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Post by kingoftheindies on Aug 6, 2023 11:42:19 GMT -5
Yeah Punk's trans shirt was really good, good shit from him Looks like they are going full bore face with him right now, and Ricky beating the shit out of Steamboat's a good way for Punk to get the crowd behind him, they were tonight by the end especially. This is a hot program, won't be shocked if he costs Punk the trios belts next week Big thing is that trios match, if CMFTR in fact do end up winning, with The Elite re-signing to long term deals... CMFTR vs The Elite for the Trios Titles is definitely happening at All Out, that is of course IF CMFTR win, could very easily not. Feels liek Elite re-signing kicked stuff into a new gear though It was one thing for Punk to say the "Counterfeit Bucks" stuff a few weeks ago. But The Elite confirming they're sticking around, and Kenny Omega even teasing they could show up on Collision. It feels more likely now . If not, there will still be people that won't shut up about it until it does happen. Even if it doesn't... Wembley Stadium is a big place, at least they can be kept at opposite ends of the place in 3 weeks. I wouldn't be shocked if the Elite and Punk privately came to some kind of agreement and basically agreed to just do their own things. I could also see that not happening, but I just get the feeling that they agreed that there was room for both parties in AEW. |
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Post by kingoftheindies on Aug 6, 2023 12:10:18 GMT -5
I hope the people swearing up and down that he's totes turning heel are willing to admit they were wrong. I will say I felt thr angle was clearly placing Punk to not be a clear heel/face but show he was full of himself but clearly I was wrong |
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Kalmia
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Post by Kalmia on Aug 6, 2023 12:23:54 GMT -5
I'm gonna keep banging this drum of how messy Punk's booking is. I don't believe in punishment booking so I'm not annoyed at him for being the "star" of Collision or anything like that, but make it all make sense.
Calling yourself the "real world champion" and defending a belt that doesn't exist is heel booking 101. A face can come back from being stripped of the title and say they never lost it, but they should be willing to prove themselves by working through the roster before they call themselves the champion again. Punk is following the heel playbook but is trying to be a face at the same time? It's not working for me, guys.
AEW has done a great job of messing around with traditional face and heel roles. MJF, Eddie Kingston, Hangman etc have all sometimes acted in ways that go against their face/heel alignment and it's made them more interesting and fully-rounded characters. This isn't that, IMO.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 6, 2023 12:33:08 GMT -5
Im just happy that Punk is sticking to what Bald and others online said he just wants to give back, he is putting over young talent by going over young talent and getting the PPVs matches.
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 6, 2023 13:32:15 GMT -5
I hope the people swearing up and down that he's totes turning heel are willing to admit they were wrong. I will say I felt thr angle was clearly placing Punk to not be a clear heel/face but show he was full of himself but clearly I was wrong Yeah, I did think Ricky being a total asshole at the end was awesome, but it does mean that the angle is much more straightforward now with face Punk/heel Starks. The good thing that Punk is doing in most markets is he's showing a willingness to lean into the boos; not doing that was one of the main criticisms of the "controversial Cena" era, but the guy straight up played heel against Kojima (until shaking his hand at the end) and has even worked some heeling into his promos when the crowd is more hostile. Good; acknowledge that they exist, don't run away from them, integrate them if you can. The problem is that eventually something has to give; you can't ride the divide forever, especially when the guy feels white meat babyface some weeks and can act like a prick the next without it being part of the design. Like, Hiroshi Tanahashi is legendarily great at playing heel when appropriate despite long being NJPW's uber-face, but it's in special situations, like times when he's fought wrestlers from other promotions on their home turf, or when he was the veteran and started getting desperate against the young upstart Okada at the height of their feud; it didn't just vary from week to week so wildly, you can't make that work forever. So, at some point there's going to have to be a decision made; Punk doesn't have to go pure 100% face or heel, but they need a consistent direction, whatever it ends up being, or this likely ends up losing its focus after a little while. That said, holy smokes, folks, of course the guy's gonna be on the pay per views; guy's merch is selling like crazy and he's getting big reactions, why on Earth would he not be at the big shows this coming month? Again, it's fine if you personally don't like him, but this is getting silly. |
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Post by markymark on Aug 6, 2023 13:42:26 GMT -5
I hope the people swearing up and down that he's totes turning heel are willing to admit they were wrong. I will say I felt thr angle was clearly placing Punk to not be a clear heel/face but show he was full of himself but clearly I was wrong
Now it seems that they want him to be like 2012 Austin Aries, that version of Aries on TNA tv was a face but he was also a douche toward the fans at times.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Aug 6, 2023 13:53:40 GMT -5
I'm gonna keep banging this drum of how messy Punk's booking is. I don't believe in punishment booking so I'm not annoyed at him for being the "star" of Collision or anything like that, but make it all make sense. Calling yourself the "real world champion" and defending a belt that doesn't exist is heel booking 101. A face can come back from being stripped of the title and say they never lost it, but they should be willing to prove themselves by working through the roster before they call themselves the champion again. Punk is following the heel playbook but is trying to be a face at the same time? It's not working for me, guys. AEW has done a great job of messing around with traditional face and heel roles. MJF, Eddie Kingston, Hangman etc have all sometimes acted in ways that go against their face/heel alignment and it's made them more interesting and fully-rounded characters. This isn't that, IMO. I think where they do it so well is that they present just like, ambiguous human traits in those guys. Eddie is the good guy underdog but he has a temper. MJF is the dirtbag asshole but he's also insecure and wants a friend. These are actual complications within people, they make characters feel more real. Having a face do like straight-up heel booking stuff doesn't give Punk any rounding at all. Hell, he's arguably even already had that rounding; as a face Punk is usually a smug dickhead with a chip on his shoulder certain he's morally superior to everyone around him, that's baked into his gimmick. But like on a narrative level, everyone named generally keeps to their side of things; MJF on his face run has still done some cheating in tag matches and still says out of line shit, Eddie's a good guy at the end of the day even if he lets his anger get to him. But Punk doing what in the narrative is heel shit with a completely forward face schtick is absolute crap and it's where we're going from complicated characters and nuance just straight off the deep end into a story that doesn't stand up on its own legs. |
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 6, 2023 13:59:09 GMT -5
I'm gonna keep banging this drum of how messy Punk's booking is. I don't believe in punishment booking so I'm not annoyed at him for being the "star" of Collision or anything like that, but make it all make sense. Calling yourself the "real world champion" and defending a belt that doesn't exist is heel booking 101. A face can come back from being stripped of the title and say they never lost it, but they should be willing to prove themselves by working through the roster before they call themselves the champion again. Punk is following the heel playbook but is trying to be a face at the same time? It's not working for me, guys. AEW has done a great job of messing around with traditional face and heel roles. MJF, Eddie Kingston, Hangman etc have all sometimes acted in ways that go against their face/heel alignment and it's made them more interesting and fully-rounded characters. This isn't that, IMO. I think where they do it so well is that they present just like, ambiguous human traits in those guys. Eddie is the good guy underdog but he has a temper. MJF is the dirtbag asshole but he's also insecure and wants a friend. These are actual complications within people, they make characters feel more real. Having a face do like straight-up heel booking stuff doesn't give Punk any rounding at all. Hell, he's arguably even already had that rounding; as a face Punk is usually a smug dickhead with a chip on his shoulder certain he's morally superior to everyone around him, that's baked into his gimmick. But like on a narrative level, everyone named generally keeps to their side of things; MJF on his face run has still done some cheating in tag matches and still says out of line shit, Eddie's a good guy at the end of the day even if he lets his anger get to him. But Punk doing what in the narrative is heel shit with a completely forward face schtick is absolute crap and it's where we're going from complicated characters and nuance just straight off the deep end into a story that doesn't stand up on its own legs. I'm curious if he thought he might be able to do a Bret Hart "face here, but heel there" thing, which would be fine if they could tell which markets he'd be all cheered or all booed in...but outside of Chicago (cheered, obviously) and Toronto (booed pretty heavily), the crowds are closer to an even split, so that won't work. And yeah, that's kind of what I meant; even if he or they don't want Punk to commit all the way to one side of the alignment ledger or the other, they need to zero in on who he is, that way when he does nice or bad thing it will feel like it has a consistent character-based motivation to it. Heel Eddie Kingston was willing to cover Jon Moxley when he thought the ring would explode on him, and it didn't feel at all out of character for him; if Punk's going to be righteously angry over Ricky Steamboat being attacked but then sometimes throw some heel barbs into a promo, there needs to be a solid reason established why he, as a character, could end up doing both. |
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Post by firsttimelongtime on Aug 6, 2023 14:11:55 GMT -5
Why can’t be Punk be called what he is: a tweener?
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Post by HMARK Center on Aug 6, 2023 14:17:48 GMT -5
Why can’t be Punk be called what he is: a tweener? I think he should be a tweener! The problem is he's bouncing between face and heel behavior without us getting a feeling for why he would, beyond "will throw a barb at a more hostile crowd here and there." That's what I keep saying about needing a more focused, directed, consistent character. Go ahead and make it shades of grey, a full tweener, whatever, but commit to it. |
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Post by The Captain on Aug 6, 2023 14:20:23 GMT -5
I don't think there's anything wrong with Punk being a tweener. But even tweeners still need to have some sort of internal consistency that's true to the character. Punk's current AEW character is all over the place and reactionary. Like I'd normally chalk this up to the promotion itself having no clue what they're doing with him, but I imagine Khan gives Punk a lot of leniency to do as he pleases.
The weird thing is that it goes against what I normally think of as some of Punk's biggest strengths: character work and storytelling between the ropes, whether that's on the mic or ring psychology.
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Post by firsttimelongtime on Aug 6, 2023 14:27:11 GMT -5
I think Punk continues to be as true to himself as possible. His reactions reflect his feelings which may be taken as fragmented, but it is him. It’s the same reality to him that led (and continues to lead) to his success. He will save a 70 year old wrestler because he loves the history of this business, and he will spray paint an X across the world championship because he believes that’s what is justified. It’s ying and yang but he’s still at the core CM Punk and it has created a really unique live atmosphere for AEW.
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 6, 2023 14:27:48 GMT -5
Punk isn't a tweener he is a full face tha5 baits people into thinking he might turn him because he isn't likeable.
He ia John cena and AEW Cody
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Kalmia
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Post by Kalmia on Aug 6, 2023 14:30:22 GMT -5
I don't get the tweener vibe from Punk. I get the vibe of someone who is tossing a coin to see whether he's going to play heel or face that night. The only thing consistent about Punk's current character is his inconsistency.
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Post by firsttimelongtime on Aug 6, 2023 14:36:47 GMT -5
I don't get the tweener vibe from Punk. I get the vibe of someone who is tossing a coin to see whether he's going to play heel or face that night. The only thing consistent about Punk's current character is his inconsistency. Is that not true of Punk himself though? Take the All Out scrum for example. In the midst of being a gigantic asshole to the Elite he makes it a point to call Adam Cole a “sweetheart.” It’s random, incoherent, yet genuine. Punk is a messy bitch, just like his character. I can understand not liking this, there’s certainly stuff I dislike everyone likes but I don’t think it’s fair to describe it as unsuccessful. Collision is doing great in terms of crowd reaction, tickets, and ratings. I think it is fair to attribute some of that to the authenticity of Punk. |
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Dub H
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Post by Dub H on Aug 6, 2023 14:54:36 GMT -5
I don't get the tweener vibe from Punk. I get the vibe of someone who is tossing a coin to see whether he's going to play heel or face that night. The only thing consistent about Punk's current character is his inconsistency. Is that not true of Punk himself though? Take the All Out scrum for example. In the midst of being a gigantic asshole to the Elite he makes it a point to call Adam Cole a “sweetheart.” It’s random, incoherent, yet genuine. Punk is a messy bitch, just like his character. I can understand not liking this, there’s certainly stuff I dislike everyone likes but I don’t think it’s fair to describe it as unsuccessful. Collision is doing great in terms of crowd reaction, tickets, and ratings. I think it is fair to attribute some of that to the authenticity of Punk. Punk is many things, one that he is not is genuine |
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Post by Mid-Carder on Aug 6, 2023 14:57:20 GMT -5
I don't get the tweener vibe from Punk. I get the vibe of someone who is tossing a coin to see whether he's going to play heel or face that night. The only thing consistent about Punk's current character is his inconsistency. Is that not true of Punk himself though? Take the All Out scrum for example. In the midst of being a gigantic asshole to the Elite he makes it a point to call Adam Cole a “sweetheart.” It’s random, incoherent, yet genuine. Punk is a messy bitch, just like his character. I can understand not liking this, there’s certainly stuff I dislike everyone likes but I don’t think it’s fair to describe it as unsuccessful. Collision is doing great in terms of crowd reaction, tickets, and ratings. I think it is fair to attribute some of that to the authenticity of Punk. She said it's inconsistent, not unsuccessful |
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Kalmia
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Post by Kalmia on Aug 6, 2023 14:59:10 GMT -5
I don't get the tweener vibe from Punk. I get the vibe of someone who is tossing a coin to see whether he's going to play heel or face that night. The only thing consistent about Punk's current character is his inconsistency. Is that not true of Punk himself though? Take the All Out scrum for example. In the midst of being a gigantic asshole to the Elite he makes it a point to call Adam Cole a “sweetheart.” It’s random, incoherent, yet genuine. Punk is a messy bitch, just like his character. I can understand not liking this, there’s certainly stuff I dislike everyone likes but I don’t think it’s fair to describe it as unsuccessful. Collision is doing great in terms of crowd reaction, tickets, and ratings. I think it is fair to attribute some of that to the authenticity of Punk. I don't think I've ever called it unsuccessful. I don't think I've ever said that I expect everyone to agree with me either. I'm well aware that I'm only speaking for myself. |
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Aug 6, 2023 15:00:06 GMT -5
The weird thing is that it goes against what I normally think of as some of Punk's biggest strengths: character work and storytelling between the ropes, whether that's on the mic or ring psychology. I've said it before on this topic but if this is Punk trying to be a tweener, then that's a defense of this story that actually shits on Punk as a wrestler, because this is crap. This is none of CM Punk's strengths in this capacity. It's cheap shots at sports teams whenever crowds boo him and a delusional champion gimmick while he in every other capacity acts in every wya like a face and has heels escalating on him non-stop. All in-show buddies are unambiguously faces. None of it's connecting, none of it's what tweener Punk should be. He is capable of so much better and if these contradictions are intentional, that's embarassing, because they aren't really interesting contradictions and aren't cohesively a singular character. Right now punk is in all ways a face, except for the title he's defending like a face regardless of its legitimacy, and that when crowds boo him he takes a jab at their hockey team. That's lame. That's nothing. I'm not a fan of the guy anymore but I can still admit he's such a better storyteller and talker than this. There's actually no excuse for his material to be this shoddy, and I think calling what's going on here fully intentional does a greater disservice to the guy than the criticism does. |
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Post by firsttimelongtime on Aug 6, 2023 15:46:32 GMT -5
Is that not true of Punk himself though? Take the All Out scrum for example. In the midst of being a gigantic asshole to the Elite he makes it a point to call Adam Cole a “sweetheart.” It’s random, incoherent, yet genuine. Punk is a messy bitch, just like his character. I can understand not liking this, there’s certainly stuff I dislike everyone likes but I don’t think it’s fair to describe it as unsuccessful. Collision is doing great in terms of crowd reaction, tickets, and ratings. I think it is fair to attribute some of that to the authenticity of Punk. I don't think I've ever called it unsuccessful. I don't think I've ever said that I expect everyone to agree with me either. I'm well aware that I'm only speaking for myself. Yeah my fault because I was responding to the criticism as a whole but only quoting your post so I apologize for the confusion. |
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