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Post by THE FVNKER on Apr 2, 2024 18:49:35 GMT -5
So forever more TK has the obligation to honor all contracts’ lengths just because he said that one time? You (and admittedly neither do I) have any idea what necessitated the releases. What if they freed up that money so they could spend it on advertising in order to make more money, to pay talent more? Tony has spent tons of money creating the first viable #2 company in over 20 years, including paying some industry leading contracts. Not to mention.. Unless the talents released are prepared to litigate this claiming that in the contract, it said “Tony Khan will honor the length of this contract no matter what”.. there is a high likelihood that it states that talents can be released with whatever specified reasoning’s there are.. And if they didn’t like that when they read it, they didn’t have to sign it. Look, I’m on these guys’ team even if it doesn’t sound like it, but this is just crazy to bust out the pitchforks and torches when the entire relationship between independent contractors and the people offering the work is hinged on the fact that the employer can usually terminate them as needed, wether or not the boss said he would or wouldn’t in some interview. Personal example: The company I work for is rumored to be undergoing a merger. My senior manager told us everything would be fine, and not to look for other employment. Months after stating that, he took a position with the rumored other company (think what Heyman did to the ECW guys if you need a wrestling reference). What did we do? Talked crap about him at work, made jokes.. the usual. Like everyone is doing here. However we all understand that at work, things happen. At your job, a family atmosphere is nice but unfortunately the reality is, is that everyone is looking out for their own best interests a lot of times and that doesn’t make it 100% morally wrong. It just doesn’t. Is it f’ed up of him to say he’ll never cut anyone knowing that things could change at any time and he may need to? Yes. But that’s all it is. A little f’ed up. I don't know why I need to tell you this, but lying is immoral. Yeah. It is. Lying is definitely morally wrong, and if this is something they took and official stance on as a company it would slightly differently color how I view it. I’m just simply offering up the other side of the discussion. I don’t have a dog in the race, and as soon as I close the tab on this page I won’t even be thinking about it anymore. My main talking point is that, this exact situation is very likely to have been outlined in the contract and if they signed it consensually then they had to know this was a possible risk, no matter what TK has said publicly. Also, on the off chance anyone is specifically following or replying to comments I’ve made here, please let it be known that sometimes I just enjoy debating and playing the other side of the coin. I don’t know any of you other than the little username that we al hide behind but I genuinely enjoy viewing this message board, and even if I come off crass or harsh sometimes it’s never an attack on anyone personally or their opinions. Just want to say that 🙏 |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Apr 2, 2024 18:49:59 GMT -5
I’ll say again, for WWE, AEW, TNA, MLW, your local indie that somehow can do guaranteed deals, whoever it may be.
If you don’t have the funds to offer people contracts of a certain length, you don’t do it. If you need the funds for advertising or whatever it may be, provide it another way. WWE’s had funds saved up for years for no real reason, TK’s a billionaire, Bauer is very rich, Anthem can afford a lot, there’s no real excuse if you know you can get the money back another way.
If you can’t do it, that’s a you problem. It’s honestly as simple as that. And yes, the language might make it easy to do but on the other hand, you don’t need to make 3+ year contracts if you can’t fulfill them. Sign people on yearly revolving contracts if it’s that much of an apparent issue.
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Post by Final Countdown Jones on Apr 2, 2024 19:06:57 GMT -5
I don't know why I need to tell you this, but lying is immoral. Yeah. It is. Lying is definitely morally wrong, and if this is something they took and official stance on as a company it would slightly differently color how I view it. I’m just simply offering up the other side of the discussion. I don’t have a dog in the race, and as soon as I close the tab on this page I won’t even be thinking about it anymore. My main talking point is that, this exact situation is very likely to have been outlined in the contract and if they signed it consensually then they had to know this was a possible risk, no matter what TK has said publicly. Also, on the off chance anyone is specifically following or replying to comments I’ve made here, please let it be known that sometimes I just enjoy debating and playing the other side of the coin. I don’t know any of you other than the little username that we al hide behind but I genuinely enjoy viewing this message board, and even if I come off crass or harsh sometimes it’s never an attack on anyone personally or their opinions. Just want to say that 🙏 I mean you aren't coming off as crass or attacking but "tee hee I am but a silly man playing devil's advocate tee hee" is honestly sorta worse than if you dug in your heels and meant it. |
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Post by 06vwgti on Apr 2, 2024 19:11:14 GMT -5
I’ll say again, for WWE, AEW, TNA, MLW, your local indie that somehow can do guaranteed deals, whoever it may be. If you don’t have the funds to offer people contracts of a certain length, you don’t do it. If you need the funds for advertising or whatever it may be, provide it another way. WWE’s had funds saved up for years for no real reason, TK’s a billionaire, Bauer is very rich, Anthem can afford a lot, there’s no real excuse if you know you can get the money back another way. If you can’t do it, that’s a you problem. It’s honestly as simple as that. And yes, the language might make it easy to do but on the other hand, you don’t need to make 3+ year contracts if you can’t fulfill them. Sign people on yearly revolving contracts if it’s that much of an apparent issue. The NJPW way of contracts... The guaranteed contracts felt more like a selling point to attract talent, and now that seems to be gone. |
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Post by THE FVNKER on Apr 2, 2024 19:11:59 GMT -5
Yeah. It is. Lying is definitely morally wrong, and if this is something they took and official stance on as a company it would slightly differently color how I view it. I’m just simply offering up the other side of the discussion. I don’t have a dog in the race, and as soon as I close the tab on this page I won’t even be thinking about it anymore. My main talking point is that, this exact situation is very likely to have been outlined in the contract and if they signed it consensually then they had to know this was a possible risk, no matter what TK has said publicly. Also, on the off chance anyone is specifically following or replying to comments I’ve made here, please let it be known that sometimes I just enjoy debating and playing the other side of the coin. I don’t know any of you other than the little username that we al hide behind but I genuinely enjoy viewing this message board, and even if I come off crass or harsh sometimes it’s never an attack on anyone personally or their opinions. Just want to say that 🙏 I mean you aren't coming off as crass or attacking but "tee hee I am but a silly man playing devil's advocate tee hee" is honestly sorta worse than if you dug in your heels and meant it. Eh, it’s a little more intentional than me just being “silly”. Just trying to see if I can offer up a different though path, and also seeing if anyone can do the same for me. Regardless, it’s just banter. |
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Post by Lance Uppercut on Apr 2, 2024 19:14:28 GMT -5
Unfortunately, "hire everyone, never let anyone go" is a nice idea in principle but AEW is still a business There was a lot about early AEW that was "nice in principle, but not realistic" that I felt about their "wrestling promotion for wrestlers" thought process and the moral pedestal the fans put them on as the "progressive wrestling company". It's kind of what made me leary about going, for lack of a better word, All in on this company. That and the Hate boner for WWE many people had at the time. I think what we're seeing now and over the last few months is "Oh, that's why WWE does that bullshit". |
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Post by Feargus McReddit on Apr 2, 2024 19:16:56 GMT -5
I’ll say again, for WWE, AEW, TNA, MLW, your local indie that somehow can do guaranteed deals, whoever it may be. If you don’t have the funds to offer people contracts of a certain length, you don’t do it. If you need the funds for advertising or whatever it may be, provide it another way. WWE’s had funds saved up for years for no real reason, TK’s a billionaire, Bauer is very rich, Anthem can afford a lot, there’s no real excuse if you know you can get the money back another way. If you can’t do it, that’s a you problem. It’s honestly as simple as that. And yes, the language might make it easy to do but on the other hand, you don’t need to make 3+ year contracts if you can’t fulfill them. Sign people on yearly revolving contracts if it’s that much of an apparent issue. The NJPW way of contracts... The guaranteed contracts felt more like a selling point to attract talent, and now that seems to be gone. I’m not against guaranteed contracts and we’re at a point where not offering them is basically sending us back to the “Hot Dog and Handshake” era with billions of dollars instead of millions and this isn’t even just a pro wrestling issue (comic book creators, animators, video game developers, all treated like crap and being paid like crap unless you’re the tippity top of the field and getting consistent work), it’s just my opinion of it all. Releases should only happen in desperate times or if someone f***s up in a certain way and with some of these companies having more cash than sense, the former only happens because of the apparent need to always make more money. And AEW doesn’t even have that excuse because they’re not owned by another company or public on the stock market. |
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Post by Celexa Bliss on Apr 2, 2024 19:34:01 GMT -5
The NJPW way of contracts... The guaranteed contracts felt more like a selling point to attract talent, and now that seems to be gone. I’m not against guaranteed contracts and we’re at a point where not offering them is basically sending us back to the “Hot Dog and Handshake” era with billions of dollars instead of millions and this isn’t even just a pro wrestling issue (comic book creators, animators, video game developers, all treated like crap and being paid like crap unless you’re the tippity top of the field and getting consistent work), it’s just my opinion of it all. Releases should only happen in desperate times or if someone f***s up in a certain way and with some of these companies having more cash than sense, the former only happens because of the apparent need to always make more money. And AEW doesn’t even have that excuse because they’re not owned by another company or public on the stock market.Which is why I think the new COO took a look at the books and said, "you need to cut people". Which, yeah, makes sense, fine. But Tony should've held a meeting with talent first, let them know that this would be happening, instead of just doing it out of the blue with no warning. I don't begrudge him for making the cuts, probably should've happened sooner, with how bloated the roster is. But just doing it with no warning, after touting that they would never do this, is a dick move. It also makes me wonder why they didn't just give the people who wanted out their releases, like Miro, Malakai and Buddy? Like, yeah, WWE will probably rehire them, but if they're not happy in your company, why keep them around? Especially Miro, who has been the most vocal about it publicly. Once he made the comments in relation to Meat Madness, they should've just agreed to terms on his release. At least Malakai and Buddy are playing ball. |
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Post by THE FVNKER on Apr 2, 2024 19:43:00 GMT -5
I’m not against guaranteed contracts and we’re at a point where not offering them is basically sending us back to the “Hot Dog and Handshake” era with billions of dollars instead of millions and this isn’t even just a pro wrestling issue (comic book creators, animators, video game developers, all treated like crap and being paid like crap unless you’re the tippity top of the field and getting consistent work), it’s just my opinion of it all. Releases should only happen in desperate times or if someone f***s up in a certain way and with some of these companies having more cash than sense, the former only happens because of the apparent need to always make more money. And AEW doesn’t even have that excuse because they’re not owned by another company or public on the stock market.Which is why I think the new COO took a look at the books and said, "you need to cut people". Which, yeah, makes sense, fine. But Tony should've held a meeting with talent first, let them know that this would be happening, instead of just doing it out of the blue with no warning. I don't begrudge him for making the cuts, probably should've happened sooner, with how bloated the roster is. But just doing it with no warning, after touting that they would never do this, is a dick move. It also makes me wonder why they didn't just give the people who wanted out their releases, like Miro, Malakai and Buddy? Like, yeah, WWE will probably rehire them, but if they're not happy in your company, why keep them around? Especially Miro, who has been the most vocal about it publicly. Once he made the comments in relation to Meat Madness, they should've just agreed to terms on his release. At least Malakai and Buddy are playing ball. I’m going to just stop myself after this one because I’m either just not articulating my point well or it’s just a bad one, I’m willing to concede that it’s either but regardless, it’s my main talking point: In regards to what I highlighted - unless TK/AEW/whoever are prepared to face litigation from the released over this, there is almost a 100% certainty that the contracts state that they can be terminated for various reasons (likely ‘without cause’ or some other verbiage that gives AEW the legal right to do just what they have done). Does that fly in the face of what Tony said? Yeah, I guess. I will offer that it would’ve been courteous, and also the right thing to do for Tony to make it known once again that this would be coming. However, positing that it does state that, which any reasonable person would assume it does, the talent(s) who signed the contract consensually should’ve understood that and be prepared for that to be a risk/possibility. It happens everywhere when contracts are signed. The contract is what holds the weight. |
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Fade
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by Fade on Apr 2, 2024 19:55:37 GMT -5
I already stated this earlier but I’m absolutely boggled at how anyone sees AEW as morally un-just in this situation. AEW is a private company and these guys are independent contractors. The whole relationship is predicated on the fact that the employer can terminate a contract at any time. They aren’t hourly employees. I get that it sucks. I hate it for their families, I hate it for TK and AEW. I’m sure no one on either side of this is happy that it happened, but it did and it doesn’t make anyone morally corrupt. Moreover, I think it makes more sense to let a handful of people go who aren’t huge names/draws/salaries as opposed to guys with a higher profile. I don’t even think it needs to be explained why. I’ll say it again.. I’ve seen the mobs of some of you come after people on here: I hate it for those affected, and I hate how it will affect them. But this is business, guys. The real world. Nah, this isn’t crazy thing at all. Sound. Logical. You can sympathize with those affected. Most of us have been there to some degree. It can be world shattering but any nameless voice can think with nuance and see it from a business pov. I understand people getting cut. It’s a business and it sucks. But people are absolutely right to be pissed off that they’ve been cut after the boss specifically says it would never happen. Even more so that there was apparently no prior warning to the talent that this was something that was about to happen. This the sucky part. Cuz it may have led some of those into a false sense of comfort and reliability. And as others have brought up, Tony’s said a lot of things and gone back on them. If there’s any silver lining A. The industry is quite healthy. Could see these individuals bouncing back somewhere. B. People on the roster (especially at a lower level) know the truth now. |
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Post by Ronny Rayguns Is All Elite on Apr 2, 2024 20:01:32 GMT -5
Saying "I'm never going to __________"
Is a dumb/unrealistic thing to say in the first place when running any sort of company.
I'm legit curious about the length of time/money that was remaining on these folks contracts and if it really even saved them THAT much money in the long run.
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Apr 2, 2024 20:03:48 GMT -5
Unfortunately, "hire everyone, never let anyone go" is a nice idea in principle but AEW is still a business There was a lot about early AEW that was "nice in principle, but not realistic" that I felt about their "wrestling promotion for wrestlers" thought process and the moral pedestal the fans put them on as the "progressive wrestling company". It's kind of what made me leary about going, for lack of a better word, All in on this company. That and the Hate boner for WWE many people had at the time. I think what we're seeing now and over the last few months is "Oh, that's why WWE does that bullshit". I don't think anyone thought cuts should never happen, WWE cutting what felt like a quarter of their roster during COVID was just incredibly shitty optics. |
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Kalmia
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Post by Kalmia on Apr 2, 2024 20:06:25 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is saying AEW can't legally do this. Nobody is saying it's a bad business decision either.
What's good for business and what's good for the individual workers are two different things. We're just "taking the side" of the workers. Yes, we know the pro wrestling world isn't like that. Yes, we know that million/billion dollar companies don't give a f*** about their employees. Just because we understand the way the world works doesn't mean we have to like or accept it.
No number of unnecessary explanations about business, contracts, or precedence will stop me from thinking things should be better. Will things ever be better? Probably not. AEW was probably the best chance for a major pro wrestling company to be different and now look where we are.
There was probably a way for AEW to negotiate ending some contracts by mutual agreement. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the guys who aren't being used would have requested a release in return for the freedom to work elsewhere anytime they wanted. Instead AEW just fired them out of the blue after five years of not firing anyone other than for disciplinary reasons. It must have been a complete and utter shock. I've been made redundant before and that sucked, but the writing was on the wall so it was hardly a surprise when it happened. This all came out of nowhere.
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Post by kingoftheindies on Apr 2, 2024 20:41:18 GMT -5
genuinely asking, how often were WWE talent like this when they were let go? i don't blame henry either and that slim j thread ruined my whole day but is it common for let go people on the other side of the fence to be this outwardly disappointed/upset? There have been a couple that were clearly upset, but most seem to be more relieved than upset as the experiences in WWE tended to go south quick... and let's also be clear most of those are people who were released while Vince was still in charge. Dunno how things are different now, but even as recently as 2021 most people were more or less just glad to be out. Anthony Henry release sucks cause he is injured. BUt I also remember him praising Tony Khan and AEW for how well they treated him in the past and how previously he got hurt when on a PPA deal and Tony covered the surgery and paid him until he could wrestle, so I'm pretty sure getting released stings. The Slim J thread sucked too, epsecially cause he's a guy who legit this was his only look at a "major" company since the Asylum days of TNA. I think many are more disappointed because if nothing else AEW has always honored contracts so seeing cuts made are gonna be disappointing. I think people get it, and realize it's gonna happen eventually, but still gonna be negativity especially when wrestlers react how Henry and Slim J did. I will say this, for Heny it's tough not to say AEW doesn't look bad since he is injured. But I also am curious for more details to come out aside from "AEW is evaluating and wanting to make decisions that make most sense for wrestlers and company" |
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Post by polarbearpete on Apr 2, 2024 21:11:03 GMT -5
I already stated this earlier but I’m absolutely boggled at how anyone sees AEW as morally un-just in this situation. AEW is a private company and these guys are independent contractors. The whole relationship is predicated on the fact that the employer can terminate a contract at any time. They aren’t hourly employees. I get that it sucks. I hate it for their families, I hate it for TK and AEW. I’m sure no one on either side of this is happy that it happened, but it did and it doesn’t make anyone morally corrupt. Moreover, I think it makes more sense to let a handful of people go who aren’t huge names/draws/salaries as opposed to guys with a higher profile. I don’t even think it needs to be explained why. I’ll say it again.. I’ve seen the mobs of some of you come after people on here: I hate it for those affected, and I hate how it will affect them. But this is business, guys. The real world. You’re talking about business and legalities, not moral corruptness. It can make both business sense and be legal, but not morally strong. |
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Post by Dave the Dave on Apr 2, 2024 21:14:52 GMT -5
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Apr 2, 2024 23:43:30 GMT -5
I mean, keeping it a buck, how does it make business sense to cut dudes apparently making so little, they are still working a second job?
I think that’s another stinging aspect of this, it’s very corporate in how cold and calculated removing the literal bottom rung employees in an effort to offset the massive pay of those at the top.
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Post by markymark on Apr 2, 2024 23:57:09 GMT -5
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lucas_lee
Hank Scorpio
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Post by lucas_lee on Apr 3, 2024 1:04:27 GMT -5
I mean, keeping it a buck, how does it make business sense to cut dudes apparently making so little, they are still working a second job? I think that’s another stinging aspect of this, it’s very corporate in how cold and calculated removing the literal bottom rung employees in an effort to offset the massive pay of those at the top. Yeah thats where I'm at with this. It makes no sense to cut the lower lower guys while keeping dudes who don't want to be here. It makes little to no sense. Especially Anthony Henry. |
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Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-]
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Post by Xxcjb01xX [PIECE OF: SH-] on Apr 3, 2024 1:15:49 GMT -5
I mean, keeping it a buck, how does it make business sense to cut dudes apparently making so little, they are still working a second job? I think that’s another stinging aspect of this, it’s very corporate in how cold and calculated removing the literal bottom rung employees in an effort to offset the massive pay of those at the top. Yeah thats where I'm at with this. It makes no sense to cut the lower lower guys while keeping dudes who don't want to be here. It makes little to no sense. Especially Anthony Henry. I wonder if there's a kickback to their deals if they're cut early or without proper cause, and maybe they even know that Idk might not be but it could be an incentive to not release certain talents early or "give them what they want" when they bitch and moan. |
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