incident between Masters and Taker during house sh

[randomranter]

I don't mean to sound like I'm coming to Undertaker's defense, because he did go too far.

However, this can't compare to why everybody hops all over Bob Holly or JBL.

Holly and JBL aren't "Locker Room Leaders". They're bullies. Holly doesn't beat up the new guys because they screwed up or something. He does it because he wants to be "Mr. Tough Guy". He does it because he believes that the new guys are "beneath him". He does it.......just because.

JBL does it simply because he's an ass. He knows he doesn't need the WWE, as he makes a significant amount of money in the stock market. He also knows that he's high up the totem pole, and is in that "protected" class of wrestlers that can do no wrong in Vince's eyes and has no realistic chance of being fired. So he picks on the little guys because he can, in essence saying to them "Yeah, I'm picking on you. What are you going to do about it? Go ahead and try......you'll be the one depushed and fired."

There's a difference between someone working stiff because the other guy isn't following directions or doing what they're supposed to be and working stiff to be a bully. Taker was trying to be the former and took it too far. Holly and JBL are in the latter category, and that's why everybody jumps all over them.

[The Ichi]

loki said:

Especially because Taker is a 18 years veteran and a locker-room leader in WWE, he'd have NOT reacted that way.

Lecturing Masters backstage after the match? Sure
Some stiff chops and some yelling in the ring? Maybe

But injuring his opponent on purpose is low and unnecessary.

Some are defending him just because he's Taker. JBL and Holly still got tons of crap for backstage rumors and similar incidents.

Edit//

so if it's with the purpose of "teaching" a guy who's been on TV for years, HBK should have broken Cena's leg at WrestleMania...

Exactly. I'm not saying Master's should have gone unpunished, but I really don't see how legit beating the s*** out of him is going to make him think "Well, golly-gee! Thank you for that kind lesson in discipline, Mr. Undertaker sir, I shall wholeheartidly try my best from now on!". It solves nothing and probably drives him away. I remember Dupree seemed to lose all passion after Douchecore Holly smacked him around for a parking ticket.

Yes, this isn't Ballet, but sometimes these people seriously act like women over the smallest things. There are good ways of discipline and their are bad ways.

[Johnny Danger (Godz)]

jma said:

godz said:

How in the hell was Holly bullying Lesnar?

It is sad, but not for the reasons you think. People who constantly complain about the IWC simply want to look like they're special (when they're really not) by defending wrestlers the IWC is assumed to hate. These fans fail to realize they too are part of the IWC and their existence is proof that there isn't one opinion among the group.

So yes, it is sad--for them.

There's no assumption to it, most people on this board don't seem to care for Holly. I do, and always have, long before I ever began posting here. It has nothing to do with wanting to be "different", I like who I like, and thats really all there is to it. I just really think it's pathetic that someone like Haku for instance has this huge cult following for being a "badass" for ripping out guys teeth and eyes, but, OH NOES HOLLY CHOPPED THAT ROOKIE TOO HARD, HE'S A MONSTER!!!!!!

Tough Enough was a joke, and an insult to anyone who paid their dues, IMO. Hulk Hogan got his leg broke before he even got trained. Ric Flair survived a plane crash. These kids get right on TV before they learn the proper way to tie-up. I see NOTHING wrong with making sure they REALLY want it.

[General Zod]

ANY wrestler who attacks another without being provoked is in the wrong.

You're right. However, I feel it fair to point out that Masters did indeed provoke the Undertaker by making a mockery of the man and the craft that he worked his ass off to help pave for guys like Masters by no selling an offensive moveset; the most basic and rudimentary skill one would think a professional wrestler would have.

Had Masters taken his craft a bit more seriously, this incident (has this even been verified to be true yet?) would never have happened. When Masters failed his objective, he left himself open for immediate corrective measures. They were, afterall, in front of a paying audience.

[jobber2thestars]

I see no reason for Undertaker doing what he did. I could see him being mad if this were on live TV, but it was a house show. The Undertaker could have handled the situation much better. Talking to him backstage would have been a better learning experience for Masters, than dislocating his elbow and breaking his nose.

[Johnny Danger (Godz)]

darthfaker said:

ANY wrestler who attacks another without being provoked is in the wrong.

You're right. However, I feel it fair to point out that Masters did indeed provoke the Undertaker by making a mockery of the man and the craft that he worked his ass off to help pave for guys like Masters by no selling an offensive moveset; the most basic and rudimentary skill one would think a professional wrestler would have.

Had Masters taken his craft a bit more seriously, this incident (has this even been verified to be true yet?) would never have happened. When Masters failed his objective, he left himself open for immediate corrective measures. They were, afterall, in front of a paying audience.

Stop using your damn logic, or else people might have to admit that Masters deserves what he got for no-selling as much as Holly did in their eyes. And that's not good for business.

[Spankymac is sick of the swiss]

godz said:

jma said:

It is sad, but not for the reasons you think. People who constantly complain about the IWC simply want to look like they're special (when they're really not) by defending wrestlers the IWC is assumed to hate. These fans fail to realize they too are part of the IWC and their existence is proof that there isn't one opinion among the group.

So yes, it is sad--for them.

There's no assumption to it, most people on this board don't seem to care for Holly. I do, and always have, long before I ever began posting here. It has nothing to do with wanting to be "different", I like who I like, and thats really all there is to it. I just really think it's pathetic that someone like Haku for instance has this huge cult following for being a "badass" for ripping out guys teeth and eyes, but, OH NOES HOLLY CHOPPED THAT ROOKIE TOO HARD, HE'S A MONSTER!!!!!!

Tough Enough was a joke, and an insult to anyone who paid their dues, IMO. Hulk Hogan got his leg broke before he even got trained. Ric Flair survived a plane crash. These kids get right on TV before they learn the proper way to tie-up. I see NOTHING wrong with making sure they REALLY want it.

Again, I've never seen Haku be anything but professional inside the ring. A little stiffer than most? Maybe, but never to the point of being like Holly. His "tough guy" rep comes outside the ring, beating up guys who probably deserved it and saw it coming, not green rookies in the ring who have no idea what they're in store for when Holly's in a bad mood and needs to get his jollies.

[BayleyTiffyCodyCenaJudyHopps]

Unlike everyone else here, I'm not going to pass any judgements on Bob Holly and JBL since I'm not in the locker rooms with them, nor am I some sort of psychic being who can see into one's soul from hundreds/thousands of miles away.

But from the information we've gotten, I think Taker went overboard with the stiffing. I'm not against it per se, but it sounds as if he snapped at some point.

[Johnny Danger (Godz)]

chuckymac314 said:

godz said:

There's no assumption to it, most people on this board don't seem to care for Holly. I do, and always have, long before I ever began posting here. It has nothing to do with wanting to be "different", I like who I like, and thats really all there is to it. I just really think it's pathetic that someone like Haku for instance has this huge cult following for being a "badass" for ripping out guys teeth and eyes, but, OH NOES HOLLY CHOPPED THAT ROOKIE TOO HARD, HE'S A MONSTER!!!!!!

Tough Enough was a joke, and an insult to anyone who paid their dues, IMO. Hulk Hogan got his leg broke before he even got trained. Ric Flair survived a plane crash. These kids get right on TV before they learn the proper way to tie-up. I see NOTHING wrong with making sure they REALLY want it.

Again, I've never seen Haku be anything but professional inside the ring. A little stiffer than most? Maybe, but never to the point of being like Holly. His "tough guy" rep comes outside the ring, beating up guys who probably deserved it and saw it coming, not green rookies in the ring who have no idea what they're in store for when Holly's in a bad mood and needs to get his jollies.

1 - Who are you, or anyone else, to say who deserves what? No, I've never seen Haku shoot on anyone in the ring to my knowledge, but that doesn't mean people he brutalized on his own time deserved it. You know what that says to me? He was in a bad mood and needed to get his jollies.

2 - Having no idea what they're in store for.....THATS the exact problem. I wouldnt be surprised if those kids thought wrestling would be a fake, easy, painless pay-day. And I'm sure thats what Holly was thinking. Like him or not, you don't work for a multi million dollar organazation for 10+ years if you're a complete dumbass. He has a reason for what he did. He wasn't just kicking some poor kid's ass for fun.

[Spankymac is sick of the swiss]

godz said:

chuckymac314 said:

Again, I've never seen Haku be anything but professional inside the ring. A little stiffer than most? Maybe, but never to the point of being like Holly. His "tough guy" rep comes outside the ring, beating up guys who probably deserved it and saw it coming, not green rookies in the ring who have no idea what they're in store for when Holly's in a bad mood and needs to get his jollies.

1 - Who are you, or anyone else, to say who deserves what? No, I've never seen Haku shoot on anyone in the ring to my knowledge, but that doesn't mean people he brutalized on his own time deserved it. You know what that says to me? He was in a bad mood and needed to get his jollies.

2 - Having no idea what they're in store for.....THATS the exact problem. I wouldnt be surprised if those kids thought wrestling would be a fake, easy, painless pay-day. And I'm sure thats what Holly was thinking. Like him or not, you don't work for a multi million dollar organazation for 10+ years if you're a complete dumbass. He has a reason for what he did. He wasn't just kicking some poor kid's ass for fun.

I gotta tell ya, if I'm a rookie who's gone through training, regardless of how long I've been in the business or how long I've been on tv, I expect my opponent to come in and try to have the best match possible with me, not kick my ass out of the blue to try to prove some fraudulent point. "I kicked his ass to make sure he really wanted it." Bullshit. If he didn't really want it, he wouldn't have gone through the training, he wouldn't be in the ring, and he damn sure would never have made it to television.

[Mr. Mediocre]

chuckymac314 said:

godz said:

1 - Who are you, or anyone else, to say who deserves what? No, I've never seen Haku shoot on anyone in the ring to my knowledge, but that doesn't mean people he brutalized on his own time deserved it. You know what that says to me? He was in a bad mood and needed to get his jollies.

2 - Having no idea what they're in store for.....THATS the exact problem. I wouldnt be surprised if those kids thought wrestling would be a fake, easy, painless pay-day. And I'm sure thats what Holly was thinking. Like him or not, you don't work for a multi million dollar organazation for 10+ years if you're a complete dumbass. He has a reason for what he did. He wasn't just kicking some poor kid's ass for fun.

I gotta tell ya, if I'm a rookie who's gone through training, regardless of how long I've been in the business or how long I've been on tv, I expect my opponent to come in and try to have the best match possible with me, not kick my ass out of the blue to try to prove some fraudulent point. "I kicked his ass to make sure he really wanted it." Bullcrap. If he didn't really want it, he wouldn't have gone through the training, he wouldn't be in the ring, and he damn sure would never have made it to television.

Which brings us back to the original point - when you're in the ring with someone, you don't stiff them just to prove a point. You make sure you and the other guy are as safe as possible.

[Johnny Danger (Godz)]

chuckymac314 said:

godz said:

1 - Who are you, or anyone else, to say who deserves what? No, I've never seen Haku shoot on anyone in the ring to my knowledge, but that doesn't mean people he brutalized on his own time deserved it. You know what that says to me? He was in a bad mood and needed to get his jollies.

2 - Having no idea what they're in store for.....THATS the exact problem. I wouldnt be surprised if those kids thought wrestling would be a fake, easy, painless pay-day. And I'm sure thats what Holly was thinking. Like him or not, you don't work for a multi million dollar organazation for 10+ years if you're a complete dumbass. He has a reason for what he did. He wasn't just kicking some poor kid's ass for fun.

I gotta tell ya, if I'm a rookie who's gone through training, regardless of how long I've been in the business or how long I've been on tv, I expect my opponent to come in and try to have the best match possible with me, not kick my ass out of the blue to try to prove some fraudulent point. "I kicked his ass to make sure he really wanted it." Bullcrap. If he didn't really want it, he wouldn't have gone through the training, he wouldn't be in the ring, and he damn sure would never have made it to television.

Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with you again.

How many of those Tough Enough kids are still around? How many went into the indy circuit, TNA, ROH, Japan, trying for a second chance at WWE? Any of them?

To me, TE was just a Diva Search for guys. Mostly non-fans with good bodies wanting the money.

By the time Holly got to these kids, their training was laughable. I've got friends who've been attending wrestling classes for YEARS they are so dedicated. These kids had, what, days? Weeks? Come on. Tough Enough was a glorified backdoor into the industry and I'm glad its gone.

[ellisdee]

I can see this thread being locked rather soon.

Keep it civil guys.

As far as this is concerned Taker was in the wrong to go so over the top. But Holly and Brock is for another thread,another day.

[celtics543]

Anyone else find it ironic that the Undertaker beat up someone for not selling, when that's basically his whole gimmick.

This is ridiculous. Undertaker shouldn't be trying to hurt someone when he's in the ring with them, just because they forgot to sell an arm injury while they are waiting for a tag. I'm sure that it pissed off a lot of veterens back in the early days of the Undertaker when he would no-sell their finishers and other big moves, but no one decided to try and hurt him.

The most that was needed was a talking to backstage, that way he can hear Masters side of what happened. In the few interviews that I've seen from Masters, he seems like a good guy who really wants to learn how to be a good heel and a good wrestler. I know that 'Taker is a lockerroom leader and he's been one of my favorites for years, but this is not the way to handle things.

I don't know what the moves were that Masters should have been selling, but when I think of Taker's main offense, the only move that comes to mind that affects the arm is the "Old School" top rope walk, and no one really sells that for very long.

I guarantee if Chris Masters had done this to Undertaker for not selling or doing something wrong, we'd see Masters being wished well in his future endeavors this morning, which isn't fair. Undertaker may be a veteren and a legend, but he's getting old and boring quite frankly at this point in his career. I used to be a huge fan of his, but now he really doesn't hold my attention anymore.

I wish he had tried this kind of stunt on Shamrock back in they day, or maybe Angle when he was new, or even Lesnar, because I think they would have torn him apart. 'Taker is a big tough guy, but the other three were all trained amateur wrestlers or "The most dangerous man on the planet".

[Johnny Danger (Godz)]

ellisdee said:

I can see this thread being locked rather soon.

Keep it civil guys.

As far as this is concerned Taker was in the wrong to go so over the top. But Holly and Brock is for another thread,another day.

It's seemed pretty civil to me....I've got nothing against anyone I'm arguing with, they have their opinion, I've got mine....so far I'm fine with everyone.

But to all those here who feels Taker was in the wrong, I'd love to hear the answer to two questions

1 - Why is it okay for Lesnar to break Holly's neck for what he percieved as a lack of selling, but what Taker did is wrong?

2 - If you were in Undertakers shoes, a respected, dominant veteran...and an unskilled newcomer was no-selling your offense and making you look weak in front of a large audience, what would you do?

[Spankymac is sick of the swiss]

explodinglimo said:

chuckymac314 said:

I gotta tell ya, if I'm a rookie who's gone through training, regardless of how long I've been in the business or how long I've been on tv, I expect my opponent to come in and try to have the best match possible with me, not kick my ass out of the blue to try to prove some fraudulent point. "I kicked his ass to make sure he really wanted it." Bullcrap. If he didn't really want it, he wouldn't have gone through the training, he wouldn't be in the ring, and he damn sure would never have made it to television.

Which brings us back to the original point - when you're in the ring with someone, you don't stiff them just to prove a point. You make sure you and the other guy are as safe as possible.

Damn straight. You have to trust the guy you're in the ring with at all times. If you can't trust the guy on the other side of the ring, something's wrong.

[Mr. Mediocre]

godz said:

chuckymac314 said:

I gotta tell ya, if I'm a rookie who's gone through training, regardless of how long I've been in the business or how long I've been on tv, I expect my opponent to come in and try to have the best match possible with me, not kick my ass out of the blue to try to prove some fraudulent point. "I kicked his ass to make sure he really wanted it." Bullcrap. If he didn't really want it, he wouldn't have gone through the training, he wouldn't be in the ring, and he damn sure would never have made it to television.

Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with you again.

How many of those Tough Enough kids are still around? How many went into the indy circuit, TNA, ROH, Japan, trying for a second chance at WWE? Any of them?

To me, TE was just a Diva Search for guys. Mostly non-fans with good bodies wanting the money.

By the time Holly got to these kids, their training was laughable. I've got friends who've been attending wrestling classes for YEARS they are so dedicated. These kids had, what, days? Weeks? Come on. Tough Enough was a glorified backdoor into the industry and I'm glad its gone.

What does Tough Enough have to do with this? Those kids were inadequetly trained, to be sure, but every single person mentioned in this thread though was *actually* trained. Masters went through UPW. Lesnar went through OVW. Cody had his father, OVW, and Al Snow. Hell, if you want to go with other people Holly stiffed in the ring because he could, there's always CM Punk.

[Avalanche Alvarez]

So does this mean he's DEFINITELY gonna get that sombrero we've all been clamoring for?

[Spankymac is sick of the swiss]

explodinglimo said:

godz said:

Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with you again.

How many of those Tough Enough kids are still around? How many went into the indy circuit, TNA, ROH, Japan, trying for a second chance at WWE? Any of them?

To me, TE was just a Diva Search for guys. Mostly non-fans with good bodies wanting the money.

By the time Holly got to these kids, their training was laughable. I've got friends who've been attending wrestling classes for YEARS they are so dedicated. These kids had, what, days? Weeks? Come on. Tough Enough was a glorified backdoor into the industry and I'm glad its gone.

What does Tough Enough have to do with this? Those kids were inadequetly trained, to be sure, but every single person mentioned in this thread though was *actually* trained. Masters went through UPW. Lesnar went through OVW. Cody had his father, OVW, and Al Snow.

Indeed. Not a soul has mentioned the Capotelli incident. You're the one bringing up TE, Godz.

[Johnny Danger (Godz)]

explodinglimo said:

godz said:

Yeah I'm gonna have to disagree with you again.

How many of those Tough Enough kids are still around? How many went into the indy circuit, TNA, ROH, Japan, trying for a second chance at WWE? Any of them?

To me, TE was just a Diva Search for guys. Mostly non-fans with good bodies wanting the money.

By the time Holly got to these kids, their training was laughable. I've got friends who've been attending wrestling classes for YEARS they are so dedicated. These kids had, what, days? Weeks? Come on. Tough Enough was a glorified backdoor into the industry and I'm glad its gone.

What does Tough Enough have to do with this? Those kids were inadequetly trained, to be sure, but every single person mentioned in this thread though was *actually* trained.

Tough Enough has to do with it because....and this may be hard to follow, but....

I'm saying that I'm assuming Hardcore Holly was wanting to find out if these kids "wanted it" bad enough.

Spanky's saying they obviously did, or they wouldn't be there in the first place.

I'm saying I don't buy that, because I don't think most of them attempted to follow their "dreams" after being cut from TE. So they must not've wanted it that bad.