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Post by stoptheclocks on Mar 22, 2024 8:31:55 GMT -5
I think at this point, the only thing that really needs to be said is that I am almost positive that everyone on this forum recognizes that wrestling fans who don't consider wrestling their #1 hobby exist, and that it's obviously a positive for a wrestling company to appeal (but not cater) to those people. The pushback against "the casual fan" narrative is because so many people use it as an expy for themselves with the argument more or less being "if [insert company] simply catered to exactly what I like in wrestling, then it would become mainstream again and people who otherwise would have no interest in pro wrestling would be left with no choice but to watch because I am way less dorky than all of the other wrestling fans, and what I enjoy is actually cool!" Nothing's impossible and never say never, but the odds of something as inherently campy and niche as professional wrestling becoming "mainstream" again in the same way that it was in the late 90s in this day and age of cord-cutting, streaming, and on-demand entertainment are minuscule. People see an 800k United States Nielsen TV rating and are like "that's it, pack it in, AEW is dead," when in reality consistently drawing upwards of a million viewers worldwide each week and consistently getting upwards of 100k quarterly PPV buys is a sign of resounding success for a pro wrestling company. If the measure of success for AEW to you is "convincing non-wrestling fans (or even people who haven't watched wrestling since 1999) to watch," then of course the only thing AEW can do is fail, because that's basically an impossible task. Not to put it on you, but this post is emblematic of how increasingly bizarre these ratings are. Like the two points you've made in quotes, even allowing for rhetorical effect, who has said anything even approaching those two things in this thread? Reading through, you'd think half a dozen posts trolling AEW must have been deleted, as that would at least make sense of the defensive arguments which reflexively come out each week. Probably time to knock these threads on the head.
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Mar 22, 2024 8:37:12 GMT -5
I see this thread is going really well literally from the first reply
This forum, and all social media, goes to some weird places sometimes but I don't think anything is as consistently, weirdly unhinged as an AEW ratings thread
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Post by "Gizzark" Mike Wronglevenay on Mar 22, 2024 8:37:49 GMT -5
TIL: the mythical “casual wrestling fans” are really just lapsed Every Time I Die fans longing for more Butcher on their televisions. after the way that band split up, I'm not sure I even like Butcher at all any more!
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Post by drougfree on Mar 22, 2024 8:38:46 GMT -5
Tony Khan has spent 20 million per year on these 4 talents (Sasha,Osprey,Edge,Okada) and they haven't made any difference in the ratings. I hope he doesn't get bored if his business continues to be in the red. If AEW goes bankrupt, it would be terrible for the wrestling business. Frankly, we have no idea what AEW’s books look like since it’s a private company. The only people who really care are Tony and his dad. Also TK is trying to get a big TV rights deal increase from WBD. And bringing in Okada, Ospreay, Mercedes, etc plays into that I suspect. The old idea of “ spend money to make money” and all that. If he gets that increase, then it wu all be worth it. TV viewership down 20% from last year, worse ticket sales, the video game has been a huge failure (currently only 10 players on Steam), PPV numbers unknown. Meanwhile, Tony Khan substantially increasing spending on wrestlers while business is down . I wish I were as optimistic as you guys, but I'm worried that TK will get tired of losing money and liquidate this business. The WWE's monopolistic era from 2002-2019 was the most miserable period of wrestling, which is why I'm so concerned that objective metrics like TV ratings or ticket sales are dropping significantly.
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Post by HMARK Center on Mar 22, 2024 8:45:34 GMT -5
Frankly, we have no idea what AEW’s books look like since it’s a private company. The only people who really care are Tony and his dad. Also TK is trying to get a big TV rights deal increase from WBD. And bringing in Okada, Ospreay, Mercedes, etc plays into that I suspect. The old idea of “ spend money to make money” and all that. If he gets that increase, then it wu all be worth it. TV viewership down 20% from last year, worse ticket sales, the video game has been a huge failure (currently only 10 players on Steam), PPV numbers unknown. Meanwhile, Tony Khan substantially increasing spending on wrestlers while business is down . I wish I were as optimistic as you guys, but I'm worried that TK will get tired of losing money and liquidate this business. The WWE's monopolistic era from 2002-2019 was the most miserable period of wrestling, which is why I'm so concerned that objective metrics like TV ratings or ticket sales are dropping significantly.
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Post by Denny Zen on Mar 22, 2024 8:46:21 GMT -5
I think at this point, the only thing that really needs to be said is that I am almost positive that everyone on this forum recognizes that wrestling fans who don't consider wrestling their #1 hobby exist, and that it's obviously a positive for a wrestling company to appeal (but not cater) to those people. The pushback against "the casual fan" narrative is because so many people use it as an expy for themselves with the argument more or less being "if [insert company] simply catered to exactly what I like in wrestling, then it would become mainstream again and people who otherwise would have no interest in pro wrestling would be left with no choice but to watch because I am way less dorky than all of the other wrestling fans, and what I enjoy is actually cool!" Nothing's impossible and never say never, but the odds of something as inherently campy and niche as professional wrestling becoming "mainstream" again in the same way that it was in the late 90s in this day and age of cord-cutting, streaming, and on-demand entertainment are minuscule. People see an 800k United States Nielsen TV rating and are like "that's it, pack it in, AEW is dead," when in reality consistently drawing upwards of a million viewers worldwide each week and consistently getting upwards of 100k quarterly PPV buys is a sign of resounding success for a pro wrestling company. If the measure of success for AEW to you is "convincing non-wrestling fans (or even people who haven't watched wrestling since 1999) to watch," then of course the only thing AEW can do is fail, because that's basically an impossible task. Not to put it on you, but this post is emblematic of how increasingly bizarre these ratings are. Like the two points you've made in quotes, even allowing for rhetorical effect, who has said anything even approaching those two things in this thread? Reading through, you'd think half a dozen posts trolling AEW must have been deleted, as that would at least make sense of the defensive arguments which reflexively come out each week. Probably time to knock these threads on the head. Well, I'm falling into the trap of arguing against the "rest of the internet" strawman because this thread literally started with someone doing the "casual fans don't exist -this forum, 2024" in Spongebob chicken font thing. The two things I put in quotes (which basically boil down to 1) AEW is a sinking ship; and 2) the way to save the ship from sinking is to cater the product to some homogenized notion of "the casual fan") are incredibly prevalent on the wrestling internet at large and, at least to me, were clearly evoked by this entire ratings thread starting off with the bang that was the mythical "casual fan" apparently preferring Butcher to Okada and the subsequent discussion of what "the casual fan" means. Don't disagree at all with the idea of knocking these threads on the head though, I said I didn't want to hijack this thread into the same conversation that we've had 9000 times at this point, then I did it anyway because I apparently can't help myself.
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
Heel turn is finished, now stripping away my personality
Posts: 6,697
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Post by lucas_lee on Mar 22, 2024 8:54:09 GMT -5
Do the doomsayers and others trying to do a victory lap not forget there'd a ton of NCCAA Basketball on? The tournament does decent numbers and will cut into AEWs ratings. Just like MNF does with WWE.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Mar 22, 2024 8:56:58 GMT -5
There's some stuff I don't love about AEW right now but trying to suggest people like The Butcher more than Okada's just downright bad faith.
They've settled around 800K but until we hear otherwise, AEW's fine. Is Tony Khan spending more money than god right now? Sure. But that's not my problem.
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Post by Jumpin' Jesse Walsh on Mar 22, 2024 9:07:42 GMT -5
The Butcher reading this thread:
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Mar 22, 2024 9:10:02 GMT -5
Frankly, we have no idea what AEW’s books look like since it’s a private company. The only people who really care are Tony and his dad. Also TK is trying to get a big TV rights deal increase from WBD. And bringing in Okada, Ospreay, Mercedes, etc plays into that I suspect. The old idea of “ spend money to make money” and all that. If he gets that increase, then it wu all be worth it. TV viewership down 20% from last year, worse ticket sales, the video game has been a huge failure (currently only 10 players on Steam), PPV numbers unknown. Meanwhile, Tony Khan substantially increasing spending on wrestlers while business is down . I wish I were as optimistic as you guys, but I'm worried that TK will get tired of losing money and liquidate this business. The WWE's monopolistic era from 2002-2019 was the most miserable period of wrestling, which is why I'm so concerned that objective metrics like TV ratings or ticket sales are dropping significantly. 1. Have you seen Tony Khan? This dude will spend every last penny he has on professional wrestling. He loves it. Like, loves it loves it. We haven't even heard whispers of "well, he needs to slow down spending." 2. Ticket sales are up. They're learning from past mistakes. For instance, last year, they ran Dynamite and Rampage on the Wednesday night before Double or Nothing in Vegas and it led to a pretty sparse crowd. This year, they're going to Bakersfield, CA that Wednesday and then presumably going to Vegas after that. I don't think they're doing gangbusters, but I don't think they're going to just go out of business tomorrow.
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Post by Finish Uncle Muffin’s Story on Mar 22, 2024 9:10:51 GMT -5
The Butcher reading this thread: #JUSTICEFORBUTCHER
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Post by YAKMAN is ICHIBAN on Mar 22, 2024 9:12:07 GMT -5
TV viewership down 20% from last year, worse ticket sales, the video game has been a huge failure (currently only 10 players on Steam), PPV numbers unknown. Meanwhile, Tony Khan substantially increasing spending on wrestlers while business is down . I wish I were as optimistic as you guys, but I'm worried that TK will get tired of losing money and liquidate this business. The WWE's monopolistic era from 2002-2019 was the most miserable period of wrestling, which is why I'm so concerned that objective metrics like TV ratings or ticket sales are dropping significantly. 1. Have you seen Tony Khan? This dude will spend every last penny he has on professional wrestling. He loves it. Like, loves it loves it. We haven't even heard whispers of "well, he needs to slow down spending." 2. Ticket sales are up. They're learning from past mistakes. For instance, last year, they ran Dynamite and Rampage on the Wednesday night before Double or Nothing in Vegas and it led to a pretty sparse crowd. This year, they're going to Bakersfield, CA that Wednesday and then presumably going to Vegas after that. I don't think they're doing gangbusters, but I don't think they're going to just go out of business tomorrow. Tony Khan literally used to write in show reports to Meltzer. He's never getting tired of wrestling.
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Post by eJm on Mar 22, 2024 9:23:42 GMT -5
1. Have you seen Tony Khan? This dude will spend every last penny he has on professional wrestling. He loves it. Like, loves it loves it. We haven't even heard whispers of "well, he needs to slow down spending.". Like, the entire origin of AEW is Shahid giving Tony the money because, in his words, “he’ll get it when I die anyway”. AEW’s basically the equivalent of if your parents gave you the money to rent out a place for a hobby store or fund a niche sport team. The only difference is literal billions of dollars.
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Post by "Evil Brood" Jackson Vanik on Mar 22, 2024 9:39:50 GMT -5
Frankly, we have no idea what AEW’s books look like since it’s a private company. The only people who really care are Tony and his dad. Also TK is trying to get a big TV rights deal increase from WBD. And bringing in Okada, Ospreay, Mercedes, etc plays into that I suspect. The old idea of “ spend money to make money” and all that. If he gets that increase, then it wu all be worth it. TV viewership down 20% from last year, worse ticket sales, the video game has been a huge failure (currently only 10 players on Steam), PPV numbers unknown. Meanwhile, Tony Khan substantially increasing spending on wrestlers while business is down . I wish I were as optimistic as you guys, but I'm worried that TK will get tired of losing money and liquidate this business. The WWE's monopolistic era from 2002-2019 was the most miserable period of wrestling, which is why I'm so concerned that objective metrics like TV ratings or ticket sales are dropping significantly. These numbers are incredibly well known and the strongest aspect of AEW's business. It's why they grossed more revenue in 2023 than any other year in their short history. They also sold more tickets in 2023 vs. 2022.
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Post by eJm on Mar 22, 2024 9:44:14 GMT -5
TV viewership down 20% from last year, worse ticket sales, the video game has been a huge failure (currently only 10 players on Steam), PPV numbers unknown. Meanwhile, Tony Khan substantially increasing spending on wrestlers while business is down . I wish I were as optimistic as you guys, but I'm worried that TK will get tired of losing money and liquidate this business. The WWE's monopolistic era from 2002-2019 was the most miserable period of wrestling, which is why I'm so concerned that objective metrics like TV ratings or ticket sales are dropping significantly. These numbers are incredibly well known and the strongest aspect of AEW's business. It's why they grossed more revenue in 2023 than any other year in their short history. They also sold more tickets in 2023 vs. 2022. Also, key thing, if PPVs were doing as bad as the poster said they were, there would be less PPVs this year, not more.
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Mar 22, 2024 10:00:00 GMT -5
While I don’t have any ideas or answers for how AEW can get new fans, discussing their ratings would be far more simplified if you guys didn’t put “Casual Fans” in caps or quotes and just called them what they actually are, which is “new fans”.
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kidkamikaze10
Dennis Stamp
Trying to think of a new avatar
Posts: 4,274
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Post by kidkamikaze10 on Mar 22, 2024 10:10:57 GMT -5
To engage on the "ratings" issue.
What part of March Madness are people forgetting? It's one of the most fun, chaotic tourneys in the world. We had a dude who looks like a future accountant completely wipe out a bunch of NBA prospects in Kentucky.
No sport can match that level of chaos. Not even MMA or wrestling.
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Post by EoE: Well There's Your Problem on Mar 22, 2024 10:14:41 GMT -5
I think there’s also a lot of frustration starting to creep into the fanbase because, and I say this trying to be as respectful to AEW as possible… This is it. There aren’t any more bigger free agents left than the ones they just signed, anything left out there is either a lateral move or lesser (even those possibly on market from WWE soon, like a Drew McIntyre or a Sheamus). They’re loading up the weekly TV with as much awesome wrestling as they can because this is the direction their fans wanted, and being more like the market leader like they were briefly previously only served to alienate those fans. Other than probably Jericho, they’re not giving that TV time to people who aren’t over or that the fans don’t either love, want to love, love to hate or want to love to hate. There’s nothing more that AEW can do to try and get the numbers up than what they’re already doing. It’s out of their hands pretty much. So it’s not really worth the headache, just keep going as you were as long as everybody’s happy, be they network, booker, wrestler or fan alike.
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Post by Dr. Bolty, Disaster Enby on Mar 22, 2024 10:15:28 GMT -5
While I don’t have any ideas or answers for how AEW can get new fans, discussing their ratings would be far more simplified if you guys didn’t put “Casual Fans” in caps or quotes and just called them what they actually are, which is “new fans”. I wouldn't call that always accurate because I feel like "new fans" get conflated with "lapsed/former fans," which is the kind of elision that I find frustrating. For example, if Jericho, Attitude Era trappings, or hosses are being used as examples of what "casual fans" want, I feel like that's evoking past era fans rather than people who have not seen wrestling before. EDIT: Pointing out that the examples I'm using here are the baggage from this argument being waged multiple times in the past. I don't really feel like riffing on the initial exchange that I participated in because it's a dead horse by now.
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Post by eJm on Mar 22, 2024 10:57:19 GMT -5
While I don’t have any ideas or answers for how AEW can get new fans, discussing their ratings would be far more simplified if you guys didn’t put “Casual Fans” in caps or quotes and just called them what they actually are, which is “new fans”. As Bolty points out, they seem like (at least from the people arguing here) two different sort of groups. The "casual fan" (again, from what one side is arguing) are the people who know wrestling and know about from other mediums or their past and want to watch something like that or even just watch those people period. Like how Jericho was a big attraction for a long time because people knew Jericho. Or WWE bringing back The Rock because people know The Rock. It's not to say you can't do stuff to attract them but they're good for an extra kick with ratings and advertising hence why USA did so many specials in the mid 2010s to try and get those people as much as possible. New Fans, really, are those new to wrestling. New to it being a weekly format and new to various people and in that sense, I agree that it's up to the programme to address things for a new audience like ring announcers and commentators talking about past stories, rules of matches etc. That stuff is going to help explain most questions a fan might have in context and what's going on with a show. There are people who aren't ever going to comprehend it all but those aren't the people you want to target because, hey, if you want high drama, you watch HBO or Showtime or whatever channels and services do that.
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