incident between Masters and Taker during house sh

[JMA]

Good to see people here aren't letting Taker off the hook. Though I'm sure a lot of wrestlers see this kind of action as proof of "being a real man." Because everyone knows hurting those weaker than you makes you a bad ass.

[ellisdee]

am90 said:

Is it that surprising that Masters didn't sell? Selling seems to be a lost art.

Honestly, I can't think of many wrestlers on today's roster that believably sell. It's something that needs to be brought back.

Simular to what General Zod said,this is down to OVW guys been brought up too early i feel.

With the past before the WWE really depended on a development fed for its new guys,they took guys that had worked for NWA,WCW,ECW etc etc and had experience wrestling for other companies,other countries and different styles and had learnt more. OVW guys often don't have that wide experience.

And i'm not saying "oh it was better back in the day" because all the great talent of today like CM Punk,Alex Shelley,Colt Cabana and Bryan Danielson etc have done the fed tours,ROH,TNA,Japan etc etc which shows a few years of travel is very very good for grooming talent.

[Johnny Danger (Godz)]

chuckymac314 said:

godz said:

I've always felt Holly did a good thing by roughing up these young crybabies. He needs to give them a wakeup call before they get in there with someone who truly DOESN'T care and decides to take a SERIOUS liberty with them....something Holly knows first hand by being dropped on his head by that primadonna Brock Lesnar. If Hardcore didn't care, he wouldn't do anything.

Just my opinion of course.

You forget to mention, of course, that Holly only got dropped on his head by Lesnar because Holly was unprofessionally sandbagging him to teach him some kind of "lesson".

Does that make it okay to try and break someone's neck? And from what I remember, Holly didn't co-operate with the powerbomb because Brock wasn't selling for him.

[Captain Spaulding]

I like Taker but this was a little over the top.

[JMA]

Lesnar was provoked by Holly and responded in kind. Holly got what he deserved.

More wrestlers need to fight back when bullies assault them. Even if they get their asses kicked, they likely won't be messed with again.

[Spankymac is sick of the swiss]

godz said:

chuckymac314 said:

You forget to mention, of course, that Holly only got dropped on his head by Lesnar because Holly was unprofessionally sandbagging him to teach him some kind of "lesson".

Does that make it okay to try and break someone's neck? And from what I remember, Holly didn't co-operate with the powerbomb because Brock wasn't selling for him.

No, that doesn't make it okay, but Lesnar wasn't trying. Holly's neck injury was his own fault. He should have been a professional and went up for the move. Lesnar was the main eventer, Holly was a body for him to pin. That was his role in the match. He went into business for himself, and paid the price.

[The Ichi]

The Brock/Holly incident prooved that Holly isn't cut out for the role of a so-called "enforcer".

[General Zod]

I think roughing the guy up to the point of breaking his nose and (possibly) smurfing his arm up isn't so much going to teach him a lesson and make him want to improve, but drive him away.

No doubt Masters was an idiot for not selling the arm, but come on.

Sorry. It's professional wrestling. Not crochet. As much as I dislike the methodology, it's sometimes needed in order to achieve a goal. Masters has been given an extraordinary opportunity - to be on your TV set each week. Are you pleased with his mediocrity, or do you yearn for something better? If this is the seed that ultimately plants Masters in the right spot, then job done. Mission accomplished. If he leaves at this point, one has to question his passion for the industry that's been overly(IMO) gracious to him thus far.

So you believe Holly is justified for his actions with younger wrestlers?

We're not talking about Hardcore Holly and a group of people who want to be wrestlers. We're talking about a guy who's been on TV for over two years now. I know of a lot of guys who could better fill Master's spot.

But since you did bring up Holly, yes. I think he is justified in working stiff with the students. I can't tell you how many guys up and down, across every state and in every training program, stiff the students to some degree. It's part of the game. Number one, how do you expect the moves to look real if there's no contact? You'd complain if things looked too wimpy as well, wouldn't you? And secondly, the trainers need to know you can take a licking and still keep ticking. You're ultimately going to ply this craft in front of paying customers, night after night. If you can't handle 15 minutes of stiff work for the chance of making thousands of dollars in the WWE, again, I must call into question one's motivation for wanting to be a pro wrestler.

[Johnny Danger (Godz)]

jma said:

Lesnar was provoked by Holly and responded in kind. Holly got what he deserved.

More wrestlers need to fight back when bullies assault them. Even if they get their asses kicked, they likely won't be messed with again.

How in the hell was Holly bullying Lesnar?

I'm also not sure how he got what he deserved, yet, poor Masters is a victim. Not co-operating for a move justifies a broken neck? Just more of the sad IWC bias against Hardcore Holly, because for a "sad bitter old jobber to the stars" he's accomplished more in wrestling than any of us ever will, so everyone has to bitch about him.

Kinda sad, really.


Hey, Tommy Dreamer caned the s*** out of some kids on an episode of Tough Enough, what a bully that Dreamer is.

Benoit and Guerrero chopped the s*** out of Daniel Puder in the Royal Rumble. What out of control, bitter monsters they were.

Perry Saturn tried to kill Mike Bell, but he's an "awesome badass"

[Grotto]

Was anyone actually there to see what really happened? Is there footage of the injury? Do we know for a fact that Taker damaged Masters' arm?

Taker is old school, though. I am not saying you SHOULD break someone up...but doesn't Hogan tell a story of some guy trying to break his leg early on to see if Hogan really wanted to wrestle? How about Stu Hart working people over to the point of physical breakdown in The Dungeon?

Not that any of that is right...but it is old school training. It is the way we still trian animals. Negative, painful reinforcement. I guarantee if Masters and Taker wrestle again...Masters wil sell like Hell.

Again...it may not be right...but it is reality.

[Johnny Danger (Godz)]

grotto said:

Was anyone actually there to see what really happened? Is there footage of the injury? Do we know for a fact that Taker damaged Masters' arm?

It's on the internet. Of course its true.

[ellisdee]

Agreed. Holly is known for been a bitch to new/green guys and it was about time somebody showed him that they were not scared of him. Brock went in as a pro but was antagonized and did what was needed to defend himself.

[Spankymac is sick of the swiss]

godz said:

jma said:

Lesnar was provoked by Holly and responded in kind. Holly got what he deserved.

More wrestlers need to fight back when bullies assault them. Even if they get their asses kicked, they likely won't be messed with again.

How in the hell was Holly bullying Lesnar?

I'm also not sure how he got what he deserved, yet, poor Masters is a victim. Not co-operating for a move justifies a broken neck? Just more of the sad IWC bias against Hardcore Holly, because for a "sad bitter old jobber to the stars" he's accomplished more in wrestling than any of us ever will, so everyone has to bitch about him.

Kinda sad, really.


Hey, Tommy Dreamer caned the s*** out of some kids on an episode of Tough Enough, what a bully that Dreamer is.

Benoit and Guerrero chopped the s*** out of Daniel Puder in the Royal Rumble. What out of control, bitter monsters they were.

Perry Saturn tried to kill Mike Bell, but he's an "awesome badass"

As I remember it, those kids lined up and got into the ring with Dreamer and his cane totally aware of and volunteering for what was gonna happen, which is more than I can say for most of Holly's beatings. Benoit and Guerrero were stiff with Puder for storyline purposes, which I'm sure were discussed backstage beforehand. And no, Saturn wasn't right for what he did to Bell. He's a badass for things he did later in life(IE: No selling bullets to help save someone), but to my knowledge, that was an isolated incident where he lost his temper. Holly apparently just plans crap like this out on his own, because he knows he'll never be punished, and takes liberties with whoever the hell he feels like it. One day he's going to get seriously hurt again, like he did with Lesnar. And I'm not saying that he deservered a broken neck, but he sandbagged a move, knowing full well what could happen if you don't work with your opponent. He may not have deserved it, but it was a stupid move on his part.

[Loki]

Especially because Taker is a 18 years veteran and a locker-room leader in WWE, he'd have NOT reacted that way.

Lecturing Masters backstage after the match? Sure
Some stiff chops and some yelling in the ring? Maybe

But injuring his opponent on purpose is low and unnecessary.

Some are defending him just because he's Taker. JBL and Holly still got tons of crap for backstage rumors and similar incidents.

Edit//

so if it's with the purpose of "teaching" a guy who's been on TV for years, HBK should have broken Cena's leg at WrestleMania...

[Mr. Mediocre]

godz said:

How in the hell was Holly bullying Lesnar?

I'm also not sure how he got what he deserved, yet, poor Masters is a victim. Not co-operating for a move justifies a broken neck? Just more of the sad IWC bias against Hardcore Holly, because for a "sad bitter old jobber to the stars" he's accomplished more in wrestling than any of us ever will, so everyone has to bitch about him.

Kinda sad, really.

The difference between Taker and Masters and Lesnar and Holly is that Taker (apparently - not all the details are available here) was trying to teach Masters a lesson and got out of control, while Lesnar *accidentally* broke Holly's neck because Holly sandbagged him since he thought he should be the one in control of the match's pacing.

These are two totally different things.

[JMA]

godz said:

How in the hell was Holly bullying Lesnar?

I didn't say he was bullying him. I said he provoked him, which he did. The only time I mentioned "bullies" was in saying that wrestlers who ARE confronted with them should fight back.

Kinda sad, really.

It is sad, but not for the reasons you think. People who constantly complain about the IWC simply want to look like they're special (when they're really not) by defending wrestlers the IWC is assumed to hate. These fans fail to realize they too are part of the IWC and their existence is proof that there isn't one opinion among the group.

So yes, it is sad--for them.

Incidentally, let me clear this up: ANY wrestler who attacks another without being provoked is in the wrong. Is that clear enough? No? Then I'll say it once more.

ANY wrestler who attacks another without being provoked is in the wrong.

No alleged "smark hypocrisy" here. It doesn't matter if you suck in the ring or are the second coming of Bret Hart, if you hurt someone without reasonable cause (i.e. self-defense), then you're a dick.

[Johnny Danger (Godz)]

Also, not sure how Holly was sandbagging, cause if you watch the vid, Lesnar had him up fully for the powerbomb and could've done it normally. Holly co-operated, he's got his arms in position and everything

www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3kbXLtdZI4

Lesnar just seemed to enjoy trying to break people's necks. Isn't that right, A-Train?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=7kj69aj0uB4

[Spankymac is sick of the swiss]

jma said:

godz said:

How in the hell was Holly bullying Lesnar?

I didn't say he was bullying him. I said he provoked him, which he did. The only time I mentioned "bullies" was in saying that wrestlers who ARE confronted with them should fight back.

Kinda sad, really.

It is sad, but not for the reasons you think. People who constantly complain about the IWC simply want to look like they're special (when they're really not) by defending wrestlers the IWC is assumed to hate. These fans fail to realize they too are part of the IWC and their existence is proof that there isn't one opinion among the group.

So yes, it is sad--for them.

Incidentally, let me clear this up: ANY wrestler who attacks another without being provoked is in the wrong. Is that clear enough? No? Then I'll say it once more.

ANY wrestler who attacks another without being provoked is in the wrong.

No alleged "smark hypocrisy" here. It doesn't matter if you suck in the ring or are the second coming of Bret Hart, if you hurt someone without reasonable cause (i.e. self-defense), then you're a dick.

This man has wisdom.

[Mr. Mediocre]

jma said:

godz said:

How in the hell was Holly bullying Lesnar?

I didn't say he was bullying him. I said he provoked him, which he did. The only time I mentioned "bullies" was in saying that wrestlers who ARE confronted with them should fight back.

Kinda sad, really.

It is sad, but not for the reasons you think. People who constantly complain about the IWC simply want to look like they're special (when they're really not) by defending wrestlers the IWC is assumed to hate. These fans fail to realize they too are part of the IWC and their existence is proof that there isn't one opinion among the group.

So yes, it is sad--for them.

Incidentally, let me clear this up: ANY wrestler who attacks another without being provoked is in the wrong. Is that clear enough? No? Then I'll say it once more.

ANY wrestler who attacks another without being provoked is in the wrong.

No alleged "smark hypocrisy" here. It doesn't matter if you suck in the ring or are the second coming of Bret Hart, if you hurt someone without reasonable cause (i.e. self-defense), then you're a dick.

Seconded.

[JMA]

loki said:

Some are defending him just because he's Taker. JBL and Holly still got tons of crap for backstage rumors and similar incidents.

Not as much as I expected, though. Thankfully, Taker is getting his share of criticism in the thread.