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Post by Buck-toothed Bastard on Sept 25, 2007 14:41:24 GMT -5
Seems historically that the fans would dictate who got the pushes and the main event spots.
The most famous instance of "Vince vs The Fans" was the Lex Luger/Bret Hart situation of 1993/1994. Vince OH SO BADLY wanted Luger to be his next Hogan, but the fans rejected him in favor of Bret. When they both won the 1994 Royal Rumble, the fans were supposed to be 50/50 for both men, but in reality it was clear that the crowd was behind Hart going to Wrestlemania. Eventually, Vince gave up on Luger and gave the fans what they wanted.
He also did the same with Shawn Michaels and Chris Benoit, despite his better instincts to push hosses like Kevin Nash and HHH as champions.
The fans also dictated the pushes of Austin and The Rock. WWE was clueless on how to push both men . Even after his Austin 3:16 speech, Stone Cold languished around in Free-For-All squashes with Yokozuna until McMahon had no choice but to give him main event status. And The Rock was just thrown in The Nation as "Random Black Guy #5" until the fans caught onto his character and cheered him out the building. The same went for The New Age Outlaws, Hardy Boyz and several others.
Today, it seems like Vince is saying "You'll cheer who I want you to cheer dammit". The insistence on Cena remaining as a face champion, flying in the face of all logic as either booking him as a psycho heel who snaps under pressure, or having him chasing the title rather than holding it. The likes of Lashley and Orton in the main events, while clear favorites like Punk, Morrison, etc are relegated to ECW or midcards.
Anyone know why? Is it another egotistical effort by Vince to prove he can make stars? That he knows what the fans want better than we do? Seems coincidental that the era that they gave the fans everything they wanted became the most successful era in wrestling, and now that they are forcing the fans to digest what they hate, wreslting is in a huge slump.
It ain't rocket science.
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Post by leemir on Sept 25, 2007 14:43:19 GMT -5
Punk is one who seems to be overcoming this with the fans deciding his push. Even if it's only on ECW.
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Post by Mr. Mediocre on Sept 25, 2007 14:44:31 GMT -5
Punk is one who seems to be overcoming this with the fans deciding his push. Even if it's only on ECW. I agree, albeit slightly. If the WWE was listening, Punk would be tearing up Raw or SD instead of ECW, though as a trade-off, he wouldn't be top dog on either brand.
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Post by plushtar on Sept 25, 2007 14:44:37 GMT -5
Do you start a new thread for every thought you have?
I see it as either: a. There is no competetion for Vince so he is complacent. b. Vince really just books for himself and WWE Creative are Yes-Men.
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Post by Buck-toothed Bastard on Sept 25, 2007 14:47:07 GMT -5
Do you start a new thread for every thought you have? I see it as either: a. There is no competetion for Vince so he is complacent. b. Vince really just books for himself and WWE Creative are Yes-Men. Just getting some discussion going, don't be mean.
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Mr. Mediocre
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Post by Mr. Mediocre on Sept 25, 2007 14:47:31 GMT -5
I agree with thought A.
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Post by Tapout on Sept 25, 2007 14:50:08 GMT -5
Wha?
He who has the book, books the matches. Bottom line.
It's always been that way.
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Post by Vanilla Gorilla on Sept 25, 2007 14:51:49 GMT -5
Batista and Eddie Guerrero both come to mind.
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 25, 2007 14:52:35 GMT -5
It's like this with all wrestling.
I doubt fans were clammering for the Gagnes as the top stars in AWA.
Sometimes, more than just cheers dictate pushes. Merchandise sales, reliability, work attitude, and more can be rewarded.
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Post by Arturo Classico on Sept 25, 2007 14:52:41 GMT -5
The problem is really WWE has no other option to push Orton, Batista, Cena and HHH because they are basically the only ones that get some sort of reaction from the crowd. It's sort of what Rick Patino said about to Celtics fans. I mean whatever choice do they have? They don't have Foley, Austin, Rock or Jericho as maineventers and Undertaker can only do so much so whatever choice does WWE have? All they need to do is make stars out of Punk, Kennedy, Morrison, Hardy, Thorn, MVP, Santino, and Burke than everything will be fine for WWE. They are just in a rough patch with no one really better to take the title off Batista and Cena.
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Post by Timmy8271 on Sept 25, 2007 14:54:39 GMT -5
He stopped listening in March 2001 when WCW died. Even if he dressed up Kevin Thorn as Turd Sandwich and made him champion, people would still watch.
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Post by Mr. Mediocre on Sept 25, 2007 14:55:35 GMT -5
The problem is really WWE has no other option to push Orton, Batista, Cena and HHH because they are basically the only ones that get some sort of reaction from the crowd. It's sort of what Rick Patino said about to Celtics fans. I mean whatever choice do they have? They don't have Foley, Austin, Rock or Jericho as maineventers and Undertaker can only do so much so whatever choice does WWE have? All they need to do is make stars out of Punk, Kennedy, Morrison, Hardy, Thorn, MVP, Santino, and Burke than everything will be fine for WWE. They are just in a rough patch with no one really better to take the title off Batista and Cena. This is true to an extent. But some of these guys ARE getting reactions. Both Hardys, MVP, Kennedy, and to an extent Punk are getting crowd reactions. I would argue, though, that these guys aren't being booked properly and thus the reactions they COULD be getting are being thrown away. That's just me, though.
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Post by Sigma: Current SRW Champ! on Sept 25, 2007 14:58:46 GMT -5
Yeah, it's almost time for such a thing to happen. Cena needs either to lose the belt or turn hell between No Mercy or Royal Rumble 2008. Aside from that, if they continue, then more people will turn on Cena, and who knows maybe dictate that they will cheer for Randy Orton when he wins the belt (albeit unlikely that may seem)
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Post by Bobafett on Sept 25, 2007 16:34:34 GMT -5
well look at how much pops the Hardys get..can you imagine the Pop Matt Hardy would get if he won the World title? Jeff i'm not as sure about..but they have been getting crazy reactions for nearly a decade and deserve a chance (and don't give me not championship material crap..if Khali can be a champ, if cena can be a champ..if Batista cam..at least Matt can )
CM Punk.... when someone gets more pops than DX (ok it was in Philly..but none the less ) its time to give the kid a real go at it
but Vnce is crazy..didn't he tell RVD it was Vince that got people to chant e-c-dub for all these years?
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Post by mysterydriver on Sept 25, 2007 16:52:15 GMT -5
They listen to the fans when it values them.
An example from the 80s:
Hulk Hogan went onto the Snake Pit and, in order to set up a feud, Jake DDTed him. The crowd went nuts. Jake had struck out at Hogan and they loved it. They started chanting "DDT! DDT! DDT!"
When Jake walked backstage, Vince told him "Tough break." and they killed the feud before it could even start because Vince wanted Hogan to be the big babyface.
During the 90s, after the steroid trials, it made sense to listen who got a reaction since Vince went on a firing spree after the trail (Warrior and Bulldog being big names gone.) It was a "rebuilding" year, so they focused on who the fans liked and tried to make things work.
With Cena, WWE has made something special. People come to shows to hate Cena while others come to love him. Cena IS an enigma. It is all about the mighty dollar, which makes sense because WWE is a business, and Cena has been crafted into a walking dollar bill.
The fans of Cena buy his merchandice while the haters usually declare their hatred and latch on to however WWE brings up to face him. Or maybe you didn't notice how much the hatred for Randy Orton has subsided with some people since he became the "chosen" one to win the belt. Sure people say he's "improved" but I think there is a deeper psychological reason for the current turnaround for some people.
That's just me, though.
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Post by BrodietheSlayer on Sept 25, 2007 16:53:39 GMT -5
Do you start a new thread for every thought you have? I see it as either: a. There is no competetion for Vince so he is complacent. b. Vince really just books for himself and WWE Creative are Yes-Men.
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Post by DiBiase is Good on Sept 25, 2007 16:54:37 GMT -5
HHH is a hoss?
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Post by Citizen Snips on Sept 25, 2007 16:59:46 GMT -5
while clear favorites like Punk, Morrison, etc are relegated to ECW or midcards. . Huh? Punk is getting there. He gets good reactions, yes. He gets the odd great reaction in Philly, Chicago, etc. But he needs a couple more years before he's getting the huge reactions that his hardcore fans seem to hearing in their head every week. But realistically, he's not even close to the reactions Mick Foley was getting in 1999 as the number 3 face in the company. And who the hell ever reacted to anything John Morrison/Johnny Nitro ever did? To compare him to anyone else on your list is insane.
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Post by SmarkyMark on Sept 25, 2007 17:03:18 GMT -5
He stopped listening in March 2001 when WCW died. Even if he dressed up Kevin Thorn as Turd Sandwich and made him champion, people would still watch. Wrestlemania 24 = ECW Title match: Kevin Thorne as Turd Sandwich vs. Stevie Richards as Giant Douche! BOOK IT!
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Sept 25, 2007 17:09:27 GMT -5
Which fans? We don't even agree on here.
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