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Post by angryfan on Oct 4, 2008 2:33:33 GMT -5
It's been brought up, but the 619. I remember what it was in WCW, and it wasn't an offensive move at all. It was the "I'm gonna do a suicide dive, wait, he's moving, better stop myself" spot. It looked cool, but accomplished nothing beyond Rey not crashing and burning.
As for the hot tag debate going on, here's my two cents. I don't mind the spot in and of itself, but it's overdone. Yes, it's kinda necessary, but why can't we occasionally see it backfire? You know, face gets the hot tag, comes charging in to kick a whole truckload of ass and gets immediately detonated.
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chairshotshurthead
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Post by chairshotshurthead on Oct 4, 2008 5:57:51 GMT -5
As for the hot tag debate going on, here's my two cents. I don't mind the spot in and of itself, but it's overdone. Yes, it's kinda necessary, but why can't we occasionally see it backfire? You know, face gets the hot tag, comes charging in to kick a whole truckload of ass and gets immediately detonated. Because that defeats the purpose of it. You build a whole match towards the face getting the hot tag to his partner, his partner runs wild on the heels and then suddenly gets cut off and killed, then you've just killed all the heat you spent all that time and effort building up and thus have killed the match, meaning you have to start all over again from scratch to get the people into the match, and that's only if you've actually got the time to spare to do it. Because if you've built the heat that far up to kill it at the end, 1. chances are you're not getting it back, and number 2. you've just f***ed your audience over for investing their time and energy in the match. Because it means you've failed to do your job right. That's why the formula is done the way it's done and has been done that way for decades, because it garners the exactly psychological response that the wrestlers are out there to get. And because it works. It's as simple as that.
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Post by angryfan on Oct 4, 2008 6:02:59 GMT -5
As for the hot tag debate going on, here's my two cents. I don't mind the spot in and of itself, but it's overdone. Yes, it's kinda necessary, but why can't we occasionally see it backfire? You know, face gets the hot tag, comes charging in to kick a whole truckload of ass and gets immediately detonated. Because that defeats the purpose of it. You build a whole match towards the face getting the hot tag to his partner, his partner runs wild on the heels and then suddenly gets cut off and killed, then you've just killed all the heat you spent all that time and effort building up and thus have killed the match, meaning you have to start all over again from scratch to get the people into the match, and that's only if you've actually got the time to spare to do it. Because if you've built the heat that far up to kill it at the end, 1. chances are you're not getting it back, and number 2. you've just smurfed your audience over for investing their time and energy in the match. Because it means you've failed to do your job right. That's why the formula is done the way it's done and has been done that way for decades, because it garners the exactly psychological response that the wrestlers are out there to get. And because it works. It's as simple as that. Ah, but you assume I'm talking about some feud ending match, when I'm not. Forcing the whole "heels must always cheat to win" theory is good if that is the type of heel you're going for. However, if you're, let's say, the Road Warriors, in a hot feud for the titles, you can either kill you some jobbers which might build mystique but does zero for the feud, or you can have them meet the babyfaces, winning as I stated above, and what do you get? The payoff match in and of itself becomes more dramatic when they do win, because they managed to learn from the previous mistakes. You still get your payoff, your mid match hope spots, and all that, it just gets drawn out a bit more, making the eventual triumph of the babyfaces that much sweeter.
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Post by Red 'n' Black Reggie on Oct 4, 2008 6:26:15 GMT -5
i think the hot tag does get overdone, but it's not a bad spot. i just think they could mix it up a bit.
for instance, say the faces dominate early on, but then one of them gets hit with a massive double team move. he's completely out of it, but his partner manages to tag in. then the partner's fairing pretty well, but keeps getting outnembered. then whenever he goes to make the tag, his partner isn't ready to fight yet, so you still have the two-on-one avantage for the heels, but it's in a completely different way. so they keep double teaming the face, until eventually he manages to tag his partner, who by this time has recovered somewhat and, despite still selling the injury, is staggering towards them doing the classing "I'ma kick that sumbitch ass!" babyface pose, then you go to all the false finishes. that way you still get the same effect as the hot tag story, just with less predictability.
there are about a million things you can do with tag team psychology, but most of them tend to get overlooked.
wait, what was this thread about? oh yeah, the bronco buster sucks.
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Post by angryfan on Oct 4, 2008 6:29:59 GMT -5
I say we start some kind of petition that no male wrestler, particularly one who looks like a half dronwed rat on acid, shall every, EVER, use the Bronco Buster ever again? A single use of the move can negate any argument that a wrestling fan might make to the uninitiated that wrestling is indeed not gay.
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chairshotshurthead
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Post by chairshotshurthead on Oct 4, 2008 6:45:34 GMT -5
Because that defeats the purpose of it. You build a whole match towards the face getting the hot tag to his partner, his partner runs wild on the heels and then suddenly gets cut off and killed, then you've just killed all the heat you spent all that time and effort building up and thus have killed the match, meaning you have to start all over again from scratch to get the people into the match, and that's only if you've actually got the time to spare to do it. Because if you've built the heat that far up to kill it at the end, 1. chances are you're not getting it back, and number 2. you've just smurfed your audience over for investing their time and energy in the match. Because it means you've failed to do your job right. That's why the formula is done the way it's done and has been done that way for decades, because it garners the exactly psychological response that the wrestlers are out there to get. And because it works. It's as simple as that. Ah, but you assume I'm talking about some feud ending match, when I'm not. Forcing the whole "heels must always cheat to win" theory is good if that is the type of heel you're going for. However, if you're, let's say, the Road Warriors, in a hot feud for the titles, you can either kill you some jobbers which might build mystique but does zero for the feud, or you can have them meet the babyfaces, winning as I stated above, and what do you get? The payoff match in and of itself becomes more dramatic when they do win, because they managed to learn from the previous mistakes. You still get your payoff, your mid match hope spots, and all that, it just gets drawn out a bit more, making the eventual triumph of the babyfaces that much sweeter. Well no, I'm not talking about some feud-ending match, I'm talking about BASIC MATCH PSYCHOLOGY that is put into EVERY SINGLE MATCH. Heel gets heat. Face makes a comeback. That's the basic structure of every single wrestling match in history. And why? Because it's the basis of all dramatic storytelling: The hero/protagonist gets sympathy, the villain/antagonist gets hated, the hero overcomes the odds to fight back. Look at every single Rocky Balboa movie in history. What the smurf do you think would've happened if after all the build up to the big fight at the end, Rocky beats the crap out of the villain to begin with, then gets killed, beaten and loses, and that's the end of the fight. I'm not saying that heels shouldn't win matches or that they should only win matches by cheating, but the fact of the matter is that heels should always be villainous and faces should always be heroic. That's WHY they're FACES and HEELS. That's WHY the hot tag exists. And as far as the example of the Road Warriors you gave, the fact that people didn't get any dominance on them when they were 'heels' because they ran roughshod over the competition and didn't (or couldn't) sell a single bit of offense against them is what eventually forced them to go face and never turn back, because they were badasses. How are you not going to get behind the badass if he kills people and never shows any weakness, especially when said badass doesn't really do anything heelish? You don't. And if the intention is that they're SUPPOSED TO BE THE HEELS, and you don't let your faces get over them by doing something as simple as LETTING THEM GET A COMEBACK OFF A HOT TAG, then you've just BURIED THEM and KILLED ANY HEAT THEY HAD. Think of it this way; No matter how much you might sympathise with the Coyote after all the years of chasing the Roadrunner, if you ever see him truly successful, that's the end of it. No more Roadrunner, period. Now, if for example the Coyote succeeds, only to inevitably fail again, the circle can continue again as it's meant to. That's what wrestling is. It's finding what works and going with it, and the basic smurfing principle of what works in wrestling is the struggle between good and evil that plays out in every single match, regardless of how the match ends and plays into some bigger story. And no matter what that bigger story is, every time you get two sides in the ring, you have to play out the microcosm of the struggle between good and evil FOR THE PEOPLE WHO PAID TO SEE IT, which is why you have to make your fan favorite babyfaces look strong against the heels, and the best way of doing that is to have them get their asses kicked and then overcome the odds to make a comeback. Hell, that's why people get pissed at seeing guys get jobbed out in their hometowns, because they know what they want to see and by denying them the chance to see it, you smurf over your paying customers. And what's more, you smurf them over for no reason when you do that nowadays because the territory system is dead and you're not coming back to town next week to see the hometown hero get his revenge. Hell, it's why people get pissed at movies like the Planet of the Apes remake or Donnie Darko that string you along for 90 minutes and fall off a cliff at the end. You have to reward your audience for investing themselves in the story, regardless of whether or not it's part of a bigger story, and you reward them by letting them know that the faith they have invested in the babyface hero is not a complete and utter waste of f***ing time. THAT'S why you have the comeback. THAT'S why you have a hot tag. To reward your audience for their investment, regardless of how the match ends. You don't give them that reward by burying their hero, and all you've succeeding in doing is pissing off your paying customers and potentially driving people away. Basic smurfing psychology that has been a part of wrestling ever since the days of the carnival sideshow. For as long as wrestling has been a work, it has worked on that basic principle of dramatic, morality play, good vs. evil storytelling. It has always worked and it WILL always work because it plays to basics of human psychology to elicit a specific emotional reaction. The hot tag is just the tag team example of that. It cannot be stale, because when something is 'stale' it means it is no longer of use, and the hot tag will ALWAYS be of use to effectively elicit a reaction from the audience because human psychology and how it is played to in pro wrestling does not change. Therefore, there will never, EVER be a time when the hot tag - as it exists today and has existed for decades - does not work. That is not my 2 cents, that is a simple and basic fact of wrestling and human sociology. Rant over.
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Post by angryfan on Oct 4, 2008 6:56:26 GMT -5
I think the issue of the hot tag, or at least what I was trying to drive at, was not that it need be abolished. I was merely stating that, while yes it is basic tag psychology, it can get stale if, as is the case now, every single tag match is built the exact same way, so that there is nothing unique whatsoever. Find me one tag match not including squashes taht isn't booked in the same cookie cutter fashion as the one before it and the one after it.
All I was trying to point out was that there needs to be some, on some level, uniqueness to an occasional match so that the fans will stick around for a little while.
I guess, though, that's what they're trying for with the Colons, given that we get Carlito gets killed, hot tag, coupla kicks, another tag to the previously and recently massacred Carlito who then becomes healed like he just got the flashing star on Super Mario Brothrs and comes back to kill everybody.
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chairshotshurthead
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Post by chairshotshurthead on Oct 4, 2008 7:11:11 GMT -5
I think the issue of the hot tag, or at least what I was trying to drive at, was not that it need be abolished. I was merely stating that, while yes it is basic tag psychology, it can get stale if, as is the case now, every single tag match is built the exact same way, so that there is nothing unique whatsoever. Find me one tag match not including squashes taht isn't booked in the same cookie cutter fashion as the one before it and the one after it. All I was trying to point out was that there needs to be some, on some level, uniqueness to an occasional match so that the fans will stick around for a little while. I guess, though, that's what they're trying for with the Colons, given that we get Carlito gets killed, hot tag, coupla kicks, another tag to the previously and recently massacred Carlito who then becomes healed like he just got the flashing star on Super Mario Brothrs and comes back to kill everybody. While I get what you mean, I just wanna leave off with this: there are some things that are perfectly fine being done the same way again and again and again because there is really no reason why they should be done any different. Like I said before 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. Making things more 'unique' is how we get reverse battle royales and Feast or Fired matches, just because somethings new and different doesn't mean it's any good. 'Uniqueness' is the most overrated idea in professional wrestling today. That's my 2 cents.
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Post by angryfan on Oct 4, 2008 7:14:42 GMT -5
I agree, I don't want more "gimmick a go go" either, as it pisses me off. However, in long feuds, especially early on matches between the groups, would it not be suitible to have the heels look dominant through their own merit? Still have some shinanigans or a post-match unnecessary beat down, but in the match itself, a good old fashioned ass kicking can actually serve a purpose, at least in my opinion. I guess I'm not so much arguing against the "hot tag" principle, I'm merely trying to find a way to make it more meaningful when it does happen.
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Oct 4, 2008 7:27:34 GMT -5
Another thing: When HBK hits Sweet Chin Music on somebody, the opponent is usually fine the next week. When MVP and Gregory Helms hit their Shining Wizard-like finishers, the opponent is usually fine the next week. When William Regal used to hit "The Power of the Punch", with brass knuckles, the opponent is usually fine the next week. So what makes Randy Orton's head punt so devastating that it causes his opponents to have long-term injuries? HBK and Regal usually hit the chin area. Helms hits the back of the head with less than full momentum because he has to jump up. MVP kicks the side of the head. Orton gets a running start and kicks a person in the face with a motion similar to what pro football kickers use to propel a ball over fifty yards through the air.
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Oct 4, 2008 7:28:59 GMT -5
Missed dropkicks. They always land on their back. They land on their side if they connect with it. They should land on their side either way. It makes no sense. There's also a lot of moves out there that look really cool, but in reality, shouldn't be worse than a bodyslam. Any variation of the michinoku driver.
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Oct 4, 2008 7:30:29 GMT -5
It's been brought up, but the 619. I remember what it was in WCW, and it wasn't an offensive move at all. It was the "I'm gonna do a suicide dive, wait, he's moving, better stop myself" spot. It looked cool, but accomplished nothing beyond Rey not crashing and burning. As for the hot tag debate going on, here's my two cents. I don't mind the spot in and of itself, but it's overdone. Yes, it's kinda necessary, but why can't we occasionally see it backfire? You know, face gets the hot tag, comes charging in to kick a whole truckload of ass and gets immediately detonated. I have seen it happen almost immediately
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Post by noleafclover1980 on Oct 4, 2008 13:26:34 GMT -5
It baffles me as to why HHH hasn't figured out by now NOT TO TRY A PEDIGREE NEAR THE ROPES Why? No one ever figured out to never try and powerbomb Kidman, so why is that such a stretch?
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Post by ellisdee on Oct 4, 2008 14:08:46 GMT -5
Sweet Chin Music - I mean,i love HBK,but the foot stomp build up is terrible. Wouldn't the opponent hear Shawn stopping his foot and know he was going for Sweet Chin Music? Don't stand up and walk in to it!!
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Post by Bo Rida on Oct 4, 2008 14:29:45 GMT -5
Another thing: When HBK hits Sweet Chin Music on somebody, the opponent is usually fine the next week. When MVP and Gregory Helms hit their Shining Wizard-like finishers, the opponent is usually fine the next week. When William Regal used to hit "The Power of the Punch", with brass knuckles, the opponent is usually fine the next week. So what makes Randy Orton's head punt so devastating that it causes his opponents to have long-term injuries? Orton's strength stat is higher so it does more damage. Anyway two more, Both from cage matches. The cage door being slammed into the faces head by somebody outside. One wrestler is climbing over the top, the other crawling out the door, who will get there first spot, it was fine the first time but I never want to see it again.
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Oct 4, 2008 15:32:20 GMT -5
Sweet Chin Music - I mean,i love HBK,but the foot stomp build up is terrible. Wouldn't the opponent hear Shawn stopping his foot and know he was going for Sweet Chin Music? Don't stand up and walk in to it!! maybe they can't hear it for the crowd yelling?
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CM Dazz
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Post by CM Dazz on Oct 4, 2008 15:40:20 GMT -5
it was too good to resist Why was Screech portraying Ric Flair
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2008 16:18:16 GMT -5
This thread is hilarious.
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Post by ThereIsNoAbsurdistOnlyZuul on Oct 4, 2008 17:37:01 GMT -5
Ahem...
Rebound Lariat. What... the... hell?
Also Austin Aires' headscissor counters. Why was Roderick giving you a headscissors to begin with?
Why did Christian just go for a corner splash against Joe?
For the love of God if you see Hogan starting the Hulk up sequence, STOP HITTING HIM!
Before I with my two cents about the "hot tag" let me say one thing, the psychology and necessity of storytelling are it's only strong points. In the 'E, it is use on way, all the time. Seriously, your cruiserweight babyfaces shouldn't be busting out with effective clotheslines against the huge monster heel tag team.
The tried and true spots are more than functional, and we should keep them. However the specifics of the spot, and not it's story purpose, can be mixed up.
And some spots should be special, I mean, people should have a multitiered moveset. See Kobashi. Does he pull out the Burning Hammer every damn match? Nope, he saves it for when it is needed.
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Post by ellisdee on Oct 4, 2008 17:53:42 GMT -5
Sweet Chin Music - I mean,i love HBK,but the foot stomp build up is terrible. Wouldn't the opponent hear Shawn stopping his foot and know he was going for Sweet Chin Music? Don't stand up and walk in to it!! maybe they can't hear it for the crowd yelling? Kayfabe wise,that is a good point. But surely laid out on the floor,you would feel the ring moving when he stamps his foot?
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