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Post by mysterydriver on Sept 9, 2007 9:39:27 GMT -5
*Stops picking nose* Cool. Shake on it? Anyway, I'm not worried about it. I never minded Triple H's runs, but the hate for him did sneak into my system just a little bit. You know, like a flu shot. Back to topic, the reason credibility may have been "low" for Flair could be the fact that WWE has had him losing to people like Rico over the years. It's hard to call yourself the best when you lose to The Flamboyant Rico. Sure, most people probably don't remember the match, but they know (KNOW) that Flair isn't what he used to be. He doesn't have his aura anymore. Mostly from the booking that he had. I talk to "wrestling fans" all the time and he's "Old Man Flair." The last time he got brought up in conversation by anyone other than me, it was because Khali clawed him. ... Dear goodness. If he's gone, his last moment was The Great Khali "crushing" his skull. EDIT: I'm such a slow typist. Rico has already been brought up!
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Post by chickenwhopper on Sept 9, 2007 9:40:05 GMT -5
I wouldn't say give him the belt, because at this point, he doesn't need it. He doesn't necessarily have to beat "top guys" left and right, either. If he works with a mid-card guy, all the announcer has to say is that he lost to Ric Flair, and many have been on that end of things over the years, putting over Flair's ability to know all the tricks. Having a cagey vet outfoxing the young guys has been done many times with people with far less name value. If he works consistantly with young guys, they get to learn from him, and is somebody getting zero push going to be harmed by a loss to Flair when they'd just as soon be jobbed to someone else anyway? Plus, as has been said, whomever beats him in his final match gets a major rub out of it. Exactly. Flair doesn't need to prove anything other than giving someone a huge rub in the end. I wonder if the "Nature Boy" persona would ever be given to someone as it was given to Flair?
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Post by skillz on Sept 9, 2007 10:01:04 GMT -5
Agreed. Hogan can get away with it because of his name. He is the biggest name in wrestling history and was smart enough to protect his credibility (i.e. not jobbing clean to Rico). Hogan is the exception in wrestling, not the norm. HHH is right. Flair going over a younger star is unrealistic at this point. He's jobbed so much over the years and doesn't have the body to make up for his noticeable aging. The fact that Flair's name is greatly overrated (when has he ever made money for the WWF/E?) is an influence as well. I'm not sure I can follow you on the Hogan point. You're saying that, since he refused to job for so many years, he retains the credibility to not job now? By that standard, the Rock lost quite a few tiems to people lower on the card than him, so should he come back, he can't be seen as credible. Rock never lost credibility. While Rock did lose too much, he didn't lose a lot. The last two times Rock came back, he left by jobbing clean to Lesnar and Goldberg, but he was always smart enough to look strong before that point (beating Austin at WM, beating Taker/Angle to win the title, etc). That's not the equivalent of jobbing clean to the low-end talent that Flair has jobbed to without any build-up. The fact that Rock is young and still looks like a wrestler kind of helps too if he ever decided to come back. As for Hogan, he can go on nostalgia runs and maintain credibility because of his name and the fact that he didn't job himself out too much (outside of 2002 when he lost to Rock, Taker, Lesnar, HHH, and tapped out to Angle in a span of a few months). Not to mention Hogan is the biggest name in wrestling history, so again, he's the exception to the rule, not the norm. What people need to understand about jobbing is that a wrestler has to maintain credibility with the audience to make his "jobs" meaningful. Mick Foley can never main event another show ever again, or even be looked at as a threat to win a match. Same with Flair. Why? They don't have the credibility with the audience anymore. If Flair main evented a show with Cena, does it draw money? Would fans ponder the outcome? Of course not. Now, replace Flair's name with Hogan in that example, and everything changes. Why? Hogan kept his credibility. I'll use another example: Undertaker. How many times has Undertaker jobbed? Very few. If he stared losing to everyone with a pulse (like Flair and Foley do), then his credibility would drop dramatically and he'd have no drawing ability anymore. And another thing people tend to miss is Flair's name value. Just how big of a name is he in WWF/E standards? Not very big. Most of his important runs came in the NWA/WCW. Outside of RR 1992, he hasn't done anything noteworthy in the WWF/E, and the newer fans will only associate him with being the old "whoo" guy that loses a lot and HHH's lackey from 2002-2004.
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Sept 9, 2007 10:03:27 GMT -5
If Hogan can credibly beat younger superstars then Ric Flair can too... Yeah, but that was partly what finished off WCW. I doubt Vince would let Flair go roughshod over everyone, a fluke win here and there wouldn't hurt at all. It's not like Flair's MO is to destroy people, he's just crafty and would do anything to win, whether it's brass knucks or feet on the ropes. But at this stage, Flair's been overexposed and been made to look like crap as he's jobbed to everyone from Rico to Kenny Dykstra and their careers didn't skyrocket afterwards, so his name doesn't mean a whole lot, so I could understand their concerns.
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Post by samachine on Sept 9, 2007 10:18:23 GMT -5
If Hogan can credibly beat younger superstars then Ric Flair can too... Hogan is an over-the-top entity character. He's still fairly big and his moves have always been promoted as 'devestating'. Flair was just a good wrestler with an attitude problem, I'd buy Hogan beating a young guy over Flair. I'm glad they didn't do the angle, I wouldn't want to job to Flair in his current state either. And since people are mentioning double standard lately, why's it ok for Flair to beat young guys but not Hogan? Hogan's was made more believable by his character, where as nowadays Flair can only do the folllowing ) Woo, Chop, take a back body drop, be thrown off the turnbuckle.
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Kae
Dennis Stamp
Posts: 3,610
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Post by Kae on Sept 9, 2007 10:34:24 GMT -5
A tribrand, retirement angle would have been interesting to watch, and would have brought a fresh element to shows that can get a little stale. I'm not sure if it would have been the best idea from a kayfabe perspective, though. Whoever beat Flair would have got a huge rub from it, but what about the other men who lost to a man obviously past his physical prime, even if he cheated in all the matches? If it had been five years ago, I would have said "sure, run with it," but Flair isn't what he used to be in the ring and it's beginning to show. Basically, I believe in the old-school maxim that you go out on your back.
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Post by tibbo on Sept 9, 2007 11:04:43 GMT -5
They could always have him announce his final match, then somehow win the Rumble (that way no-one would have to job to him and it is far more realistic) and then have Orton beat him at 'Mania to complete his 'Legend Killer' gimmick.
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Post by paragon on Sept 9, 2007 11:14:00 GMT -5
Basically, Flair would lose a match, snap, and claim that the next time he lost he would retire. He would then go onto a winning streak that would cross over all three brands, with guys trying to be the guy to beat Flair, and Flair finally losing in a high profile match, possibly for a belt, at Mania, with him getting into the HOF the night before. This is certainly better constructed, but it reminds me of the WCW angle where Russo said he would fire Curt Hennig after he lost his next match, and then Mr. P went on a winning streak for a while.
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Post by tarheelfan on Sept 9, 2007 11:27:55 GMT -5
Number one. Hogan and Flair are the two biggest names in wrestling since 1980 with Hogan arguably being the biggest name in wrestling ever. HHH will never be in Flair's league when it comes to legacy. HHH is his own era is still in the shadow of Austin and the Rock. Plus, Flair wrestled in a time where the belt had more meaning(even if Flair was mostly not in the WWE).
But as big as a Flair mark I have been the past twenty years, I think it is time for Flair to call it quits. No question he is over more than 90 percent of the roster and can still put on a more entertaining match than 90 percent of the roster. But Flair should be remembered as a career main eventer that he was and he should not constantly end his career by jobbing to wrestlers he would have beat with ease in his youth.
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Hiroshi Hase
Patti Mayonnaise
The Good Ol' Days
Posts: 30,755
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Sept 9, 2007 11:29:37 GMT -5
Basically, Flair would lose a match, snap, and claim that the next time he lost he would retire. He would then go onto a winning streak that would cross over all three brands, with guys trying to be the guy to beat Flair, and Flair finally losing in a high profile match, possibly for a belt, at Mania, with him getting into the HOF the night before. This is certainly better constructed, but it reminds me of the WCW angle where Russo said he would fire Curt Hennig after he lost his next match, and then Mr. P went on a winning streak for a while. Actually he didn't, it was if Hennig was pinned, he'd have to retire, but he'd win some matches and sometimes he win or lose by DQ or countout, till Buff Bagwell beat him at Mayhem 99, then he swerved and turned heel the next night joining up with Russo or (The Power that be at the time) in his stable.
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Post by Michael Coello on Sept 9, 2007 11:31:33 GMT -5
In a world where we have a Boogeyman who eats worms, a zombie returning from the dead, Samoan savages with grills, king, queens, monsters, maniacs, & leprechauns, they're worried about Credibility?
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Post by paragon on Sept 9, 2007 11:33:48 GMT -5
This is certainly better constructed, but it reminds me of the WCW angle where Russo said he would fire Curt Hennig after he lost his next match, and then Mr. P went on a winning streak for a while. Actually he didn't, it was if Hennig was pinned, he'd have to retire, but he'd win some matches and sometimes he win or lose by DQ or countout, till Buff Bagwell beat him at Mayhem 99, then he swerved and turned heel the next night joining up with Russo or (The Power that be at the time) in his stable. Shows how much I was paying attention to WCW at that point. ;D
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AriadosMan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Your friendly neighborhood superhero
Posts: 15,620
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Post by AriadosMan on Sept 9, 2007 12:02:44 GMT -5
Anyone else think its interesting that everyone seems to be leaving WWE at the same time?
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Post by paragon on Sept 9, 2007 12:08:42 GMT -5
Anyone else think its interesting that everyone seems to be leaving WWE at the same time? Who's "everyone"?
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Post by Shy Guy on Sept 9, 2007 12:19:02 GMT -5
If Hogan can credibly beat younger superstars then Ric Flair can too... hbk doesn't count as a "younger superstar"
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AriadosMan
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Your friendly neighborhood superhero
Posts: 15,620
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Post by AriadosMan on Sept 9, 2007 12:30:31 GMT -5
Anyone else think its interesting that everyone seems to be leaving WWE at the same time? Who's "everyone"? "Everyone" is somewhat of an exaggeration, but RVD, King Booker, and now Flair have all left in one year...it seems like there's a mass exodus going on this year. I don't think its entirely linked to the Wellness Policy, either.
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Bub (BLM)
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Fed. Up.
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Post by Bub (BLM) on Sept 9, 2007 12:36:13 GMT -5
"Everyone" is somewhat of an exaggeration, but RVD, King Booker, and now Flair have all left in one year...it seems like there's a mass exodus going on this year. I don't think its entirely linked to the Wellness Policy, either. Certainly not. Van Dam, Booker T, and Flair have all been pissed on in one form or another over the past 13 months or so. RVD came back from suspension and had a 4 month buildup fued with Big Show for the ECW Title, only for them to bring in Lashley and hand him Van Dam's spot. Booker went from being World Champion to midcard fodder, then moved to a show where he'd get lost in the shuffle, then all that bullshit with his school. And Flair, well Flair has been misused for a LONG time. I do NOT have any desire to see Ric Flair as a midcarder. When Hogan comes back, he's sure as hell not going to fued with Kenny Dykstra or Carlito, and he sure as hell isn't going to job to them either. Flair cemented his spot as a main-event wrestler before most of the guys he's jobbed to lately were out of elementary school.
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Post by tna on Sept 9, 2007 13:13:51 GMT -5
The Austin idea sounds like a great storyline for the WM build.
While I've wished Flair would hang it up for a while now, I'll still miss him.
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Post by smartcenadude on Sept 9, 2007 13:19:27 GMT -5
I think he could believably beat the younger guys by being THE DIRTIEST PLAYER IN THE THE GAME! WOOOOOOOOOOO! this is true, and arn as a manager couldve worked. flair couldve always sold the winstreak like a madman too, but oh well.
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Chainsaw
T
A very BAD man.
It is what it is
Posts: 90,480
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Post by Chainsaw on Sept 9, 2007 13:23:13 GMT -5
Flair quit after having his big retirement angle shot down numerous times. Austin was pissed that Flair wasn't going to be at Mania this past year, and he came up with an idea to build to Flair's retirement at Mania 24. Basically, Flair would lose a match, snap, and claim that the next time he lost he would retire. He would then go onto a winning streak that would cross over all three brands, with guys trying to be the guy to beat Flair, and Flair finally losing in a high profile match, possibly for a belt, at Mania, with him getting into the HOF the night before. Vince was said to have loved the idea, and when pitching it he mentioned it was Austins, and the decisions were made to go ahead with the angle. That, obviously, never happened, and that initially pissed flair off. Once he was moved to Smackdown, the idea was to push him as the Babe Ruth of Wrestling, but that never happened either. The retirement angle was, again, brought up, but never moved on. Flair was also pissed about being left off the Columbia SC taping, because he could have been the second most over guy there, and also about losing clean to Finlay. Also, Flair was upset with Triple H saying that Flair can't beat top guys at his age because it is a credibility issue. Flair is said to be content with staying away and getting his finance business off the ground. Vince is pissed because Flair owes him money from when Vince helped him with the IRS and his court charges. wrestling observer newsletter You know HHH is right...Flair couldn't believably beat the yonger guys... Wow, if they had done this right, this would have been angle of the year. It's a shame it looks like it'll never happen. WWE must be allergic to great ideas right now. And I think HHH is full of it. Just look at the age of some of the guys over in Mexico and Japan. Having a figure-4 leglock as your finisher pretty much sells that you can beat any guy at any time. Wait...Flair is starting a finances business? Really?
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