xCompackx
Wade Wilson
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Post by xCompackx on Jul 25, 2012 14:43:14 GMT -5
Come on man, this ain't the first time Triple H has done this. Remember Umaga? Cena had to choke him with a ring rope to win, and a ways down the road, Triple H was beating him cleanly. Yeah, I remember. I also remember how Kane used to no-sell chair shots, and then "a ways down the road" he just didn't. Welcome to almost every monster heel in the history of professional wrestling. Hell, Taker used to no-sell chair shots more than Kane did at his peak and then you watch Taker vs. Triple H at WM 27 and he's just getting murdered by them. It happens. Also, I know it was probably sarcastic, but I don't think there's a single person in DX that couldn't still go in a match if they had to.
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Post by Kevin Hamilton on Jul 25, 2012 15:07:55 GMT -5
HHH isn't supposed to be one of the 'top stars' anymore. That was exemplified in the whole "End of an Era" build-up; at least he SHOULDN'T be. He's supposed to be a part-time guy that was legendary and can still get it done on occasion. Him getting brutalized makes perfect sense in the context of what they're presumably trying to build with Brock.
H needs to be the sacrificial lamb that's taken to slaughter to give the idea of Brock as monster ( particularly after the Cena loss) if what they're doing is building up to a big monumental win that sends Brock packing.
Otherwise they're just paying Lesnar 5 mil to come in and put over all their guys.. which if that's the case, good for Brock I guess, but it's not really interesting/seems like a huge waste of money for little return opposed to the other way of doing things.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 25, 2012 16:13:00 GMT -5
You haven't read the thread, have you? Read it, this has been addressed endlessly.
Nobody's saying Brock need to swoop in and kill everybody, nobody can stand up to him ever, etc. etc. etc.
The idea is that if you want a monstrous heel and want to make the most money you can off him, you make him look invulnerable in the buildup to his matches, then when the stage gets biggest and the lights get brightest you use all that momentum he has to put somebody else over as the man who defeats him.
If he comes in and doesn't really stand out much compared to the guys who are already there, then he's no longer a draw or special attraction, period.
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kidglov3s
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Wants her Shot
Who is Tiger Maskooo?
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Post by kidglov3s on Jul 25, 2012 16:15:11 GMT -5
You haven't read the thread, have you? Read it, this has been addressed endlessly. Nobody's saying Brock need to swoop in and kill everybody, nobody can stand up to him ever, etc. etc. etc. The idea is that if you want a monstrous heel and want to make the most money you can off him, you make him look invulnerable in the buildup to his matches, then when the stage gets biggest and the lights get brightest you use all that momentum he has to put somebody else over as the man who defeats him. If he comes in and doesn't really stand out much compared to the guys who are already there, then he's no longer a draw or special attraction, period. What was cool about The Rock and Brock Lesnar was that they did stand out, and I think they still do mostly. Everyone else just blends in anymore. It's a sad state of things.
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Post by Some Guy on Jul 25, 2012 16:30:09 GMT -5
How is it a good idea for a guy who only shows up every 3-4 months and is leaving after a year to come in and straight decimate the WWE's top stars and then leave?Its not . The IWC wants Lesnar to come in and straight squash the WWE's top stars.They want Lesnar to always have the upper hand,always be dominant,and then win the match while squashing the other guy. How in the world does that make any sense much less any business sense considering also the guys he beats are still going to be there while he leaves a and was only there for two years in the first place. Brock Lesnar should LOSE because he won't be there anymore and the way he's being booked he still looks dominant and like a legit threat no matter what win or lose while it helps give the people he's feuding with a boost and brings the most important thing in signing Lesnar more ppv buys. If triple h,Cena,Orton or anybody that's a wwe star or hated by the IWC came and straight decimated all the top stars and was always dominant there would be massive hate and things spewed upon it but bc it's somebody who quit and left the wwe and hates it and bc he's going against people the IWC despises Cena,triple h, it's awesome and he should. Really?Really?Really? Because those guys can take it. Cena and Triple H regularly destroy pushes and beat guys at the height of their momentum, while Brock has only gone after a guy who refuses to put over anyone anymore unless it's the goddamn Undertaker at Wrestlemania, and the other who needs to be kicked down a peg.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
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I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 25, 2012 16:55:00 GMT -5
Come on man, this ain't the first time Triple H has done this. Remember Umaga? Cena had to choke him with a ring rope to win, and a ways down the road, Triple H was beating him cleanly. The best part was that HHH beat Umaga clean, after having already beaten Randy Orton, then wrestling Orton again at the end of the same night. Whoever said HHH was WWE's ultimate Mary Sue character was 100% right. That's the best way I've ever heard him explained. That said, I hope WWE resists the urge to use one of Brock's limited dates to film some stupid home invasion/scaring the kids skit. You just know moronic Stephanie & Vince would think this would add to the feud, despite it having always ruined straight revenge builds.
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Post by Miss_Carol on Jul 27, 2012 15:37:40 GMT -5
How is it a good idea for a guy who only shows up every 3-4 months and is leaving after a year to come in and straight decimate the WWE's top stars and then leave?Its not . The IWC wants Lesnar to come in and straight squash the WWE's top stars.They want Lesnar to always have the upper hand,always be dominant,and then win the match while squashing the other guy. How in the world does that make any sense much less any business sense considering also the guys he beats are still going to be there while he leaves a and was only there for two years in the first place. Brock Lesnar should LOSE because he won't be there anymore and the way he's being booked he still looks dominant and like a legit threat no matter what win or lose while it helps give the people he's feuding with a boost and brings the most important thing in signing Lesnar more ppv buys. If triple h,Cena,Orton or anybody that's a wwe star or hated by the IWC came and straight decimated all the top stars and was always dominant there would be massive hate and things spewed upon it but bc it's somebody who quit and left the wwe and hates it and bc he's going against people the IWC despises Cena,triple h, it's awesome and he should. Really?Really?Really? You don’t get it at all do you? Brock putting someone over before leaving is exactly what the majority of us want. That’s why we want him to be booked like an absolute dominant monster so that the person he fights during his “final” match will be the great hero who finally takes down that monster. We just don’t want Tripple H to be that guy, because he doesn’t need it. By having Tripple H getting the best of Brock Lesnar in one exchange, he’s already lost some of his dominance. Because for a true monster heel, there is really only one way to be booked, and that’s completely dominant. You show some vulnerability and you’re not a monster anymore, you’re just another heel. And before you go “but Cena beat him already”, Cena who is the top face and kayfaybe considered the strongest active wrestler on the roster, had to wrap a friggin chain around his fist, punch Brock in the face and AA him on top of the steel steppes to pin him down. He was getting absolutely murdered by Brock prior to that, and only managed to do this because Lesnar let his guard down for a split second. While I would have liked to see Brock win the match, the loss actually made him come off as strong.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 15:42:14 GMT -5
Meh. I think Trips and Brock are wrestling equals. Either is capable of besting the other one, but Brock got completely overwhelmed and it felt kind of silly.
I could reason that all the talk of Steph's and by extension his family talk pumped him up to where he just hulked out and pounded Brock, but this ain't MMA; in wrestling, we've to believe that meatblock Lesnar is a force. He did not appear to be such a thing.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2012 16:12:29 GMT -5
What I find funny is HHH is going to win at Summerslam. You can all laugh at me if that ends up being wrong, but I can't imagine H laying down for the guy who left the company high and dry in 2004. So all this stuff to make HHH look good before the match is just going to be more pointless when Brock ends up jobbing. It is the usual HHH pattern.
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thecrusherwi
El Dandy
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Brawl For All
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Post by thecrusherwi on Jul 27, 2012 16:18:06 GMT -5
By having Tripple H getting the best of Brock Lesnar in one exchange, he’s already lost some of his dominance. Because for a true monster heel, there is really only one way to be booked, and that’s completely dominant. You show some vulnerability and you’re not a monster anymore, you’re just another heel.And before you go “but Cena beat him already”, Cena who is the top face and kayfaybe considered the strongest active wrestler on the roster, had to wrap a friggin chain around his fist, punch Brock in the face and AA him on top of the steel steppes to pin him down. He was getting absolutely murdered by Brock prior to that, and only managed to do this because Lesnar let his guard down for a split second. While I would have liked to see Brock win the match, the loss actually made him come off as strong. I think you are totally wrong on the bolded point. While a monster heel has to be MOSTLY dominent, he can't just tear through everyone untested. That's totally lame and builds no intrigue. The most dominating heel that people like to bring up is Vader. Sure he murdered an aging Nikita Koloff, beat the shit out of Cactus Jack, and broke the bones of some jobbers, but when he tried to do that to Sting, he got punched in the mouth and knocked on his ass. That made you think that Sting might have a chance to beat this bully. Sure Vader got in his shots too, but Sting wasn't just a bitch that sat there and took it like some overmatch punk. From a kayfabe standpoint, why shouldn't Triple H get his shots in? He's freakin Triple H! He's beaten every big star in the history of WWE. Lesnar's kayfabe credentials don't come close to touching Triple H's. And when you look at the scoreboard so far, Triple H has clotheslined Lesnar over the top rope and left him pretty much unscathed. Lesnar BROKE TRIPLE H'S f***IN ARM! I think Lesnar has still been plenty dominant. The fight ended on Monday for one reason, Lesnar chose to end it. As for the winner, I honestly don't think a loss hurts either guy at all. In character or in drawing power.
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Banecat
Don Corleone
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Post by Banecat on Jul 27, 2012 16:21:16 GMT -5
Brock Lesner doesn't draw. He's a big meathead with almost zero charisma.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jul 27, 2012 16:27:58 GMT -5
Brock Lesner doesn't draw. He's a big meathead with almost zero charisma.
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Post by Zaq "That Guy" Buzzkill on Jul 27, 2012 16:54:19 GMT -5
Brock Lesner doesn't draw. He's a big meathead with almost zero charisma. Pft a sarcasm detector, what a real useful invention.
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vanboxmeer
ALF
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Post by vanboxmeer on Jul 27, 2012 16:59:32 GMT -5
Triple H's power level was elevated because he was fighting with a loved one present. His protecting instinct temporarily gave him the boost in ability to fend off a man who would've normally massacred him. That's why Lesnar smirked, because he knows this is the case and he left to allow HUNTOR to delude himself into thinking he has a fighting chance.
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Arrow
Hank Scorpio
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Post by Arrow on Jul 27, 2012 17:17:48 GMT -5
I was annoyed by this while watching Raw, but now I think it's really too early to tell. Ultimately, how I feel about the segment will have to be decided when the actual match goes down.
If Brock wins, then this segment is fine. Triple H will need some momentum going into the match so that Lesnar beating him actually means something.
If Triple H wins, then this segment is stupid. If Brock is going to be losing three out of his, what?, four matches, then he'll need all the momentum he can get so that he still comes back from two losses in a row looking credible.
It just all depends on where WWE plans to go with HHH vs. Lesnar. So I'm going to wait until SummerSlam before judging this.
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
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I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 27, 2012 18:22:14 GMT -5
What I find funny is HHH is going to win at Summerslam. You can all laugh at me if that ends up being wrong, but I can't imagine H laying down for the guy who left the company high and dry in 2004. So all this stuff to make HHH look good before the match is just going to be more pointless when Brock ends up jobbing. It is the usual HHH pattern. If that happens, it'll confirm every bad thing anyone's ever said about HHH and his booking. Those who usually defend will be defenseless, and those who criticize will be vindicated. I don't want to be vindicated though. I want HHH to do the right thing because I know the dude actually is a student of the wrestling business, and as such, knows him winning, deep down, is counter-productive to everything built and needing to built.
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Post by Big Daddy Bad Booking on Jul 27, 2012 18:23:47 GMT -5
Triple H's power level was elevated because he was fighting with a loved one present. His protecting instinct temporarily gave him the boost in ability to fend off a man who would've normally massacred him. That's why Lesnar smirked, because he knows this is the case and he left to allow HUNTOR to delude himself into thinking he has a fighting chance. I believe this, because it's totally plausible. Lesnar at the same time can afford to lose every match and still be a monster because of his demeanor and attitude.q
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Jul 27, 2012 20:52:09 GMT -5
I think there's a good reason why a number of people want Brock to look dominant going into the match. Because every monster heel who's ever sold tickets has looked dominant going into a big, marquee match.There is no "they have to be even going into the match!". That goes against every iota of wrestling history basically ever. I always point this out to show where Hulk Hogan perpetually trumps Triple H: almost any time Hogan went into a big PPV or SNME match against a monster heel, he made himself look incredibly vulnerable. -Bundy "broke" Hogan's ribs. -Earthquake squashed him on the Brother Love set and nearly retired him. -He never got his hands on Andre before WM 3. -Undertaker left him laying with an urn shot and tore the cross from around his neck. These matches sold tickets BECAUSE Hulk Hogan looked vulnerable, and fans wanted to cheer him to overcome the big, scary monster he was fighting. We could also look back on WCW and ask ourselves if, during his prime run, Vader ever was seen backing away up a ramp to avoid a fight. Maybe Harley Race would try holding him back, maybe he'd play a mind game with a guy like Sting, but Vader never retreated. Why not? Because then he's not the monster you've spent years building him up to be. Hell, reminds me of Tuesday in Texas in 1991: Hogan has to cheat to beat 'Taker, and after the match? Heel Undertaker is trying to get back in the ring to kill Hogan, with Bearer holding him back. Here's what WWE needs to ask itself: why did we bring back Brock Lesnar? What do we want him to be for us? Going by the booking of the Cena feud, they wanted an unstoppable monster. They wanted a guy who was so legit that he went off to MMA, became the Heavyweight Champion, and now he's back to annihilate everybody. Sure, he lost the eventual match, but he looked incredibly strong going into it, and as I understand it he looked strong DURING the match, with his loss being a bit fluke-ish. Going by what I'm seeing here, they're now booking Brock the way they'd book any of their already neutered heel roster. Brock "broke" Trips' arm? Good. Now have him and Heyman gloating about it. Have Trips cut a short promo about how he's going to take revenge against this MMA interloper on behalf of the company he wants to lead. Have them stare one another down, but not come to blows. And whatever you do, don't let Hunter get the best of him physically until SummerSlam.One other question to consider: who's the main "Special Attraction" here? Is it Trips? Doesn't seem like it; the guy's been around forever, he's already used up nearly all of his high drawing dream matches, and it's not like he hasn't been working PPV's for a chunk of the past year already. No, the "Special Attraction" is Lesnar. If I understand correctly, they want Brock around through Wrestlemania, right? Makes logical sense that they'd build up to his biggest match then, and if he's going to be this monstrous heel, then he really needs to look unstoppable up until that time. Trips can look bad, take a bullet, and it won't really affect very much. Brock isn't around enough for that to work for him. But Trips is, and always has been, just God awful about making any threat look real. He perpetually needs to look like the manliest man in the room, and no threat ever has him intimidated or filled with anything aside of smug superiority or righteous indignation. You want to sell tickets with Brock Lesnar? You want to get a really high WM pay per view buy rate this coming year? Have Trips be scared of him. Not petrified, not running away, but have him show true, real concern that Lesnar might really be unstoppable. If that goes through SummerSlam, then people will start watching more to see who can actually derail Brock. Give him a good enough WM opponent and build up, have him finally vanquished there. It writes itself. But don't act like "getting even" has EVER been the norm when booking a monster heel angle. now maybe I'm just remembering wrong but I'm pretty sure in instances like Hogan vs Quake in 90 and Sting vs Vader in 92 that maybe they were able to take out the top guys but thanks to the top guys having backup it did seem the faces had a chance. While Hogan was out and after he was back Tugboat was able to fight Quake to a stand still. And when Vader put Sting on the shelf Nikita Koloff stepped up. And maye there were times he got cocky enough to do stuff like a one handed Scorpion Deathlock but there were other times it seemed like he was one Russian Sickle away from eating his first loss.
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mrjl
Fry's dog Seymour
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Post by mrjl on Jul 27, 2012 20:53:36 GMT -5
What I find funny is HHH is going to win at Summerslam. You can all laugh at me if that ends up being wrong, but I can't imagine H laying down for the guy who left the company high and dry in 2004. So all this stuff to make HHH look good before the match is just going to be more pointless when Brock ends up jobbing. It is the usual HHH pattern. If that happens, it'll confirm every bad thing anyone's ever said about HHH and his booking. Those who usually defend will be defenseless, and those who criticize will be vindicated. I don't want to be vindicated though. I want HHH to do the right thing because I know the dude actually is a student of the wrestling business, and as such, knows him winning, deep down, is counter-productive to everything built and needing to built. I want Lesnar to lose. Finally WWE has a heel they might just beat down to the point he's carried out on a stretcher. I'm sick of faces settling for victories. I want payback
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SEAN CARLESS
Hank Scorpio
More of a B+ player, actually
I'm Necessary Evil.
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Post by SEAN CARLESS on Jul 27, 2012 21:04:49 GMT -5
If that happens, it'll confirm every bad thing anyone's ever said about HHH and his booking. Those who usually defend will be defenseless, and those who criticize will be vindicated. I don't want to be vindicated though. I want HHH to do the right thing because I know the dude actually is a student of the wrestling business, and as such, knows him winning, deep down, is counter-productive to everything built and needing to built. I want Lesnar to lose. Finally WWE has a heel they might just beat down to the point he's carried out on a stretcher. I'm sick of faces settling for victories. I want payback You have every right to want to see that as a fan. But it's terrible business at this point.
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