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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Feb 26, 2024 8:50:59 GMT -5
I still don’t understand why Bryan is a heel in AEW, especially when they’re desperately hurting at the moment for true babyfaces, but whatever. Nobody in AEW wants to be a babyface. Wrestlers generally don't want to be babyfaces. Heels get to do all the interesting shit. It's infuriating, and depressing, and it's part of why these days half the babyfaces in wrestling are just heels doing heel shit that get cheered. Danielson is yet another example of this, he would rather be a heel.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 26, 2024 8:53:23 GMT -5
I still don’t understand why Bryan is a heel in AEW, especially when they’re desperately hurting at the moment for true babyfaces, but whatever. Nobody in AEW wants to be a babyface. Wrestlers generally don't want to be babyfaces. Heels get to do all the interesting shit. It's infuriating, and depressing, and it's part of why these days half the babyfaces in wrestling are just heels doing heel shit that get cheered. Danielson is yet another example of this, he would rather be a heel. Eddie Kingston might be one of the purest babyfaces in wrestling and it's exactly WHY Danielson is heel for this feud. I could make quite a few AEW wrestlers who are absolutely fine with and super over being pure babyfaces, Willow Nightingale maybe the purest of them all so you watch your mouth
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Feb 26, 2024 9:11:16 GMT -5
Nobody in AEW wants to be a babyface. Wrestlers generally don't want to be babyfaces. Heels get to do all the interesting shit. It's infuriating, and depressing, and it's part of why these days half the babyfaces in wrestling are just heels doing heel shit that get cheered. Danielson is yet another example of this, he would rather be a heel. Eddie Kingston might be one of the purest babyfaces in wrestling and it's exactly WHY Danielson is heel for this feud. I could make quite a few AEW wrestlers who are absolutely fine with and super over being pure babyfaces, Willow Nightingale maybe the purest of them all so you watch your mouth Yeah this is what I get for being flippant to amuse myself, because Eddie and Willow are exceptions - and it's definitely not as bad in AEW as it was in the early days. But it's more a wrestling-wide problem than anything
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Post by Urn Anderson on Feb 26, 2024 9:31:07 GMT -5
The BCC are basically what pro wrestlers would logically be if heel/face alignments weren't such an established trope.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Feb 26, 2024 9:32:50 GMT -5
Eddie Kingston might be one of the purest babyfaces in wrestling and it's exactly WHY Danielson is heel for this feud. I could make quite a few AEW wrestlers who are absolutely fine with and super over being pure babyfaces, Willow Nightingale maybe the purest of them all so you watch your mouth Yeah this is what I get for being flippant to amuse myself, because Eddie and Willow are exceptions - and it's definitely not as bad in AEW as it was in the early days. But it's more a wrestling-wide problem than anything Part of that (as a general wrestling-wide thing), I think, is that generally (not always, but generally) babyfaces need to be more grounded and down to earth, when we're more in the theater kid/comic fan era of wrestling where a lot of talent wants to be more over-the-top about their persona.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Feb 26, 2024 9:40:52 GMT -5
Yeah this is what I get for being flippant to amuse myself, because Eddie and Willow are exceptions - and it's definitely not as bad in AEW as it was in the early days. But it's more a wrestling-wide problem than anything Part of that (as a general wrestling-wide thing), I think, is that generally (not always, but generally) babyfaces need to be more grounded and down to earth, when we're more in the theater kid/comic fan era of wrestling where a lot of talent wants to be more over-the-top about their persona. Hence why I always champion the over-the-top babyfaces like Visionary Seth, Big Match Cena, prime Dusty, surfer Sting, etc. that older fans sometimes find “annoying” but they still draw because they hold your attention.
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Post by Cyno on Feb 26, 2024 11:04:25 GMT -5
I don't think there's a face problem in the women's division. You've got a lot of strong faces between Willow, Statlander, and Deonna. I think Ruby getting away from Saraya is going to do a lot for her, too. Always thought she makes a much better face.
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Zone Was Wrong
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Feb 26, 2024 11:08:13 GMT -5
Part of that (as a general wrestling-wide thing), I think, is that generally (not always, but generally) babyfaces need to be more grounded and down to earth, when we're more in the theater kid/comic fan era of wrestling where a lot of talent wants to be more over-the-top about their persona. Hence why I always champion the over-the-top babyfaces like Visionary Seth, Big Match Cena, prime Dusty, surfer Sting, etc. that older fans sometimes find “annoying” but they still draw because they hold your attention. Sometimes just comes down to when you started watching wrestling and personal preferences I think. Started watching wrestling during peak NWO vs Sting and Crow Sting was just the coolest dude at the time and he pretty much molded what I prefer in a babyface in wrestling. Love me a good anti-hero babyface that has some edge to him.
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Post by Some Guy on Feb 26, 2024 11:14:11 GMT -5
Nobody in AEW wants to be a babyface. Wrestlers generally don't want to be babyfaces. Heels get to do all the interesting shit. It's infuriating, and depressing, and it's part of why these days half the babyfaces in wrestling are just heels doing heel shit that get cheered. Danielson is yet another example of this, he would rather be a heel. Eddie Kingston might be one of the purest babyfaces in wrestling and it's exactly WHY Danielson is heel for this feud. I could make quite a few AEW wrestlers who are absolutely fine with and super over being pure babyfaces, Willow Nightingale maybe the purest of them all so you watch your mouth There are plenty of faces around that are basically locked in faces now/going forward (Eddie, Orange Cassidy, Mark Briscoe) and then you have people like Dante Martin who are hard to just hate because they have the babiest face to ever exist.
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Post by Cyno on Feb 26, 2024 11:15:41 GMT -5
Hence why I always champion the over-the-top babyfaces like Visionary Seth, Big Match Cena, prime Dusty, surfer Sting, etc. that older fans sometimes find “annoying” but they still draw because they hold your attention. Sometimes just comes down to when you started watching wrestling and personal preferences I think. Started watching wrestling during peak NWO vs Sting and Crow Sting was just the coolest dude at the time and he pretty much molded what I prefer in a babyface in wrestling. Love me a good anti-hero babyface that has some edge to him. Good point. I didn't really get into wrestling until I was a teenager. So the top faces of my era were folks like Crow Sting, Goldberg during his streak, Stone Cold Steve Austin, Mick Foley, the nWo Wolfpac, post-HBK DX, and eventually the Rock. Not a lot of white meat babyfaces in that group. Granted I liked Cena when the rest of the internet hated the dude.
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Post by Denny Zen on Feb 26, 2024 12:47:58 GMT -5
The BCC are basically what pro wrestlers would logically be if heel/face alignments weren't such an established trope. This is exactly what I like about both the BCC and the way AEW is generally booked as compared to other wrestling promotions. The BCC are extremely talented professional wrestlers who want to be the best at their craft. That's an endearing quality. They also, by and large, are extremely violent borderline psychopaths who seem to genuinely enjoy inflicting pain on their opponents. That's not an endearing quality. Some people will cheer them and some people will boo them, and that will largely be contingent upon whether their ire is currently directed at someone the fans like or dislike. That sort of shades of gray feels like how wrestling should be to me. At its core, it's a simulated combat sport. It makes way more sense that all of the people competing in said combat sport would have positive attributes and negative attributes, as opposed to everyone being a completely irredeemable villain or an infallible hero. I totally understand and respect why people who became fans during WWF's Golden Era would expect "good vs. evil" as the driving force but I, personally, sort of hate it. These people are, ostensibly, professional athletes trying to be the best and win championships, not the SuperFriends or the Legion of Doom (Hawk and Animal notwithstanding). My least favorite wrestling trope is when someone turns babyface and the babyface who they were literally trying to murder when they were a heel instantly becomes their best friend. For me, AEW does the shades of gray really well. Almost no one is really a babyface or heel in the traditional sense. Hangman/Swerve and the BCC are really good examples of that in my personal opinion.
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Post by daaave on Feb 26, 2024 13:53:39 GMT -5
I too like how AEW uses face and heels. I'm super bored of the generic face/heel tropes. Heels can only ever win by cheating but the moment they turn face they are suddenly best in the world at wrestling.
It's 2024 and lets try something different. The cheating heel rarely gets the heat they used nowadays. We are all too clued up so try a different approach. Just coz a heel wins a match cleanly doesn't mean people wont still boo them.
AEW obviously still use these tropes but will still blur it a bit. Like BCC but also White, Takeshita and Hobbs have all had big clean wins as heels against faces in recent months. Also opposite with face MJF who would still cheat to win.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Feb 26, 2024 14:48:06 GMT -5
See, this is why I liked 2010s peak NJPW so much, it had the atmosphere of a sports competition where the three top native faces had different temperaments (Tanahashi being more traditional, Naito a tweener face with a “dark horse” following and Okada being arrogant but still having a code of honor) and fought each other for belts with no issue, while also having beef with heel-to-tweeners like Omega, charming villain's like Suzuki and Jay White playing the flat out scumbag. Tenzan and the dad’s adding atmosphere, Yano with the humor, Hiromu brought the quirky weirdness, etc.
I’m not saying BCC’s act is bad or ineffective, given how much NJPW crowds certainly like them, but New Japan’s past peak is a good example of why the basic idea of faces and heels is *not* dead, even with a a company having a strong competitive tone. As far as being an effective model to grow business, it isn’t going anywhere.
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Post by Citizen Snips Has Left on Feb 26, 2024 18:07:25 GMT -5
Hence why I always champion the over-the-top babyfaces like Visionary Seth, Big Match Cena, prime Dusty, surfer Sting, etc. that older fans sometimes find “annoying” but they still draw because they hold your attention. Sometimes just comes down to when you started watching wrestling and personal preferences I think. Started watching wrestling during peak NWO vs Sting and Crow Sting was just the coolest dude at the time and he pretty much molded what I prefer in a babyface in wrestling. Love me a good anti-hero babyface that has some edge to him. A very good point. At least it explains why I’m bored by the “I’m the bestest wrestler!” types and want my heroes to cut people’s hair or throw a snake on them. We’re molded by our earliest influence.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Feb 26, 2024 18:25:21 GMT -5
Sometimes just comes down to when you started watching wrestling and personal preferences I think. Started watching wrestling during peak NWO vs Sting and Crow Sting was just the coolest dude at the time and he pretty much molded what I prefer in a babyface in wrestling. Love me a good anti-hero babyface that has some edge to him. A very good point. At least it explains why I’m bored by the “I’m the bestest wrestler!” types and want my heroes to cut people’s hair or throw a snake on them. We’re molded by our earliest influence. Then why is it that I'm one of the most repressed people on earth, despite during my early time watching wrestling, I latched onto Shawn Michaels and Goldust?
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Feb 26, 2024 18:37:54 GMT -5
Part of that (as a general wrestling-wide thing), I think, is that generally (not always, but generally) babyfaces need to be more grounded and down to earth, when we're more in the theater kid/comic fan era of wrestling where a lot of talent wants to be more over-the-top about their persona. Hence why I always champion the over-the-top babyfaces like Visionary Seth, Big Match Cena, prime Dusty, surfer Sting, etc. that older fans sometimes find “annoying” but they still draw because they hold your attention. AEW Cody tried to be the clean-cut good guy, but didn't really succeed to the degree that he's found in WWE. Whether that comes down to not being split off into his own area or if his good guy character just works better under a WWE lens is anyone's guess.
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Soultastic
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Post by Soultastic on Feb 26, 2024 19:09:20 GMT -5
Hence why I always champion the over-the-top babyfaces like Visionary Seth, Big Match Cena, prime Dusty, surfer Sting, etc. that older fans sometimes find “annoying” but they still draw because they hold your attention. AEW Cody tried to be the clean-cut good guy, but didn't really succeed to the degree that he's found in WWE. Whether that comes down to not being split off into his own area or if his good guy character just works better under a WWE lens is anyone's guess. Cody being a clean cut babyface wan't the problem. After all, he was over as f*** in the begining. Then he went "you don't actually want me to be wold champion, you want drama with my family". All he had to do was win the title once and drop it. Even if he never won it again, he would've had access to main event angles and avoid that weird gatekeeper role.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Feb 26, 2024 19:11:23 GMT -5
AEW Cody tried to be the clean-cut good guy, but didn't really succeed to the degree that he's found in WWE. Whether that comes down to not being split off into his own area or if his good guy character just works better under a WWE lens is anyone's guess. Cody being a clean cut babyface wan't thw problem. After all, he was over as f*** in the begining. Then he went "you don't actually want me to be wold champion, you want drama with my family". All he had to do was win the title once and drop it. Even if he never won it again, he would've had access to main event angles and avoid that weird gatekeeper role. Cody wanted to be a 1970s babyface, when ultimately he works better as a 1980s babyface.
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Post by Some Guy on Feb 26, 2024 19:21:31 GMT -5
Cody being a clean cut babyface wan't thw problem. After all, he was over as f*** in the begining. Then he went "you don't actually want me to be wold champion, you want drama with my family". All he had to do was win the title once and drop it. Even if he never won it again, he would've had access to main event angles and avoid that weird gatekeeper role. Cody wanted to be a 1970s babyface, when ultimately he works better as a 1980s babyface. He tries the 80s rah rah USA stuff and it absolutely plummeted him so badly he never recovered. The Ogogo feud might singlehandedly be the most damaging feud that was ever booked in AEW.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Feb 26, 2024 19:24:52 GMT -5
Cody wanted to be a 1970s babyface, when ultimately he works better as a 1980s babyface. He tries the 80s rah rah USA stuff and it absolutely plummeted him so badly he never recovered. The Ogogo feud might singlehandedly be the most damaging feud that was ever booked in AEW. Cody zipped right past 80s there and went into god knows what. I don't think anybody was saying "My mixed-race child just ended racism" back then. My parents certainly didn't. But all that said, his current WWE form is very 80s.
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