incident between Masters and Taker during house sh

[Mr. Mediocre]

maxnificent said:

So someone getting stiffed is ok if they don't do flips, but if it were to happen to a crusierweight, runs for the hills. I see.

That's absolutely nowhere near what I said.

But thanks for playing.

[Johnny Danger (Godz)]

explodinglimo said:

maxnificent said:

I can just sum up everything easily. Being under 220 pounds or Canadian, English, or Japanese makes you a god. Having muscles makes you a worthless excuse of a human being who should be executed. Anything that's popular or on top sucks.

Taking them a while to think of an excuse I see...

Or actually, the thing is that those guys can actually wrestle. CM Punk, London, Kendrick, etc. they can all put on a good match. Which is why the hypothetical of any of them no-selling anyone, especially an established respected vet like the Undertaker, is ludicrous.

To me, no selling anyone, unless its your gimmick (Hogan,. Taker, etc) is ludicrous, no matter your "workrate". You're still trained, and you still know what is expected of you. How pretty you look or how many backflips you can do or how many high school gyms you sold out before WWE signed you shouldn't be a factor.

[Maxnificent]

So someone getting stiffed is ok if they don't do flips, but if it were to happen to a crusierweight, runs for the hills. I see.


That's absolutely nowhere near what I said.

But thanks for playing."

Haha, typical response.

Damn it, defend the following, because I'm quite curious:
Why is it that when a so-called "hoss" does something, the people here jump all over them, when sometimes a crusierweight can do the same thing or something similar and be defended?

[joeman]

Because cruiserweights can do lifts...duh.

[Mr. Mediocre]

godz said:

explodinglimo said:

Or actually, the thing is that those guys can actually wrestle. CM Punk, London, Kendrick, etc. they can all put on a good match. Which is why the hypothetical of any of them no-selling anyone, especially an established respected vet like the Undertaker, is ludicrous.

To me, no selling anyone, unless its your gimmick (Hogan,. Taker, etc) is ludicrous, no matter your "workrate". You're still trained, and you still know what is expected of you. How pretty you look or how many backflips you can do or how many high school gyms you sold out before WWE signed you shouldn't be a factor.

I agree with that.

What I'm saying is that the smaller guys that everyone here "worships" aren't worshipped because they're small or because they can do flips. They're worshipped because they're good wrestlers who were trained to be good wrestlers and because they were trained to be good wrestlers they wouldn't no sell a respected veteran (if anyone).

maxnificent said:

Damn it, defend the following, because I'm quite curious:
Why is it that when a so-called "hoss" does something, the people here jump all over them, when sometimes a crusierweight can do the same thing or something similar and be defended?

Because people have opinions and are allowed to express them? And can you give me an example? Seriously...this topic is about no-selling and its reprecussions. Anyone who's been trained properly, cruiserweight or not, wouldn't no-sell or make as many rookie mistakes as your typical hoss. Your typical hoss has barely been trained (hence why they're a hoss, and not a big man) and makes stupid mistakes as a result. It's really not their fault...it's more the product of being rushed onto television because of how impressive they look.

[Maxnificent]

My bottom line to all of this is that it's obvious people have a blind bias in their attempts to hate everything, except for what's "underground." There's a group of wrestlers who can do no wrong (but remember one word: Benoit), and there's a group who will be the "victims" of unclever nicknames and being told their matches aren't "five stars."

[tonyexile]

My problem is that guys no sell all the time, whether it be rookies to veterans or veterans to rookies.

yeah, I probably would have roughed him up too, but there's a big difference between hitting a few stiff shots and breaking someone's nose...

wow, i didn't know this thread had so much heat...

my feelings now:

Masters should have sold more

Taker shouldn't have broke his nose (or if this actually didn't happen, he shouldn't have been so stiff to the extent that it was even possible)

Both people are at least slightly to blame, and would be regardless of who's name was in whatever scenario...

[Hiroshi Hase]

explodinglimo said:

godz said:

To me, no selling anyone, unless its your gimmick (Hogan,. Taker, etc) is ludicrous, no matter your "workrate". You're still trained, and you still know what is expected of you. How pretty you look or how many backflips you can do or how many high school gyms you sold out before WWE signed you shouldn't be a factor.

I agree with that.

What I'm saying is that the smaller guys that everyone here "worships" aren't worshipped because they're small or because they can do flips. They're worshipped because they're good wrestlers who were trained to be good wrestlers and because they were trained to be good wrestlers they wouldn't no sell a respected veteran (if anyone).

If I may ask what's your definition of a good wrestler?

[joeman]

explodinglimo said:

godz said:

To me, no selling anyone, unless its your gimmick (Hogan,. Taker, etc) is ludicrous, no matter your "workrate". You're still trained, and you still know what is expected of you. How pretty you look or how many backflips you can do or how many high school gyms you sold out before WWE signed you shouldn't be a factor.

I agree with that.

What I'm saying is that the smaller guys that everyone here "worships" aren't worshipped because they're small or because they can do flips. They're worshipped because they're good wrestlers who were trained to be good wrestlers and because they were trained to be good wrestlers they wouldn't no sell a respected veteran (if anyone).

RVD is worshipped here, and he is a smaller wrestler, yet we all know how he sells, especially when it comes to concussions.

[Johnny Danger (Godz)]

Actually a lot of people here, Spanky in particular (Not trying to call you out, just mentioning you cause you've posted actively in this thread) can't stand RVD.

[Mr. Mediocre]

yjc1019 said:

explodinglimo said:

I agree with that.

What I'm saying is that the smaller guys that everyone here "worships" aren't worshipped because they're small or because they can do flips. They're worshipped because they're good wrestlers who were trained to be good wrestlers and because they were trained to be good wrestlers they wouldn't no sell a respected veteran (if anyone).

If I may ask what's your definition of a good wrestler?

A good wrestler is someone who can put on a match that entertains people. Whether that's through being a good in-ring psychologist (ex: Jake Roberts), through using power moves (ex: Kane, Kevin Nash when he was younger), through brawling (ex: Steve Austin), through technical maneuvers (ex: Bryan Danielson), through high flying/high risk stuff (ex: The Hardys), or through pure charisma (ex: Hulk Hogan, while not my cup of tea, is a good professional wrestler and made you care about the match he was in).

EDIT: Forgot my most important detail. A good wrestler does all of that...and then makes the fans care about the match.

[krazysane]

who cares. If you no sell the undertaker you really need to get your ass kicked. THats just how it goes. I mean come on. Its the undertaker of all wrestlers. If i no selled him I would either have the biggest pair of balls ever or I am really looking to get my ass kicked. Either way, thats just bussiness. Masters will just have to learn from this. Hell masters might even come back better and smarter after this and might help him in the long run of his still early lackluster career.

[Kevin Hamilton]

Haven't read past the initial post, but have we gotten to the double standard of how this was ok, yet Holly is still a bully yet?

[Hiroshi Hase]

jackrabbitslim said:

Haven't read past the initial post, but have we gotten to the double standard of how this was ok, yet Holly is still a bully yet?

No, I don't think so at all as far as I've read.

[joeman]

jackrabbitslim said:

Haven't read past the initial post, but have we gotten to the double standard of how this was ok, yet Holly is still a bully yet?

Yes, the excuse was that Holly is a "bully" despite the fact that other old school wrestlers have used his technique in the past.

[joeman]

randomranter said:

I don't mean to sound like I'm coming to Undertaker's defense, because he did go too far.

However, this can't compare to why everybody hops all over Bob Holly or JBL.

Holly and JBL aren't "Locker Room Leaders". They're bullies. Holly doesn't beat up the new guys because they screwed up or something. He does it because he wants to be "Mr. Tough Guy". He does it because he believes that the new guys are "beneath him". He does it.......just because.

JBL does it simply because he's an ass. He knows he doesn't need the WWE, as he makes a significant amount of money in the stock market. He also knows that he's high up the totem pole, and is in that "protected" class of wrestlers that can do no wrong in Vince's eyes and has no realistic chance of being fired. So he picks on the little guys because he can, in essence saying to them "Yeah, I'm picking on you. What are you going to do about it? Go ahead and try......you'll be the one depushed and fired."

There's a difference between someone working stiff because the other guy isn't following directions or doing what they're supposed to be and working stiff to be a bully. Taker was trying to be the former and took it too far. Holly and JBL are in the latter category, and that's why everybody jumps all over them.

Saved you the trouble Jackrabbit $lim

[Hiroshi Hase]

I remember Maven saying during his shoot that he didn't think Holly was a bully at all and how he would want you to hit him hard and if you didn't, he'd hit you twice as hard.

I think it's on youtube.

[Kevin Hamilton]

joeman said:

randomranter said:

I don't mean to sound like I'm coming to Undertaker's defense, because he did go too far.

However, this can't compare to why everybody hops all over Bob Holly or JBL.

Holly and JBL aren't "Locker Room Leaders". They're bullies. Holly doesn't beat up the new guys because they screwed up or something. He does it because he wants to be "Mr. Tough Guy". He does it because he believes that the new guys are "beneath him". He does it.......just because.

JBL does it simply because he's an ass. He knows he doesn't need the WWE, as he makes a significant amount of money in the stock market. He also knows that he's high up the totem pole, and is in that "protected" class of wrestlers that can do no wrong in Vince's eyes and has no realistic chance of being fired. So he picks on the little guys because he can, in essence saying to them "Yeah, I'm picking on you. What are you going to do about it? Go ahead and try......you'll be the one depushed and fired."

There's a difference between someone working stiff because the other guy isn't following directions or doing what they're supposed to be and working stiff to be a bully. Taker was trying to be the former and took it too far. Holly and JBL are in the latter category, and that's why everybody jumps all over them.

Saved you the trouble Jackrabbit $lim

Thank ya sir, I figured it'd be there somewhere.

[krazysane]

Holly does it often, this is like the first time it has come out about the undertaker. Yet there is that little difference. I dont think its fair to throw undertaker and hollys name in together about bullying a wrestler. Is it the same thing yes. But is it a little different, yes.

[Kevin Hamilton]

How do we know who is and who isn't a locker room leader? I missed that memo.