporation but WCW would have their own Accountant (I assume) if so, wouldn't they be wondering where these expenses came from? But this was WCW, it's entirely possible that the person in charge of that was one of the 953 wrestlers paid to sit at home and do nothing. And they had no clue it was part of their job.
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Post by Jindrak Mark on Dec 5, 2022 19:28:18 GMT -5
WCW didn't lose $65 million by themselves. Turner moved some of their expenses from other parts of the corporation to WCW. I can totally buy WCW lost that amount. Look at how bloated the roster was and the ridiculous contracts. In 1999 alone well over 100 wrestlers made over $100,000. Over 30 made over $250,000. Your top stars were making millions. Master P made $2m for a few appearances. Gene Simmons was paid a crazy amount so his likeness could be used on a (low-card) wrestler. Where is the money coming from to cover all this? Turner obviously owned TNT and TBS so they were getting no TV money for Nitro and Thunder other than negligible international deals. There was only like a combined 3 year period when WCW PPVs drew good numbers. And if Hogan wrestled on a PPV, which he did on most of the big ones, his contract stipulated that he got a large percentage of the gate/buyrate. They even chose to have a yearly PPV were no tickets were sold just because Bischoff wanted to attend a bike rally. Even at the peak of the attitude/NWO era top level advertisers looked down on wrestling so it's not like there were some untold millions coming in that way. Randy Savage's Slim Jim deal was probably the biggest. NWO t-shirt sales can only do so much. I think Turner was so rich he just accepted WCW running at a loss almost every year because he was a fan and it was a drop in the ocean for him. Then obviously the AOL/Warner merger happened.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Dec 5, 2022 19:52:27 GMT -5
WCW didn't lose $65 million by themselves. Turner moved some of their expenses from other parts of the corporation to WCW. I can totally buy WCW lost that amount. Look at how bloated the roster was and the ridiculous contracts. In 1999 alone well over 100 wrestlers made over $100,000. Over 30 made over $250,000. Your top stars were making millions. Master P made $2m for a few appearances. Gene Simmons was paid a crazy amount so his likeness could be used on a (low-card) wrestler. Where is the money coming from to cover all this? Turner obviously owned TNT and TBS so they were getting no TV money for Nitro and Thunder other than negligible international deals. There was only like a combined 3 year period when WCW PPVs drew good numbers. And if Hogan wrestled on a PPV, which he did on most of the big ones, his contract stipulated that he got a large percentage of the gate/buyrate. They even chose to have a yearly PPV were no tickets were sold just because Bischoff wanted to attend a bike rally. Even at the peak of the attitude/NWO era top level advertisers looked down on wrestling so it's not like there were some untold millions coming in that way. Randy Savage's Slim Jim deal was probably the biggest. NWO t-shirt sales can only do so much. I think Turner was so rich he just accepted WCW running at a loss almost every year because he was a fan and it was a drop in the ocean for him. Then obviously the AOL/Warner merger happened. WCW ran an Australian tour that sold out every night and still lost money. No one with any business sense was in charge. The company was run that way because they were Teds pet project and they felt he would always protect it.
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Post by The Dark Order Inferno on Dec 6, 2022 5:01:52 GMT -5
Dusty Rhodes and Jim Herd conspired to get rid of Ric Flair in 1991 I could totally buy there being a push to ditch Flair in 91, he was WCW's biggest earner and wasn't drawing enough to justify that, and to top it off he was a bit of a nightmare to deal with as the past twenty or thirty years have laid bare. Imagine having to deal with peak party guy Ric Flair, living the champaign lifestyle while the money isn't coming in and arguing with you over every decision while you're trying to turn round a stagnant WCW. He went to the WWF, and didn't draw for them either, even with the Royal Rumble showcase and the WCW title there to get him over. People mock Jim Herd for the Spartacus suggestion, but it's not one that would have been made if Flair was working as an attraction on the level he was being paid to be.
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Cranjis McBasketball
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Post by Cranjis McBasketball on Dec 6, 2022 6:27:48 GMT -5
I believe Jericho about the merch issues. The first WCW Jericho action figure was a Grip n Flip set with Dean Malenko, which had NWO branding on the packaging despite neither talent being in amy way involved with them. There is an above average chance that it rang up as Hulk Hogan due to lazy people in inventory doing stuff like this all the time with action figures, using a lead characters name, or never updating prelim names for the line. I also buy that Hulk got undeserved royalties from a Jericho figure as it was technically NWO merch because of the branding on the packaging, and let's not forget that WCW were shafting people to the point they were sued over it. WCW would have nothing to do with that though. Especially with what the toy rang up as at the toy store. The store ordered cases of toys from the toy company. The toy company decides what figures and how many of each are in a case. And the store puts the upcs and other info in their local system. For instance in a store I did this at we had a large amount of merch just put in as Assorted Dollar Items. So at whatever store Jericho bought his fig at the pricing coordinator just put every figure in under Hogan because it was easier. The toy company would never know this and it would affect nothing. A toy company pays for the license, they choose what figures to produce, how to brand them, etc. And generally merch payments come from WCW not the toy company. The toy company would send a statement to WCW stating who got figures, how many were produced, and how many shipped (to retail outlets, not customers). And WCW would distribute royalties. Now WCW could have sent some talents royalties to others using NWO branding or other excuses, I’ve explained this over and over to people here over the years. What the receipt says doesn’t mean a damn thing. When I worked retail, I had the power to input the system names, if I had to, 99.9% time this happened automatically, but once in a while, it had to be done manually and you had to call if something. So say I had to do apples for some reason, I could type in “Hulk Hogan” and anyone who bought apples would get a receipt saying Hulk Hogan. Hogan isn’t getting a misappropriated cheque for apples.
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Post by Feyrhausen on Dec 6, 2022 9:22:25 GMT -5
WCW would have nothing to do with that though. Especially with what the toy rang up as at the toy store. The store ordered cases of toys from the toy company. The toy company decides what figures and how many of each are in a case. And the store puts the upcs and other info in their local system. For instance in a store I did this at we had a large amount of merch just put in as Assorted Dollar Items. So at whatever store Jericho bought his fig at the pricing coordinator just put every figure in under Hogan because it was easier. The toy company would never know this and it would affect nothing. A toy company pays for the license, they choose what figures to produce, how to brand them, etc. And generally merch payments come from WCW not the toy company. The toy company would send a statement to WCW stating who got figures, how many were produced, and how many shipped (to retail outlets, not customers). And WCW would distribute royalties. Now WCW could have sent some talents royalties to others using NWO branding or other excuses, I’ve explained this over and over to people here over the years. What the receipt says doesn’t mean a damn thing. When I worked retail, I had the power to input the system names, if I had to, 99.9% time this happened automatically, but once in a while, it had to be done manually and you had to call if something. So say I had to do apples for some reason, I could type in “Hulk Hogan” and anyone who bought apples would get a receipt saying Hulk Hogan. Hogan isn’t getting a misappropriated cheque for apples. Nowadays you can generally download the UPC and other information from the distributor, company headquarters, etc. But back when Jericho was in WCW the internet was less advanced so its more likely that each store had to input information manually. Edit. And again, not saying that WCW wasnt diverting royalty money from lower card guys to top guys. But Jerichos receipt is not evidence of this.
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thecrusherwi
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Post by thecrusherwi on Dec 6, 2022 9:44:36 GMT -5
Ultimate Warrior was meant to just be a placeholder champion. Hogan was still getting all the hype even after losing the belt while Warrior was put in feuds against Rude (who he had beaten before) and Demolition. He was given the Savage feud later in his run, but that was likely so they could set up Savage costing Warrior the belt so they could get it off of him. Warrior wasnt even designed to be the next big thing, he was just a face to keep the belt warm (I think the same thing about Savage's 1988 run to be honest). While I agree that there were no plans to replace Hogan, I think Warrior was perhaps more of a trial run at a new top babyface than Savage was - they just didn't have enough big heels to feed him and Hogan at the same time. That fact is the big reason they had Hogan and Warrior headline WrestleMania VI in the first place. They didn't have any heels to fill the challenger slot. By summer 1990, they had one money heel, Earthquake, and they were (rightly IMO) giving him to Hogan. Savage's whole babyface run in 1987-88 was absolutely to create an emotionally charged super heel for Hogan to work with. It was like the Paul Orndorff arch in 1985-86 turned up 10 notches. It was clear after their house show feud in late 1985 that Hogan and Savage were destined to work on top in an era-defining super feud. The Mega Powers and Savage face turn was the way to get there.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 6, 2022 13:23:47 GMT -5
If you haven't I'd recommend readying the book Nitro by Guy Evans. He interviewed former Turner executives who pretty much confirmedthat WCW's losses came from them moving debt from one department onto WCW's books because as Ted Turner lost power after the merger with Time Warner new execs wanted to have tangible evidence to cut WCW Granted they were under a large corporation but WCW would have their own Accountant (I assume) if so, wouldn't they be wondering where these expenses came from? If you believe Eric Bischoff he noticed but at that point he knee he was already on the outs so he couldn't do anything. Based on the book? WCW offices were basically told this is what's happening and you can't really do anything
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Post by Alice Syndrome on Dec 6, 2022 14:03:09 GMT -5
WCW didn't lose $65 million by themselves. Turner moved some of their expenses from other parts of the corporation to WCW. If you haven't I'd recommend readying the book Nitro by Guy Evans. He interviewed former Turner executives who pretty much confirmedthat WCW's losses came from them moving debt from one department onto WCW's books because as Ted Turner lost power after the merger with Time Warner new execs wanted to have tangible evidence to cut WCW That kind of corporate nonsense would explain that story of... I think Nash and Storm... trying to figure out the power structure backstage one week, and the best estimate of their actual boss they came up with was the head of Payroll.
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Post by Ganon83 on Dec 7, 2022 22:53:52 GMT -5
On the other hand, though, weren’t most of WCW’s big names under contract with Time Warner directly and not factored into those losses by consequence? Which is why it took so long to get most of them into WWE.
Ultimately, the financial aspects of the company don’t mean as much as you’d think when it comes to the company continuing to be in operations. The losses made it easier for people in Turner against wrestling to argue the company should be spun off, but if their TV ratings and PPV buys didn’t drop off the cliff to near TNA numbers in like a year’s time, it would be strange if no new buyers would want to take it on. Hell, Bischoff maybe gets the deal done regardless if he had another month to find a new TV deal instead of Turner cancelling programming at the 11th hour and taking all of the company’s value away, forcing Eric to scramble trying to find a deal in a very short time period.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 8, 2022 10:02:46 GMT -5
On the other hand, though, weren’t most of WCW’s big names under contract with Time Warner directly and not factored into those losses by consequence? Which is why it took so long to get most of them into WWE. Ultimately, the financial aspects of the company don’t mean as much as you’d think when it comes to the company continuing to be in operations. The losses made it easier for people in Turner against wrestling to argue the company should be spun off, but if their TV ratings and PPV buys didn’t drop off the cliff to near TNA numbers in like a year’s time, it would be strange if no new buyers would want to take it on. Hell, Bischoff maybe gets the deal done regardless if he had another month to find a new TV deal instead of Turner cancelling programming at the 11th hour and taking all of the company’s value away, forcing Eric to scramble trying to find a deal in a very short time period. On the contracts, every shoot I've seen was that the WCW contracts were through Turner, and when WWF approached them about working the deals were either waive the remainder of the contract and take the WWE offers which were for less money or sit out and collect the remainder of the Turner contract... as Nash explained it in his shoot, "I can either go back to work and get half my money, or I can sit at home for a year and get all my money" On the sale to Eric. From everything I've read the issue wasn't as much the tv deal, and I believe Eric even said that a new agreement for a lower sale was agreed to, the issue was Fusient basically got tired of dealing with Jamie Kellner because he was constantly changing the deal so they just said they were done. The tv deal was just an easy way to say why it ended.
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Post by TOK Hehe'd Around & Found Out on Dec 8, 2022 10:28:34 GMT -5
On the other hand, though, weren’t most of WCW’s big names under contract with Time Warner directly and not factored into those losses by consequence? Which is why it took so long to get most of them into WWE. Ultimately, the financial aspects of the company don’t mean as much as you’d think when it comes to the company continuing to be in operations. The losses made it easier for people in Turner against wrestling to argue the company should be spun off, but if their TV ratings and PPV buys didn’t drop off the cliff to near TNA numbers in like a year’s time, it would be strange if no new buyers would want to take it on. Hell, Bischoff maybe gets the deal done regardless if he had another month to find a new TV deal instead of Turner cancelling programming at the 11th hour and taking all of the company’s value away, forcing Eric to scramble trying to find a deal in a very short time period. On the contracts, every shoot I've seen was that the WCW contracts were through Turner, and when WWF approached them about working the deals were either waive the remainder of the contract and take the WWE offers which were for less money or sit out and collect the remainder of the Turner contract... as Nash explained it in his shoot, "I can either go back to work and get half my money, or I can sit at home for a year and get all my money" On the sale to Eric. From everything I've read the issue wasn't as much the tv deal, and I believe Eric even said that a new agreement for a lower sale was agreed to, the issue was Fusient basically got tired of dealing with Jamie Kellner because he was constantly changing the deal so they just said they were done. The tv deal was just an easy way to say why it ended. I'm pretty sure that they actually had a deal in place for Fusient to straight up buy a time slot from TNT along with WCW, and the TV slot didn't have to be anything wrestling related. Kellner was a raging jackass but this is an absurd deal to make, Bischoff and Harvey were pretty much trying to use the chaos of the merger to sneak their way into buying 2 hours of primetime programming for dirt cheap but then it became too much to deal with even for what they'd be getting out of it. No one was going to buy a tarnished brand with zero pathways to getting it back on TV, between the PTC raising hell and ECW torching the TNN relationship no one was going to touch any non-WWF programming
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Post by Futureraven: Beelzebruv on Dec 8, 2022 10:52:47 GMT -5
Granted they were under a large corporation but WCW would have their own Accountant (I assume) if so, wouldn't they be wondering where these expenses came from? But this was WCW, it's entirely possible that the person in charge of that was one of the 953 wrestlers paid to sit at home and do nothing. And they had no clue it was part of their job. They did have this guy for a while, he could have helped.
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