Soultastic
El Dandy
Only an idiot can be completely happy.
Posts: 7,795
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Post by Soultastic on Feb 26, 2024 19:50:02 GMT -5
He tries the 80s rah rah USA stuff and it absolutely plummeted him so badly he never recovered. The Ogogo feud might singlehandedly be the most damaging feud that was ever booked in AEW. Cody zipped right past 80s there and went into god knows what. I don't think anybody was saying "My mixed-race child just ended racism" back then. My parents certainly didn't. But all that said, his current WWE form is very 80s. I think a lot of it comes down to not being able to do whatever he wants anymore. As much as I prefer a product where wrestlers have lots more creative control, many do benefit from being told what to do. Looking at you, Miro. Stop trying to make your weird ass catholic rage cuck gimmick happen. |
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Post by kingoftheindies on Feb 26, 2024 20:14:21 GMT -5
Hence why I always champion the over-the-top babyfaces like Visionary Seth, Big Match Cena, prime Dusty, surfer Sting, etc. that older fans sometimes find “annoying” but they still draw because they hold your attention. Sometimes just comes down to when you started watching wrestling and personal preferences I think. Started watching wrestling during peak NWO vs Sting and Crow Sting was just the coolest dude at the time and he pretty much molded what I prefer in a babyface in wrestling. Love me a good anti-hero babyface that has some edge to him. I think it is also worth mentioning that how someone gets over depends on how they take to the character. Hangman became a huge face because his battle with anxiety and self doubt was so relatable and I feel Hangman was also a classic 80's southern babyface himself. At the same time as much as I loved Hangman's face arc, I'm loving the double turn with him and Swerve because it plays off some elements from a lot of shows I watched during the 2010s when you see characters lose their minds/have redemptions. It's layered it's believable. I think so many people have gotten burnt by the super sudden turns both heel and face thanks to Russo that many of us do get cynical when it seems like people are inconsistent. I do think though with the BCC they've made their stance clear. THey're gonna beat you up and if you beat them they'll show you respect, but 3 of them hate Eddie |
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King Devitt
Grimlock
It gets better the longer you stare at it
Posts: 13,743
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Post by King Devitt on Feb 26, 2024 20:34:57 GMT -5
In fairness you could have removed the last 2 words from the thread title.  |
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KME
Team Rocket
Posts: 777
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Post by KME on Feb 27, 2024 7:28:37 GMT -5
Hence why I always champion the over-the-top babyfaces like Visionary Seth, Big Match Cena, prime Dusty, surfer Sting, etc. that older fans sometimes find “annoying” but they still draw because they hold your attention. AEW Cody tried to be the clean-cut good guy, but didn't really succeed to the degree that he's found in WWE. Whether that comes down to not being split off into his own area or if his good guy character just works better under a WWE lens is anyone's guess. I get the feeling WWE crowds love flags quite a lot more than AEW's, just wildly different fan bases in certain ways. I was still staggered when I listened to Cody's promos in both promotions and how similar his character is and the difference in reactions though. Just on the subject of the xenophobia stuff discussed earlier, people really need to stop saying someone has "no personality" because they're from another country. It comes across so f***ing ignorant. It's mostly on social media but seen it a bit on here too and it's grim. |
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Post by Bang Bang Bart on Feb 27, 2024 9:45:23 GMT -5
He tries the 80s rah rah USA stuff and it absolutely plummeted him so badly he never recovered. The Ogogo feud might singlehandedly be the most damaging feud that was ever booked in AEW. Cody zipped right past 80s there and went into god knows what. I don't think anybody was saying "My mixed-race child just ended racism" back then. My parents certainly didn't. But all that said, his current WWE form is very 80s. Also helps that in WWE, despite his nickname and entrance graphics having US flag imagery, his character isn’t going the “USA rules! Everyone else drools!” route. |
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Post by HMARK Center on Feb 27, 2024 9:49:59 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm someone who was there for all of Danielson's ROH title run, so to me peak AmDrag is "Dickhead just as likely to shake your hand as kick you in the balls". He's an honorable fighter 99% of the time once the bell rings, but he's also someone who's fully and utterly aware of just how great he is and, thus, he absolutely exudes arrogance, because why shouldn't he? Thus, when you get him outside the ring he's quick to deride others who don't meet his standards, or he's willing to do things to prop up his greatness (e.g. attacking Samoa Joe during the ROH vs. CZW Cage of Death match, thus nearly sabotaging ROH's chances to win, because he wanted to weaken Joe ahead of their title match), but again, once the bell rings he wants to beat you straight-up, since that's the standard he holds himself to, and it's one that can make him either more relatable and babyface-ish against jerk opponents or an insufferable, smug, violent prick against full faces.
As for traditional face/heel dynamics, like all things in wrestling it's basically case sensitive; there are characters and performers who can 100% pull off being a full-time pure babyface or heel, and that's something a promoter shouldn't hesitate to run with and feature, since you know those are people who'll generate crowd reactions. That said, on the whole I'm fine with most wrestlers being comfortable with some shades of grey, and allowing the underlying face/heel dynamic to be based more around how the crowd reacts to two guys' characters as opposed to just reacting to their alignments. Part of what made and makes both Okada and Tanahashi great as aces in NJPW is that both guys could play face in peril, but given that they were the top acts and most dominant champions they could just as easily turn into the kind of arrogant character I just described above - Tanahashi, after all, would have matches against underdogs or faces the crowd liked and he'd sometimes turn his performance into "What, you're not going to cheer me? OH, you're going to BOO me? Well, @#$% you, then, your hero gets three Dragon Screws in a row."
There are times you want someone to play a pure face or heel, there are characters who are at their best as pure faces or pure heels, but my preference in most situations is for it to be a sort of case-by-case, situational thing where the dynamics between two fleshed-out characters mostly determines how the wrestlers lay their match out and how they get the crowd to react.
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Post by polarbearpete on Feb 27, 2024 10:07:11 GMT -5
Just wanted to chime in and back up Lizuka’s point. Danielson is probably my favorite wrestler and the BCC deal does nothing for me. They usually seem rather aimless drifting randomly from feud to feud with occasional banger matches, so it makes me want to ignore the week to week and just seek out the banger matches that I’m most interested in opponents-wise. I’m more likely to fast forward through a random Claudio/Mox vs. CMLL tag match than I am something that has more story and meat to it but might not be as technically good of a match.
Also, maybe it’s by design but the BCC has seemed to “level down” (can’t think of the opposite word of elevate right now) both Moxley and Danielson. They feel like less of a big deal than they did on the way in and early on in their singles runs.
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
FANatic
Writer, Lover of all things Wrestling. Analytical, Critical, Lovable (hopefully). Lets all have fun!
Posts: 235,446
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Feb 27, 2024 10:18:17 GMT -5
Just wanted to chime in and back up Lizuka’s point. Danielson is probably my favorite wrestler and the BCC deal does nothing for me. They usually seem rather aimless drifting randomly from feud to feud with occasional banger matches, so it makes me want to ignore the week to week and just seek out the banger matches that I’m most interested in opponents-wise. I’m more likely to fast forward through a random Claudio/Mox vs. CMLL tag match than I am something that has more story and meat to it but might not be as technically good of a match. Also, maybe it’s by design but the BCC has seemed to “level down” (can’t think of the opposite word of elevate right now) both Moxley and Danielson. They feel like less of a big deal than they did on the way in and early on in their singles runs. Don't agree with the last point at all. Danielson can be generous (Always has been) but Mox still very rarely gets pinned. Jay White pinning him clean was and still is a big deal, he hasn't been pinned in AEW since if my memory is correct |
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Post by polarbearpete on Feb 27, 2024 10:38:09 GMT -5
Just wanted to chime in and back up Lizuka’s point. Danielson is probably my favorite wrestler and the BCC deal does nothing for me. They usually seem rather aimless drifting randomly from feud to feud with occasional banger matches, so it makes me want to ignore the week to week and just seek out the banger matches that I’m most interested in opponents-wise. I’m more likely to fast forward through a random Claudio/Mox vs. CMLL tag match than I am something that has more story and meat to it but might not be as technically good of a match. Also, maybe it’s by design but the BCC has seemed to “level down” (can’t think of the opposite word of elevate right now) both Moxley and Danielson. They feel like less of a big deal than they did on the way in and early on in their singles runs. Don't agree with the last point at all. Danielson can be generous (Always has been) but Mox still very rarely gets pinned. Jay White pinning him clean was and still is a big deal, he hasn't been pinned in AEW since if my memory is correct My statement had nothing to do with their records. In my eyes, their starpower/gravitas has been lowered being in the group. Again, maybe that’s by design as they age and move more towards the mid-card but it is rather jarring to me. Someone like Jericho moving down the card from where he was in early AEW makes sense because of his age and abilities, but Mox and Danielson feel like they should still be and feel like top top guys. |
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Post by Denny Zen on Feb 27, 2024 11:17:48 GMT -5
Personally, I feel like Mox and Danielson (and Claudio) are still clearly conveyed as top of the card guys, but they aren't in the top of the card storyline at the moment, so they've sort of moved into an upper midcard role of, essentially, fighting "invaders from other territories" to firmly establish that they are the best wrestlers in the entire world. Danielson/Kingston is a corollary of that, because Kingston is the "triple crown" champion, which includes an NJPW championship and evokes Japanese wrestling imagery, and Kingston is heavily influenced by Japanese wrestling generally. Your mileage may vary on that sort of storyline because it is a very simplistic "I just want to be the best wrestler" story, without any underlying narrative reason for why Jon Moxley hates Star Jr.'s guts so damn much, but it's the kind of thing that I enjoy in wrestling.
Right now, Swerve and Hangman are the very top of the AEW card and Sting's impending retirement requires him to be treated as a main eventer one last time, so the BCC is in sort of a tertiary spot. But I would not be shocked at all if Moxley and/or Bryan move right back into world title contention when this current round of storylines wraps up and I don't think the crowd would have any trouble accepting it if they do, so I don't think they've really been moved down the card in the same way as someone like Jericho (who I think, at this point, the crowd would balk a little bit at contending for the world title again).
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Post by polarbearpete on Feb 27, 2024 11:28:59 GMT -5
Personally, I feel like Mox and Danielson (and Claudio) are still clearly conveyed as top of the card guys, but they aren't in the top of the card storyline at the moment, so they've sort of moved into an upper midcard role of, essentially, fighting "invaders from other territories" to firmly establish that they are the best wrestlers in the entire world. Danielson/Kingston is a corollary of that, because Kingston is the "triple crown" champion, which includes an NJPW championship and evokes Japanese wrestling imagery, and Kingston is heavily influenced by Japanese wrestling generally. Your mileage may vary on that sort of storyline because it is a very simplistic "I just want to be the best wrestler" story, without any underlying narrative reason for why Jon Moxley hates Star Jr.'s guts so damn much, but it's the kind of thing that I enjoy in wrestling. Right now, Swerve and Hangman are the very top of the AEW card and Sting's impending retirement requires him to be treated as a main eventer one last time, so the BCC is in sort of a tertiary spot. But I would not be shocked at all if Moxley and/or Bryan move right back into world title contention when this current round of storylines wraps up and I don't think the crowd would have any trouble accepting it if they do, so I don't think they've really been moved down the card in the same way as someone like Jericho (who I think, at this point, the crowd would balk a little bit at contending for the world title again). I’d love to see Danielson cycle back to the top of the card but I’m not sure it will happen with Ospreay and Okada coming in, and MJF and Cole returning. He really hasn’t been a main event feature since the MJF feud which was already a full year ago. Maybe he can win the triple crown and defend against an incoming Okada as his first feud. Moxley’s been out of that scene since the Punk drama, although I did like the OC feud. |
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Zone Was Wrong
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Currently living off the high that AEW brings every Wednesday and Friday
Posts: 16,144
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Feb 27, 2024 13:44:49 GMT -5
Personally, I feel like Mox and Danielson (and Claudio) are still clearly conveyed as top of the card guys, but they aren't in the top of the card storyline at the moment, so they've sort of moved into an upper midcard role of, essentially, fighting "invaders from other territories" to firmly establish that they are the best wrestlers in the entire world. Danielson/Kingston is a corollary of that, because Kingston is the "triple crown" champion, which includes an NJPW championship and evokes Japanese wrestling imagery, and Kingston is heavily influenced by Japanese wrestling generally. Your mileage may vary on that sort of storyline because it is a very simplistic "I just want to be the best wrestler" story, without any underlying narrative reason for why Jon Moxley hates Star Jr.'s guts so damn much, but it's the kind of thing that I enjoy in wrestling. Right now, Swerve and Hangman are the very top of the AEW card and Sting's impending retirement requires him to be treated as a main eventer one last time, so the BCC is in sort of a tertiary spot. But I would not be shocked at all if Moxley and/or Bryan move right back into world title contention when this current round of storylines wraps up and I don't think the crowd would have any trouble accepting it if they do, so I don't think they've really been moved down the card in the same way as someone like Jericho (who I think, at this point, the crowd would balk a little bit at contending for the world title again). I’d love to see Danielson cycle back to the top of the card but I’m not sure it will happen with Ospreay and Okada coming in, and MJF and Cole returning. He really hasn’t been a main event feature since the MJF feud which was already a full year ago. Maybe he can win the triple crown and defend against an incoming Okada as his first feud. Moxley’s been out of that scene since the Punk drama, although I did like the OC feud. Danielson's on the down slope of his full time career and he's pretty much getting to do what he wants to do, wrestle other top wrestlers of the world and put over a few guys on the way out. He's always admitted to being one of the most unselfish guys in wrestling and just enjoys going out there and wrestling. So doubt he'll be doing much more than what we're seeing. Mox will probably cycle back into the main event when he's needed. He's another who has stated he would wrestle for food if it meant getting to wrestle how he wants to wrestle. Claudio is one I'm not sure of though. He's never really forthright with where he wants to be at any given moment. I can see him and Mox in a tag team title run for a bit though. Maybe capturing the of the mid card titles at some point. Doesn't seem like though he's poised for a top card position at the moment. |
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Post by HMARK Center on Feb 27, 2024 14:01:21 GMT -5
Just had an evil thought: imagine a scenario where Danielson says that's it, he's done working full time, but the BCC basically says "well, ok, but we get to kick your ass one more time, you don't get to leave unscarred". It'd be the kind of thing where Danielson would just smile and nod, because this is the way he wants things to be.
Except then, you have Claudio introduce his replacement in the group, and it ends up being a debuting Sheamus, who takes out a stopwatch and times himself putting Dragon down in 18 seconds.
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Post by Cyno on Feb 27, 2024 14:06:53 GMT -5
Just had an evil thought: imagine a scenario where Danielson says that's it, he's done working full time, but the BCC basically says "well, ok, but we get to kick your ass one more time, you don't get to leave unscarred". It'd be the kind of thing where Danielson would just smile and nod, because this is the way he wants things to be. Except then, you have Claudio introduce his replacement in the group, and it ends up being a debuting Sheamus, who takes out a stopwatch and times himself putting Dragon down in 18 seconds. That would be pure evil, and I'm not sure if I'd love it for incredible heel work or hate it because my favorite of all time is going out that way. |
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Zone Was Wrong
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Currently living off the high that AEW brings every Wednesday and Friday
Posts: 16,144
Member is Online
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Post by Zone Was Wrong on Feb 27, 2024 15:17:30 GMT -5
Just had an evil thought: imagine a scenario where Danielson says that's it, he's done working full time, but the BCC basically says "well, ok, but we get to kick your ass one more time, you don't get to leave unscarred". It'd be the kind of thing where Danielson would just smile and nod, because this is the way he wants things to be. Except then, you have Claudio introduce his replacement in the group, and it ends up being a debuting Sheamus, who takes out a stopwatch and times himself putting Dragon down in 18 seconds. That would be *chefs kiss* |
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Feb 27, 2024 15:32:29 GMT -5
Just had an evil thought: imagine a scenario where Danielson says that's it, he's done working full time, but the BCC basically says "well, ok, but we get to kick your ass one more time, you don't get to leave unscarred". It'd be the kind of thing where Danielson would just smile and nod, because this is the way he wants things to be. Except then, you have Claudio introduce his replacement in the group, and it ends up being a debuting Sheamus, who takes out a stopwatch and times himself putting Dragon down in 18 seconds. Sheamus just seems like such a natural fit for the BCC if he actually does end up coming into AEW. Danielson and Moxley are guys who could always believably challenge for the world title (and Claudio to a lesser extent) but I'm glad they're not in the world title picture right now, you have to keep things fresh and allow other people to establish themselves as main eventers |
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Post by Denny Zen on Feb 27, 2024 15:37:06 GMT -5
Just had an evil thought: imagine a scenario where Danielson says that's it, he's done working full time, but the BCC basically says "well, ok, but we get to kick your ass one more time, you don't get to leave unscarred". It'd be the kind of thing where Danielson would just smile and nod, because this is the way he wants things to be. Except then, you have Claudio introduce his replacement in the group, and it ends up being a debuting Sheamus, who takes out a stopwatch and times himself putting Dragon down in 18 seconds. AEW should hire you onto the creative team immediately. I would love this. |
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Post by DrBackflipsHoffman on Feb 27, 2024 15:58:37 GMT -5
it's genuinely nice that a lot of these AEW guys version of fun is more or less IWA MS with NJPW matches
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Post by HMARK Center on Feb 27, 2024 17:01:24 GMT -5
Just had an evil thought: imagine a scenario where Danielson says that's it, he's done working full time, but the BCC basically says "well, ok, but we get to kick your ass one more time, you don't get to leave unscarred". It'd be the kind of thing where Danielson would just smile and nod, because this is the way he wants things to be. Except then, you have Claudio introduce his replacement in the group, and it ends up being a debuting Sheamus, who takes out a stopwatch and times himself putting Dragon down in 18 seconds. That would be pure evil, and I'm not sure if I'd love it for incredible heel work or hate it because my favorite of all time is going out that way. Oh, I'd want him to get some payback pretty quick, he's not 100% retiring, after all, but if they decided that he's going to be separated from the BCC, I'd have it go down like Yuta doing something shitty and allowing Sheamus to plant him down like that for the segment. |
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Feb 28, 2024 8:21:52 GMT -5
Just had an evil thought: imagine a scenario where Danielson says that's it, he's done working full time, but the BCC basically says "well, ok, but we get to kick your ass one more time, you don't get to leave unscarred". It'd be the kind of thing where Danielson would just smile and nod, because this is the way he wants things to be. Except then, you have Claudio introduce his replacement in the group, and it ends up being a debuting Sheamus, who takes out a stopwatch and times himself putting Dragon down in 18 seconds. I hate this so much, book it Tony. |
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