Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2022 19:33:17 GMT -5
Honestly, people shit on this gimmick all the time and I get it. On the surface, it's pretty gross.
BUT the presentation was amazing. It really did feel like a 1950s TV show gimmick. The black and white entrance, the cheesy vignettes... That sort of stuff is what I love in wrestling, even now.
Russo has a point here. Nobody would've gave a shit about "Chaz, the proper rassler in plain trunks" but everyone remembers this gimmick almost 25 years later. That says something.
I would've liked to see it play out and have him keep the gimmick without the incest undertones. That's what killed it for most people. If he just had a "hot mom"? Fair enough. Maybe he could've got into a feud with somebody she was having sex with or something.
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Post by Confused Mark Wahlberg on Dec 19, 2022 19:58:39 GMT -5
But he didn't have any cleavage or a beaver.
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XIII
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 18,929
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Post by XIII on Dec 19, 2022 20:02:34 GMT -5
But he didn't have any cleavage or a beaver.
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Post by TOK Is the Target Demo on Dec 19, 2022 20:09:36 GMT -5
Honestly, people shit on this gimmick all the time and I get it. On the surface, it's pretty gross. BUT the presentation was amazing. It really did feel like a 1950s TV show gimmick. The black and white entrance, the cheesy vignettes... That sort of stuff is what I love in wrestling, even now. Russo has a point here. Nobody would've gave a shit about "Chaz, the proper rassler in plain trunks" but everyone remembers this gimmick almost 25 years later. That says something. We're talking about it 25 years later because the entire premise of the gimmick was "incest porno Leave It to Beaver", not because it was a creative gold mine. We still talk about Rosie vs. Trump because it got 15000 people to chant "TNA" and drove viewers away in record numbers, not because it was an example of McMahon tapping into the cultural zeitgeist. They did another 50's throwback gimmick almost a decade later with Deuce and Domino and it went over very well BECAUSE NEITHER OF THEM WAS IMPLIED TO BE f***ING THEIR MOTHER But that's not what happened. The core of the gimmick was "this dude wants to f*** his mom" and when they shut that down the gimmick was no more.
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Post by Celexa Bliss on Dec 19, 2022 20:16:59 GMT -5
Literally the ONLY thing about Beaver Cleavage that I remember is how it ended lol that segment where he was being interviewed about wrestling Meat and had a breakdown? Then the next week, he apologized, said his name was Chaz, and he just wanted to have fun.
And then Russo used that same ending for S7ven in WCW when that got nixed for implying pedophilia.
...I'm beginning to think Russo was either writing for the wrong medium, or just really sick. Actually, probably just the second one.
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,778
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Post by cjh on Dec 19, 2022 20:19:59 GMT -5
Honestly, people shit on this gimmick all the time and I get it. On the surface, it's pretty gross. BUT the presentation was amazing. It really did feel like a 1950s TV show gimmick. The black and white entrance, the cheesy vignettes... That sort of stuff is what I love in wrestling, even now. Russo has a point here. Nobody would've gave a shit about "Chaz, the proper rassler in plain trunks" but everyone remembers this gimmick almost 25 years later. That says something. We're talking about it 25 years later because the entire premise of the gimmick was "incest porno Leave It to Beaver", not because it was a creative gold mine. We still talk about Rosie vs. Trump because it got 15000 people to chant "TNA" and drove viewers away in record numbers, not because it was an example of McMahon tapping into the cultural zeitgeist. They did another 50's throwback gimmick almost a decade later with Deuce and Domino and it went over very well BECAUSE NEITHER OF THEM WAS IMPLIED TO BE f***ING THEIR MOTHER But that's not what happened. The core of the gimmick was "this dude wants to f*** his mom" and when they shut that down the gimmick was no more. Weren't they supposed to be just a really weird couple role playing or something? Marianna was less than 2 years older than Chaz.
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Post by TOK Is the Target Demo on Dec 19, 2022 20:37:52 GMT -5
We're talking about it 25 years later because the entire premise of the gimmick was "incest porno Leave It to Beaver", not because it was a creative gold mine. We still talk about Rosie vs. Trump because it got 15000 people to chant "TNA" and drove viewers away in record numbers, not because it was an example of McMahon tapping into the cultural zeitgeist. They did another 50's throwback gimmick almost a decade later with Deuce and Domino and it went over very well BECAUSE NEITHER OF THEM WAS IMPLIED TO BE f***ING THEIR MOTHER But that's not what happened. The core of the gimmick was "this dude wants to f*** his mom" and when they shut that down the gimmick was no more. Weren't they supposed to be just a really weird couple role playing or something? Marianna was less than 2 years older than Chaz. An incest fetish gimmick is a half-inch better than an incest gimmick. Either way, what's the f***ing point? How is that an impetus for a wrestling character?
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cjh
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 6,778
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Post by cjh on Dec 19, 2022 20:41:40 GMT -5
Weren't they supposed to be just a really weird couple role playing or something? Marianna was less than 2 years older than Chaz. An incest fetish gimmick is a half-inch better than an incest gimmick. Either way, what's the f***ing point? How is that an impetus for a wrestling character? No argument there. No way Russo considered that, though. He has said that he and Ed Ferrera were writing WWF TV while watching The Jerry Springer Show.
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Post by jason1980s on Dec 19, 2022 20:45:35 GMT -5
Was Russo also behind G TV, more specifically where Marianna is claiming Chaz assaulted her? I feel like he was gone before then but if not him, who else could be behind this?
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tirtefaa
Unicron
If you wanna know the truth, you gotta dig up Johnny Booth.
Posts: 3,245
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Post by tirtefaa on Dec 19, 2022 21:08:52 GMT -5
The fact he ended that with "you missed out"..
Like..I can say with absolute certainty that 95% of the character work that Russo wrote was entirely forgettable, and a lot of the time was outright terrible. I'll give him credit for at least giving everyone something, but I'll give the wrestlers credit for making me CARE about them.
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Post by King Devitt and the Woke Mob on Dec 19, 2022 21:18:06 GMT -5
Imagine decades have gone by, you've written so much shitty material you're practically a walking parody, and THIS is what you choose to dust off and yell at clouds about...
It's perfect.
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chazraps
Wade Wilson
Better have my money when I come-a collect!
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Post by chazraps on Dec 19, 2022 21:20:28 GMT -5
Was Russo also behind G TV, more specifically where Marianna is claiming Chaz assaulted her? I feel like he was gone before then but if not him, who else could be behind this? That was before Russo left and, yes, Russo was behind it. You might be misremembering him being gone as GTV continued long after he left without it being properly resolved. Goldust confirmed on Twitter a few years back that it was always supposed to be him but then he left for WCW and they just kept it going. It was pitched backstage at one point following Dustin' departure that it could have been Tom Green behind it all (which isn't that farfetched as MTV and WWF still had a very close relationship at that point. However, this would have been around the time Tom Green was hospitalized with his very publicized bout with testicular cancer, so he wouldn't have been available regardless.
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Mozenrath
FANatic
Foppery and Whim
Speedy Speed Boy
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Post by Mozenrath on Dec 19, 2022 21:23:07 GMT -5
Weren't they supposed to be just a really weird couple role playing or something? Marianna was less than 2 years older than Chaz. An incest fetish gimmick is a half-inch better than an incest gimmick. Either way, what's the f***ing point? How is that an impetus for a wrestling character? That's one of the biggest problems Russo had, albeit not the only one. He wrote like he was doing some kind of trashy variety show, and gave zero shits about how this stuff would translate into matches.
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Post by Main Eventer on Dec 20, 2022 0:32:41 GMT -5
I don't even know what the point of the article even is. All it is, is Russo complaining about people not giving his terrible idea a chance. It could have actuallybeen an interesting read if Russo actually laid out what the plan was for Beaver before it got shot down.
Then again though that would be impossible, because like all of Russo's work he never ever had a ending for his storylines until like a week before.
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Post by Rumble McSkirmish on Dec 20, 2022 5:32:41 GMT -5
So basically the entire crux of Russo's argument was that Beaver Cleavage was:
I mean on the surface level I get the intention that they wanted to give Chaz something to do while his tag partner recovered, so in that case why didn't they just push Mosh as a singles star for a bit then. It would have still worked in 1999 as a lot of bands that the Headbangers gimmick was a homage to was still receiving regular airplay (IE Korn, Manson, White Zombie et al.) They even could have still brought Marianna in as some lady he met at a club or something.
No instead for some reason they went with a gimmick that was a little too esoteric for their target demographic at the time, I mean this might be an overgeneralization of sorts but I can't imagine any of the regular Raw viewers also watching a lot of Leave it To Beaver (Outside of maybe catching an episode or two when they were sick from school and there was nothing else on at the time.)
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Post by kingoftheindies on Dec 20, 2022 8:11:01 GMT -5
I'm sure Russo's column can have some interesting topics, this is not one I think was worth defending.
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Dec 20, 2022 8:18:13 GMT -5
Imagine creating a gimmick so bad, a 1999 WWF crowd crapped on it, a crowd that was into John Tenta in a gold mask holding a Cartman doll and a pro wrestling porn star, and then turning around and going “They didn’t get it, bro! It was high art!”
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Sephiroth
Wade Wilson
Surviving
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Post by Sephiroth on Dec 20, 2022 8:20:50 GMT -5
Literally the ONLY thing about Beaver Cleavage that I remember is how it ended lol that segment where he was being interviewed about wrestling Meat and had a breakdown? Then the next week, he apologized, said his name was Chaz, and he just wanted to have fun. And then Russo used that same ending for S7ven in WCW when that got nixed for implying pedophilia. ...I'm beginning to think Russo was either writing for the wrong medium, or just really sick. Actually, probably just the second one. Russo is urbanite trash. The city slicker version of trailer park trash. According to many sources he was a big fan of Jerry Springer and Howard Stern and drew heavy inspiration from them. At the same time, he wanted to write himself as the top villain, as world champion, and as having a fling with a supermodel. I think all that says it all about what kind of material he is cut from.
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Post by TOK Is the Target Demo on Dec 20, 2022 8:48:52 GMT -5
Literally the ONLY thing about Beaver Cleavage that I remember is how it ended lol that segment where he was being interviewed about wrestling Meat and had a breakdown? Then the next week, he apologized, said his name was Chaz, and he just wanted to have fun. And then Russo used that same ending for S7ven in WCW when that got nixed for implying pedophilia. ...I'm beginning to think Russo was either writing for the wrong medium, or just really sick. Actually, probably just the second one. Russo is urbanite trash. The city slicker version of trailer park trash. According to many sources he was a big fan of Jerry Springer and Howard Stern and drew heavy inspiration from them. At the same time, he wanted to write himself as the top villain, as world champion, and as having a fling with a supermodel. I think all that says it all about what kind of material he is cut from. He's not even urbanite trash. I'm from the literal sewer of Long Island, and some of the people here are too trashy and ridiculous to be believed.
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Post by SneakMan on Dec 20, 2022 8:58:37 GMT -5
Imagine being Vince Russo in the year 2022.
Your name is a punchline, one that's used as shorthand for trashy melodrama, nonsensical swerves, and the worst excesses of worked shoot nonsense. Your name is synonymous with garbage. Yet somehow you somehow end up weaseling your way into a columnist gig on a wrestling website, albeit a website devoted to the worst of pro wrestling (one that has featured many of your storylines and characters, in fact). You use this space to complain about how impatient the fans are, how they just didn't understand your high art, in reference to an incest angle from 23 years ago.
Even by washed up pro wrestling standards, it's a truly pathetic career twilight.
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