|
Post by "American Cream" Dusty Loads on Jan 22, 2024 5:48:27 GMT -5
I like when wrestling pretends it’s a real sport so I like the rankings. I could see how it could make things needlessly complicated though.
|
|
clifford
King Koopa
Shingo Takagi stan
Posts: 10,679
|
Post by clifford on Jan 22, 2024 6:45:54 GMT -5
Cool. Maybe they've learned from the shortcomings of the previous system and will adjust them accordingly.
AEW pushing the sports aspect of wrestling has almost always been a good thing for them and their product.
|
|
|
Post by raymondo316 on Jan 22, 2024 7:39:59 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Tea & Crumpets on Jan 22, 2024 7:52:48 GMT -5
I think people need to remember that rankings are just another story tool and they're just as worked as any other system in wrestling. AEW should kinda acknowledge that as well and make it clear that wins are weighted, so beating a wrestler ranked no.2 means more than winning five matches against wrestlers that always lose. Maybe even establish a rankings committee who have the job of deciding the rankings each week instead of it being purely scientific or mathematical. You can integrate it into some of the stories, too. Stokely could be rejected as Kris’ manager and get his way to the Rankings Committee because of his experience as part of the ROH Board of Directors and basically fudge Kris a way to a title shot over Willow and build more tension between the two, as one example. This is exactly the sort of 'sports-related' angles I feel like wrestling's always been missing and would love to see. Always liked the idea of a kayfabe rank system but can't ever remember it working, because it always seems to weirdly go too 'legit' in its efforts rather than remember to use it as a vehicle for angles. But then I'd also like to see them maybe reduce some of the commentators and move them instead to a judges' panel so you can do points-victories for time limit draws etc. (which is an incredibly easy way to book a win that doesn't hurt someone, or provides a new angle for heat/a babyface feeling controversially robbed, look how many controversial judges' calls you get in UFC and boxing). I'd also book a match-fixing angle where it turns out some wealthy manager/behind-the-scenes investor authority figure heel has been paying lowercarders to lose to boost his prospects' record, or bribing referees- you could use the referee bribing to even cover for any botches with finishes too- if Bryce counts 2 instead of 3 expecting the guy to kick out, have it later revealed he took a bribe to try help one guy out. I appreciate that booking kayfabe match-fixing in a product that's already fixed is a bit weird and in danger of going Russo, but I think if done right it'd work- it's not "he rejected the script" nonsense it's working actual sporting controversies into wrestling stories. I may have thought too much before now about sports-based-presentation...
|
|
Kalmia
King Koopa
Happy to be here
Posts: 11,656
Member is Online
|
Post by Kalmia on Jan 22, 2024 8:43:01 GMT -5
Punk just made my enemies list.
|
|
|
Post by eJm on Jan 22, 2024 8:46:02 GMT -5
This feels weirder because, if you look at Punk’s first run to the title, he’d have a valid reason to actually challenge with his win/loss record. It’d be like a football player signing to a team that plays with a playmaker, telling the manager that the position shouldn’t exist anymore and then playing in that position anyway.
|
|
Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,083
|
Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 22, 2024 9:06:43 GMT -5
OK, but what about which wrestler has the highest "Suplexes over Expected For" percentage over a 4 month period?
Or the highest Adjusted Value over Replacement Wrestler (with Scorpio Sky being the "Replacement Wrestler" the initial metric will be based off of, and adjusted over time)?
|
|
|
Post by xxshoyuweeniexx on Jan 22, 2024 9:17:23 GMT -5
To be fair to Phil, the rankings weren’t making a lot of sense like months before Tony got rid of them, and all the interim championship stuff didn’t help either. I feel like it was less like “I’m CM Punk get rid of this thing” and more this stuff needs to make more sense. Then Brawl Out happened and Tony probably just said f*** it.
|
|
Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,083
|
Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 22, 2024 9:40:38 GMT -5
I think this is where things get iffy. If you introduce rankings/numbers into things, there will be a large part of the fan base that intensely keeps track of it and are upset when things don't always add up Which is a mistake, I think. It's still professional wrestling. I doubt Khan is going to start using the Elo rating system or anything. Although maybe he should and we should have a segment every week going through the calculations. Preferably hosted by Scott Steiner. Doing them weekly still isn't a great idea if the champion isn't going to defend once a week. Especially if only #1 gets title shots. Because if there isn't a defense every week, you'll still end up with times where someone is #1 and still doesn't get a shot because someone else is #1 a week later.
|
|
Dub H
Crow T. Robot
Captain Pixel: the Game Master
I ❤ Aniki
Posts: 47,833
Member is Online
|
Post by Dub H on Jan 22, 2024 9:54:43 GMT -5
More reasons to dislike CM Punk.And that TK was in fact, Punk's Bitch
|
|
Zone Was Wrong
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Currently living off the high that AEW brings every Wednesday and Friday
Posts: 16,077
Member is Online
|
Post by Zone Was Wrong on Jan 22, 2024 10:10:19 GMT -5
Honestly loved the ranking and I'm happy they're back. Just don't have things like FTR as #1 in the rankings for months on end without a single title shot and actually have rankings for every title.
|
|
|
Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Jan 22, 2024 10:13:52 GMT -5
More reasons to dislike CM Punk.And that TK was in fact, Punk's Bitch This honestly reeks of somebody just trying to put the blame solely on Punk because he's no longer there. I'm pretty sure others didn't like the ranking system either and folks here and in other portions of the internet were pointing out some of the inconsistencies at the same time. I hope they get it right this time, but CM Punk is not responsible for every bad thing that's ever happened in AEW.
|
|
Kalmia
King Koopa
Happy to be here
Posts: 11,656
Member is Online
|
Post by Kalmia on Jan 22, 2024 10:35:52 GMT -5
Which is a mistake, I think. It's still professional wrestling. I doubt Khan is going to start using the Elo rating system or anything. Although maybe he should and we should have a segment every week going through the calculations. Preferably hosted by Scott Steiner. Doing them weekly still isn't a great idea if the champion isn't going to defend once a week. Especially if only #1 gets title shots. Because if there isn't a defense every week, you'll still end up with times where someone is #1 and still doesn't get a shot because someone else is #1 a week later. There's a few ways around it. Say the PPV is on March 1st, they could say whoever is no.1 on Feb 1st gets the spot. Or make a rule that someone has to be no.1 for a certain number of weeks. But ultimately, the rankings are worked. AEW can just keep someone at no.1 until they get the shot. There's no need for the rankings to change that frequently unless a story calls.for it.
|
|
|
Post by Denny Zen on Jan 22, 2024 10:37:13 GMT -5
At the end of the day, the single most prominent criticism of AEW I've seen over the last 2ish years is that it has lost its identity and shied away from the things that made it unique in favor of a WWE or NJPW lite presentation (depending on who you talk to, or which argument is convenient at a particular time).
For better or worse, the rankings are something that made AEW stand out as unique in its early days and I'm glad to see them back. I just hope that Tony actually delegates some of the responsibility for keeping track of the rankings and making sure the booking is cohesive, because that really is way too much for one person to try and do, especially with how large AEW's roster is now, and especially if they also include the part-time/special appearance guys like Suzuki and Vikingo in the rankings.
|
|
dbsot
Bubba Ho-Tep
Posts: 588
|
Post by dbsot on Jan 22, 2024 10:38:58 GMT -5
More reasons to dislike CM Punk.And that TK was in fact, Punk's Bitch This honestly reeks of somebody just trying to put the blame solely on Punk because he's no longer there. I'm pretty sure others didn't like the ranking system either and folks here and in other portions of the internet were pointing out some of the inconsistencies at the same time. I hope they get it right this time, but CM Punk is not responsible for every bad thing that's ever happened in AEW. He isn't responsible for every bad thing, that is unfair to Punk. However, a bunch of things that made AEW an alternative did start to fall to the wayside once Punk joined. It has also been made pretty clear that Punk had strong influence over stuff backstage and TK's decisions. I don't think it is surprising that Punk would push to get rid of the rankings. With that said, the rankings had flaws and need a better implementation. I disagree with scrapping them all together. There just needs to be more details about how the rankings work. A points system and weighted wins would help tremendously.
|
|
Allie Kitsune
Crow T. Robot
Always Feelin' Foxy.
Celestial Princess in Exile.
Posts: 46,083
|
Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 22, 2024 10:41:23 GMT -5
Doing them weekly still isn't a great idea if the champion isn't going to defend once a week. Especially if only #1 gets title shots. Because if there isn't a defense every week, you'll still end up with times where someone is #1 and still doesn't get a shot because someone else is #1 a week later. There's a few ways around it. Say the PPV is on March 1st, they could say whoever is no.1 on Feb 1st gets the spot. Or make a rule that someone has to be no.1 for a certain number of weeks. But ultimately, the rankings are worked. AEW can just keep someone at no.1 until they get the shot. There's no need for the rankings to change that frequently unless a story calls.for it. TK's a stats nerd, he's likely going to want everything to have followable math behind it.
|
|
|
Post by Fade is a CodyCryBaby on Jan 22, 2024 11:19:41 GMT -5
Yeah, I’d say Phil was right if he was advocating to get rid of it at the time he did. Lot of people online had been saying it. But like dbsot said, AEW did kind of seem to lose its way (imo) more into punks run, so hey, maybe this is a nice return to vision for Tony or whatever.
|
|
|
Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 22, 2024 11:56:00 GMT -5
There was never a problem with Dark/Elevation influencing the rankings. People get a winning streak on Dark/Elevation and then lose on Dynamite. The person beating them is now a higher ranked person despite having less matches. It's boxing. I watched so much Friday Night Fights and had Teddy Atlas explain it nearly every week. Main Event. Two Undefeated Fighters or an undefeated guy versus someone with one or two losses. Teddy says one undefeated dude has been padding his stat with 'lesser competition' and now that they're on TV, they're having to step up their competition in order to ever deserve a title shot (sometimes the dude with the inflated record was getting a title match for some random belt and Teddy was calling how poorly it would go for them...and he was usually right). If AEW wanted a "realism" set-up...they had it. FTR upset they weren't getting a title shot despite their rankings? Go ask Manny Pacquiao about Floyd Mayweather. Them NOT fighting was the Event of the year in 2010 and they didn't fight until 2015. Realism isn't always fun. That's the problem. They had a realistic set-up, but people complained because it's a staged business so, in people's eyes, it made even less sense to not give FTR a match although in reality the 'best' quite often get pushed off because the champ sees a way to make more money against easier competition on a hot streak of popularity (Oh, hi Hook/Samoa Joe match that allowed Joe to look like an unstoppable juggernaut). very fair/good point. I think the issue more or less became that aside from things like Dante Martin getting a shot at Miro (since they clearly value Dante a lot) they hyped it up as a young guy getting a chance against tougher competition, but then mainly with things like the tag titles (where there wasn't as much youth at the time), it became more justification for match ups, and you had FTR taking the piss out of it on social media. I always felt the rankings were fine and were more useful for the TNT title or for tv title defenses, but they just became inconsistent with it
|
|
|
Post by kingoftheindies on Jan 22, 2024 12:14:21 GMT -5
This honestly reeks of somebody just trying to put the blame solely on Punk because he's no longer there. I'm pretty sure others didn't like the ranking system either and folks here and in other portions of the internet were pointing out some of the inconsistencies at the same time. I hope they get it right this time, but CM Punk is not responsible for every bad thing that's ever happened in AEW. He isn't responsible for every bad thing, that is unfair to Punk. However, a bunch of things that made AEW an alternative did start to fall to the wayside once Punk joined. It has also been made pretty clear that Punk had strong influence over stuff backstage and TK's decisions. I don't think it is surprising that Punk would push to get rid of the rankings. With that said, the rankings had flaws and need a better implementation. I disagree with scrapping them all together. There just needs to be more details about how the rankings work. A points system and weighted wins would help tremendously. I think AEW fell into a weird spot too where they clearly had to update the production and presentation of the show, as well as how things ran behind the scenes and that caused some issues as well.
|
|
|
Post by Tea & Crumpets on Jan 22, 2024 12:21:40 GMT -5
OK, but what about which wrestler has the highest "Suplexes over Expected For" percentage over a 4 month period? Or the highest Adjusted Value over Replacement Wrestler (with Scorpio Sky being the "Replacement Wrestler" the initial metric will be based off of, and adjusted over time)? They should honestly do this level of bullshit that is never actually quantified anywhere, and introduce/repackage someone as a sports scientist manager/member of the AEW Analytics Committee (The Russo in me wants to call it the Analytics & Statistics Squad) xP or xS for Expected Pins/Submissions based on the likelihood of the preceding move getting the win, so suddenly a guy wins with a mid match powerslam and massively outperforms his xP which jumps him way up the rankings. Guys start trying to win more with random moves to boost their scores, lets you get away from heavily telegraphed finishes. Track number of 1-counts and 2-counts achieved vs conceded, submissions secured/conceded/escaped/rope-breaks per match as some vague bollocks to show how someone's a wrestler good at controlling the match and some Expected calculation based on the move beforehand, Pinfall Creating Actions etc, never explain any actual math behind what these stats mean for the rankings just use it to have some guys throwing a fit that they should be ranked higher, managers using it to scout guys for their stable, 2 guys get in a feud because "You might be winning all the time but I have better underlying stats which means I'm actually better even though I lose more". Soccer is RIFE with armchair analyst crap like this, use it.
|
|