Ric Flair was All Elite: Not any more.

[A Platypus Rave is Correct]

Dec 2, 2023 1:06:08 GMT -5 Mecca said:

Dec 1, 2023 17:18:02 GMT -5 Bo Rida said:

That's the issue really. Why go there and remind people? If it's felt he really has to in charachter then why be so creepily age specific? Just stick to the vaguer partying and picking up schtick.

Christian is much younger and a bigger scumbag on screen but even he knows that middle-aged widows are a more suitable target for his affections.

Ric has never been able to come to terms with his age or stepping aside etc.

In Japan Riki Chosu redid the Sekigun stable..he went from being the lead star the first time around to being a manager mouthpiece the second timr because he was much older.

WCW brought the horsemen back in what 98? Flair refused to step back like Chosu did. So at basically 50 years old Flair was out there acting like the party all night playboy.

He's never been able to accept that it isn't 1986 anymore when it comes to those things.

from all accounts because Ric still is the party all night playboy... or he was until relatively recently...

That said even if Ric was still able to talk like he did in the 80's and 90s.... Ric is not going to be a manager type... he's not going to be JJ Dillon.

He's The Nature Boy Ric Flair, and that's all he knows how to be... and the Nature Boy is the star.

[markymark]

twitter.com/AIRGxld/status/1730554331865243743

Even Titus was defending Flair and he is a WWE ambassador

[Jedi-El of Tomorrow]

Dec 2, 2023 5:18:38 GMT -5 "American Cream" Dusty Loads said:

Dec 2, 2023 4:59:27 GMT -5 THE FVNKER said:

I already know the mob is coming for my head on this one, but if this is truly a place for discussion then all sides deserve equal volume.

Let me get these out of the way.

- I don't know Ric Flair personally. Never worked with him, never met him, never seen him in real life.
- I don't condone the stuff he is alleged to have done. It's not ok and my heart goes out to anyone he is said to have affected.
- How you, or anyone else feels about what Ric did is valid and fair and I'm not entitled to take that from you or anyone else.

But reading post after post after post of people not only holding Ric's past against him it's bled into people shitting on his friends for supporting him?

Has it occurred to anyone that his friends/peers just like the guy? Surely you guys have people in your life who have some pretty messed up pasts who you still love and talk to. Hell, I've done things I wish I never did. There's probably people in this thread itself who've done worse things than what Ric did. Some of these guys (Austin being the one in my mind) have probably had conversations with Ric about this stuff and might know more about how Ric feels than you guys do.

Personally I don't really care and it doesn't affect me or my family so I have no vested interest in what Ric Flair does or doesn't do, nor what a group of people on a wrestling forum think about him but I'm also the type of person who stands on what they believe and the toxic groupthink and piggybacking of weird negativity not only in this thread but others is lame to me.

I guess I just hate how certain people in public view have to endure so much shit-talking just because they're on TV. Some deserve it but sometimes it's just like, "uncle". What kind of progressive conversation is anyone going to have if we just keep posting screens of his literal friends supporting him and people on here just flatly being like "Wait what how come you don't hate this man you've known for years on end just like I do even though I don't know shit about him or the situation".

Idk. Maybe I'm the weird one. Sorry if this rubs anyone the wrong way, that's not my intention. I've been in a position not that long ago where a private area of my life (a messy divorce, don't jump to conclusions) became a public matter, so I've seen first hand how hurtful the comments of others can be.

Idk man, there’s a line where I can tolerate bad behavior from a friend and it falls way before “forcing a flight attendant to grab your dick.” Dude’s a piece of shit and deserves all the criticism he gets and should be ostracized from the business. and his buddies kissing his ass deserve to be clowned on.

And let's look at Jericho who immediately said "FORGIVEN!" about Tommy Dreamer, but also got pissed and threatened to make sure that Shotzi would never be in AEW because she posted a freaking gif. Jericho's one of the greatest wrestlers ever, has reinvented himself numerous times, but he is a big carny with thin skin.

And JD McDon'tGoogleMe, well nuff said.

[UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm]

i do find it interesting that everyone has a blind spot with flair. he is one of the all time greats no doubt about it and sure it is disappointing but i can't say i'm surprised?

like you could take my fav and if they defended flair, i wouldn't be shocked. maybe there's a real "oh that was back in the day" sentiment with the guys and gals back there but it isn't like you get people ranting and raving about how much they love jimmy snuka or other people nowadays. very peculiar, find it sad but very fascinating

[humanoid33]

Dec 2, 2023 4:59:27 GMT -5 THE FVNKER said:

I already know the mob is coming for my head on this one, but if this is truly a place for discussion then all sides deserve equal volume.

Let me get these out of the way.

- I don't know Ric Flair personally. Never worked with him, never met him, never seen him in real life.
- I don't condone the stuff he is alleged to have done. It's not ok and my heart goes out to anyone he is said to have affected.
- How you, or anyone else feels about what Ric did is valid and fair and I'm not entitled to take that from you or anyone else.

But reading post after post after post of people not only holding Ric's past against him it's bled into people shitting on his friends for supporting him?

Has it occurred to anyone that his friends/peers just like the guy? Surely you guys have people in your life who have some pretty messed up pasts who you still love and talk to. Hell, I've done things I wish I never did. There's probably people in this thread itself who've done worse things than what Ric did. Some of these guys (Austin being the one in my mind) have probably had conversations with Ric about this stuff and might know more about how Ric feels than you guys do.

Personally I don't really care and it doesn't affect me or my family so I have no vested interest in what Ric Flair does or doesn't do, nor what a group of people on a wrestling forum think about him but I'm also the type of person who stands on what they believe and the toxic groupthink and piggybacking of weird negativity not only in this thread but others is lame to me.

I guess I just hate how certain people in public view have to endure so much shit-talking just because they're on TV. Some deserve it but sometimes it's just like, "uncle". What kind of progressive conversation is anyone going to have if we just keep posting screens of his literal friends supporting him and people on here just flatly being like "Wait what how come you don't hate this man you've known for years on end just like I do even though I don't know shit about him or the situation".

Idk. Maybe I'm the weird one. Sorry if this rubs anyone the wrong way, that's not my intention. I've been in a position not that long ago where a private area of my life (a messy divorce, don't jump to conclusions) became a public matter, so I've seen first hand how hurtful the comments of others can be.

I think your opinion is valid and I would honestly agree with you, if it was directed towards anyone but Ric Flair. The wrestling industry has continuously bailed this guy out of various financial messes, and turned a blind eye to his antics outside the ring for decades. The last thing I want to see are people from the industry putting on blinders for him again. This is not someone that has learned from their mistakes, Ric Flair continues to be the same asshole he was in the 80's, I have zero sympathy for him.

[Allie Kitsune]

Dec 2, 2023 8:20:16 GMT -5 UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm said:

i do find it interesting that everyone has a blind spot with flair. he is one of the all time greats no doubt about it and sure it is disappointing but i can't say i'm surprised?

like you could take my fav and if they defended flair, i wouldn't be shocked. maybe there's a real "oh that was back in the day" sentiment with the guys and gals back there but it isn't like you get people ranting and raving about how much they love jimmy snuka or other people nowadays. very peculiar, find it sad but very fascinating

It's always easy to get rid of the creeps and/or crooks who were never anyone's favorite (Joey Ryan, Marty Scurll, etc...), and not have a blind spot for murderers (Snuka, Benoit), but some people (even other wrestlers) have a hard time letting go of their favorites.

And on some level I understand it, but on another, they have to be aware of how it makes them look to others. Especially to others who want to see the business cleaned up.

[Bo Rida]

I can understand wrestlers being defensive, they have a more complete picture of a person, they see a lot more of the positives, know the hardships they've faced etc. They also have the dregs of society trolling and insulting them or their colleagues constantly, often led by irrational rants of cult figures.

What isn't so understandable is the tone deafness of the public defence. It's not the dirtsheets and legit criticism shouldn't be ignored. This applies double if you've previously spoken out about the kind of actions you're now defending.

[lucaslawless]

Well, this is something thats been blown entirely out of proportion. I wouldnt have cut a thing and ran with it.

[Mr Mario Mario]

Dec 2, 2023 5:18:38 GMT -5 "American Cream" Dusty Loads said:

Dec 2, 2023 4:59:27 GMT -5 THE FVNKER said:

I already know the mob is coming for my head on this one, but if this is truly a place for discussion then all sides deserve equal volume.

Let me get these out of the way.

- I don't know Ric Flair personally. Never worked with him, never met him, never seen him in real life.
- I don't condone the stuff he is alleged to have done. It's not ok and my heart goes out to anyone he is said to have affected.
- How you, or anyone else feels about what Ric did is valid and fair and I'm not entitled to take that from you or anyone else.

But reading post after post after post of people not only holding Ric's past against him it's bled into people shitting on his friends for supporting him?

Has it occurred to anyone that his friends/peers just like the guy? Surely you guys have people in your life who have some pretty messed up pasts who you still love and talk to. Hell, I've done things I wish I never did. There's probably people in this thread itself who've done worse things than what Ric did. Some of these guys (Austin being the one in my mind) have probably had conversations with Ric about this stuff and might know more about how Ric feels than you guys do.

Personally I don't really care and it doesn't affect me or my family so I have no vested interest in what Ric Flair does or doesn't do, nor what a group of people on a wrestling forum think about him but I'm also the type of person who stands on what they believe and the toxic groupthink and piggybacking of weird negativity not only in this thread but others is lame to me.

I guess I just hate how certain people in public view have to endure so much shit-talking just because they're on TV. Some deserve it but sometimes it's just like, "uncle". What kind of progressive conversation is anyone going to have if we just keep posting screens of his literal friends supporting him and people on here just flatly being like "Wait what how come you don't hate this man you've known for years on end just like I do even though I don't know shit about him or the situation".

Idk. Maybe I'm the weird one. Sorry if this rubs anyone the wrong way, that's not my intention. I've been in a position not that long ago where a private area of my life (a messy divorce, don't jump to conclusions) became a public matter, so I've seen first hand how hurtful the comments of others can be.

Idk man, there’s a line where I can tolerate bad behavior from a friend and it falls way before “forcing a flight attendant to grab your dick.” Dude’s a piece of shit and deserves all the criticism he gets and should be ostracized from the business. and his buddies kissing his ass deserve to be clowned on.

No, apparently we should not criticise the creepy old sexual assaulter who has constantly shown over decades an unwillingness to change or the people around his who enable his behaviour because he’s on TV and we might hurt his feelings

[neilc]

From listening to Bully Ray, Mark Henry and Tommy Dreamer on Busted Open, the hardest thing for any wrestler to do is to criticize another wrestler, no matter what horrible things they've done or how washed they might look in the ring. Maybe because they want to get the same consideration.

["Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay]

Dec 2, 2023 4:59:27 GMT -5 THE FVNKER said:

I already know the mob is coming for my head on this one, but if this is truly a place for discussion then all sides deserve equal volume.

Let me get these out of the way.

- I don't know Ric Flair personally. Never worked with him, never met him, never seen him in real life.
- I don't condone the stuff he is alleged to have done. It's not ok and my heart goes out to anyone he is said to have affected.
- How you, or anyone else feels about what Ric did is valid and fair and I'm not entitled to take that from you or anyone else.

But reading post after post after post of people not only holding Ric's past against him it's bled into people shitting on his friends for supporting him?

Has it occurred to anyone that his friends/peers just like the guy? Surely you guys have people in your life who have some pretty messed up pasts who you still love and talk to. Hell, I've done things I wish I never did. There's probably people in this thread itself who've done worse things than what Ric did. Some of these guys (Austin being the one in my mind) have probably had conversations with Ric about this stuff and might know more about how Ric feels than you guys do.

Personally I don't really care and it doesn't affect me or my family so I have no vested interest in what Ric Flair does or doesn't do, nor what a group of people on a wrestling forum think about him but I'm also the type of person who stands on what they believe and the toxic groupthink and piggybacking of weird negativity not only in this thread but others is lame to me.

I guess I just hate how certain people in public view have to endure so much shit-talking just because they're on TV. Some deserve it but sometimes it's just like, "uncle". What kind of progressive conversation is anyone going to have if we just keep posting screens of his literal friends supporting him and people on here just flatly being like "Wait what how come you don't hate this man you've known for years on end just like I do even though I don't know shit about him or the situation".

Idk. Maybe I'm the weird one. Sorry if this rubs anyone the wrong way, that's not my intention. I've been in a position not that long ago where a private area of my life (a messy divorce, don't jump to conclusions) became a public matter, so I've seen first hand how hurtful the comments of others can be.

I am happy to respond to this in good faith - but I feel like you are equating things that are not equivalent

The people I know who have done the things that Ric Flair have are not being publicly platformed and paid hundreds of thousands of dollars. That is the difference

I am a huge believer in restorative justice. I don't think prison time helps people. If you go to the Sunny thread, you will find that I have found people's desire to come for her head distasteful even though unlike Flair, she actually killed someone

I don't necessarily think Flair should be in prison. But he faced zero consequences for the plane ride situation at the time, and when it was on DSOTR years later the consequence was 'we'll sign you later when the heat dies down.'

I am not against Flair having fun. But he can have fun without being on TV.

I am not against wrestlers having a point of view about his actions and still being his friend. People do not become LESS like Flair by being isolated from people. But those wrestlers are all publicly being intellectually dishonest. There is no way they don't know what Flair is accused of. Some of them were on the same flight. And they all just talk about 'uhhh people just hate Flair being Flair.'

And it is especially tart coming from AEW when Tony got all the cool points for banning Hogan - who, and I cannot believe I am saying this, said a bunch of heinous shit in private during a consensual sexual encounter rather than killing anyone or assaulting anyone - because Hogan was already unpopular and being ostracised. Flair, who was always more actually liked than Hogan and respected by the industry, gets a pass.

If Flair disappeared from the public eye and learned and grew and showed a shred of actual remorse, maybe I would feel just a bit differently.

[Final Countdown Jones]

Dec 2, 2023 4:59:27 GMT -5 THE FVNKER said:

I already know the mob is coming for my head on this one, but if this is truly a place for discussion then all sides deserve equal volume.

Let me get these out of the way.

- I don't know Ric Flair personally. Never worked with him, never met him, never seen him in real life.
- I don't condone the stuff he is alleged to have done. It's not ok and my heart goes out to anyone he is said to have affected.
- How you, or anyone else feels about what Ric did is valid and fair and I'm not entitled to take that from you or anyone else.

But reading post after post after post of people not only holding Ric's past against him it's bled into people shitting on his friends for supporting him?

Has it occurred to anyone that his friends/peers just like the guy? Surely you guys have people in your life who have some pretty messed up pasts who you still love and talk to. Hell, I've done things I wish I never did. There's probably people in this thread itself who've done worse things than what Ric did. Some of these guys (Austin being the one in my mind) have probably had conversations with Ric about this stuff and might know more about how Ric feels than you guys do.

Personally I don't really care and it doesn't affect me or my family so I have no vested interest in what Ric Flair does or doesn't do, nor what a group of people on a wrestling forum think about him but I'm also the type of person who stands on what they believe and the toxic groupthink and piggybacking of weird negativity not only in this thread but others is lame to me.

I guess I just hate how certain people in public view have to endure so much shit-talking just because they're on TV. Some deserve it but sometimes it's just like, "uncle". What kind of progressive conversation is anyone going to have if we just keep posting screens of his literal friends supporting him and people on here just flatly being like "Wait what how come you don't hate this man you've known for years on end just like I do even though I don't know shit about him or the situation".

Idk. Maybe I'm the weird one. Sorry if this rubs anyone the wrong way, that's not my intention. I've been in a position not that long ago where a private area of my life (a messy divorce, don't jump to conclusions) became a public matter, so I've seen first hand how hurtful the comments of others can be.

The love and support from his friends can come without enabling him, though. The lack of care for how the allegations against him intersect with his comments is where this isn't relaly just magically "Well he's their friend". If somebody near and dear to me did the things Ric is accused of, at absolute minimum I would want them to be able to accept the wrongness there, do somethign about it, get some kind of help. Ric, as far as any public details can attest, has done none of that. He is just out here in the ring doing his shit.

This is not private support of the guy. This is loud, public insistence that the people who have issues with him being around given the direct and corroborated claims of sexual harassment against him should be ignored. That they're few and insignificant and just looking to be haters. That's not healthy to tell someone you care about and as a statement to be willing to put out there publicly it's a frankly atrocious one I think people are right to have issue with. To be willing to put that out into the world is a pretty loud signal and it's one deserving of criticism, not because they're sticking by a friend, but for the very very specific things they're saying that I feel you might be underselling with this post a little bit.

[dpg]

They like Flair and respect his work, so will forgive him far more than they would someone they didn't like or is less well known.

[Mecca]

Dec 2, 2023 11:38:08 GMT -5 "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay said:

Dec 2, 2023 4:59:27 GMT -5 THE FVNKER said:

I already know the mob is coming for my head on this one, but if this is truly a place for discussion then all sides deserve equal volume.

Let me get these out of the way.

- I don't know Ric Flair personally. Never worked with him, never met him, never seen him in real life.
- I don't condone the stuff he is alleged to have done. It's not ok and my heart goes out to anyone he is said to have affected.
- How you, or anyone else feels about what Ric did is valid and fair and I'm not entitled to take that from you or anyone else.

But reading post after post after post of people not only holding Ric's past against him it's bled into people shitting on his friends for supporting him?

Has it occurred to anyone that his friends/peers just like the guy? Surely you guys have people in your life who have some pretty messed up pasts who you still love and talk to. Hell, I've done things I wish I never did. There's probably people in this thread itself who've done worse things than what Ric did. Some of these guys (Austin being the one in my mind) have probably had conversations with Ric about this stuff and might know more about how Ric feels than you guys do.

Personally I don't really care and it doesn't affect me or my family so I have no vested interest in what Ric Flair does or doesn't do, nor what a group of people on a wrestling forum think about him but I'm also the type of person who stands on what they believe and the toxic groupthink and piggybacking of weird negativity not only in this thread but others is lame to me.

I guess I just hate how certain people in public view have to endure so much shit-talking just because they're on TV. Some deserve it but sometimes it's just like, "uncle". What kind of progressive conversation is anyone going to have if we just keep posting screens of his literal friends supporting him and people on here just flatly being like "Wait what how come you don't hate this man you've known for years on end just like I do even though I don't know shit about him or the situation".

Idk. Maybe I'm the weird one. Sorry if this rubs anyone the wrong way, that's not my intention. I've been in a position not that long ago where a private area of my life (a messy divorce, don't jump to conclusions) became a public matter, so I've seen first hand how hurtful the comments of others can be.

I am happy to respond to this in good faith - but I feel like you are equating things that are not equivalent

The people I know who have done the things that Ric Flair have are not being publicly platformed and paid hundreds of thousands of dollars. That is the difference

I am a huge believer in restorative justice. I don't think prison time helps people. If you go to the Sunny thread, you will find that I have found people's desire to come for her head distasteful even though unlike Flair, she actually killed someone

I don't necessarily think Flair should be in prison. But he faced zero consequences for the plane ride situation at the time, and when it was on DSOTR years later the consequence was 'we'll sign you later when the heat dies down.'

I am not against Flair having fun. But he can have fun without being on TV.

I am not against wrestlers having a point of view about his actions and still being his friend. People do not become LESS like Flair by being isolated from people. But those wrestlers are all publicly being intellectually dishonest. There is no way they don't know what Flair is accused of. Some of them were on the same flight. And they all just talk about 'uhhh people just hate Flair being Flair.'

And it is especially tart coming from AEW when Tony got all the cool points for banning Hogan - who, and I cannot believe I am saying this, said a bunch of heinous shit in private during a consensual sexual encounter rather than killing anyone or assaulting anyone - because Hogan was already unpopular and being ostracised. Flair, who was always more actually liked than Hogan and respected by the industry, gets a pass.

If Flair disappeared from the public eye and learned and grew and showed a shred of actual remorse, maybe I would feel just a bit differently.

Ok don't think I'm being a jerk here but a guy who did things Flair has done was elected President...

["Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik]

Dec 2, 2023 13:09:46 GMT -5 Mecca said:

Dec 2, 2023 11:38:08 GMT -5 "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay said:

I am happy to respond to this in good faith - but I feel like you are equating things that are not equivalent

The people I know who have done the things that Ric Flair have are not being publicly platformed and paid hundreds of thousands of dollars. That is the difference

I am a huge believer in restorative justice. I don't think prison time helps people. If you go to the Sunny thread, you will find that I have found people's desire to come for her head distasteful even though unlike Flair, she actually killed someone

I don't necessarily think Flair should be in prison. But he faced zero consequences for the plane ride situation at the time, and when it was on DSOTR years later the consequence was 'we'll sign you later when the heat dies down.'

I am not against Flair having fun. But he can have fun without being on TV.

I am not against wrestlers having a point of view about his actions and still being his friend. People do not become LESS like Flair by being isolated from people. But those wrestlers are all publicly being intellectually dishonest. There is no way they don't know what Flair is accused of. Some of them were on the same flight. And they all just talk about 'uhhh people just hate Flair being Flair.'

And it is especially tart coming from AEW when Tony got all the cool points for banning Hogan - who, and I cannot believe I am saying this, said a bunch of heinous shit in private during a consensual sexual encounter rather than killing anyone or assaulting anyone - because Hogan was already unpopular and being ostracised. Flair, who was always more actually liked than Hogan and respected by the industry, gets a pass.

If Flair disappeared from the public eye and learned and grew and showed a shred of actual remorse, maybe I would feel just a bit differently.

Ok don't think I'm being a jerk here but a guy who did things Flair has done was elected President...

I mean so was Flair:

[The Captain]

There's a lot of hero worship with Flair and I think a lot of wrestlers have a hard time reconciling Ric Flair the wrestler with the things Richard Fliehr the person has allegedly done. That and I do think there's a lot of people who want to give him a pass after all his health problems the last few years.

The only one I'm genuinely surprised about coming to his defense is Ryan Nemeth considering how great he's otherwise been in calling out the scummier elements in wrestling and how it treats women.

[tirtefaa]

Dec 2, 2023 8:20:16 GMT -5 UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm said:

i do find it interesting that everyone has a blind spot with flair. he is one of the all time greats no doubt about it and sure it is disappointing but i can't say i'm surprised?

Not that I'm defending the guy, but Hulk Hogan was raked over the coals for backstage politics, getting his friends hired and burying people he didn't like, but those are all things someone like Flair did as well. People really would hand wave anything as long as someone has workrate. Even Dave Meltzer for years would take Flair's side on any situation that was happening, simply because he was a mark for the guy.

[Kalmia]

Wrestlers ignoring the stuff Flair has done and blaming dirtsheets/fans for stirring up trouble and being oversensitive is why wrestling will never clean up its act and that's so depressing.

[Dub H]

Dec 2, 2023 13:32:26 GMT -5 tirtefaa said:

Dec 2, 2023 8:20:16 GMT -5 UN PLOMBIER NIGHTMARE #blm said:

i do find it interesting that everyone has a blind spot with flair. he is one of the all time greats no doubt about it and sure it is disappointing but i can't say i'm surprised?

Not that I'm defending the guy, but Hulk Hogan was raked over the coals for backstage politics, getting his friends hired and burying people he didn't like, but those are all things someone like Flair did as well. People really would hand wave anything as long as someone has workrate. Even Dave Meltzer for years would take Flair's side on any situation that was happening, simply because he was a mark for the guy.

Probably a combination of Ric Flair being the first "Wrestler's Wrestler" and someone VERY charismatic and approachable irl.

[Alyce: Old Media Enthusiast]

Dec 2, 2023 11:06:54 GMT -5 neilc said:

From listening to Bully Ray, Mark Henry and Tommy Dreamer on Busted Open, the hardest thing for any wrestler to do is to criticize another wrestler, no matter what horrible things they've done or how washed they might look in the ring. Maybe because they want to get the same consideration.

Maybe Tommy shouldn't be talking about Ric Flair after last time