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Post by superclash on Sept 12, 2009 20:56:09 GMT -5
Austin and Rock actually had talent...
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Hiroshi Hase
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Post by Hiroshi Hase on Sept 12, 2009 20:57:11 GMT -5
But what if it is? *snip* So why is it suddenly impossible for Cena to be unable to write his own promos? What if he, himself, changed his character to appeal to a wider audience (whatever that means)? Read my post. It's common knowledge that Cena used to write his own promos while he was working his way up on SD. They were far more dynamic than what he's doing now. His current promos have NONE of the trappings of his old ones. Throughout history writers have always been noted for their styles and idiosyncracies, even when they try to change it up. Now, while it's possible that he suddenly stopped being talented, it's more likely that some hack took over the job for him. Why are you so averse to the idea of Cena's promos not being his own? What are you driving at? You know something that we don't? Why would he have any of his old SD stuff now? His persona is far removed from than what he was in 2003-04 as he's just a regular guy now essentially and in this PG era you're not going to hear any raps about making anyone his bitch or using lewd language.
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Post by Andrew is Good on Sept 12, 2009 21:03:57 GMT -5
Steve Austin and The Rock were two completely different characters, and very athletic (Steve was a good ring general too even with a bad neck). They had good gimmicks that suited them well.
John Cena, while talented, is a take off of Hogan, Rock and Austin. Rock in his promos, he tries to be bad ass and tough like Austin, and the all american good guy like Hogan. Hogan, Rock and Austin were three completely different characters, and what they did fit them. Cena putting all of those characters together isn't gelling well.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 12, 2009 21:11:25 GMT -5
Steve Austin and The Rock were two completely different characters, and very athletic (Steve was a good ring general too even with a bad neck). They had good gimmicks that suited them well. John Cena, while talented, is a take off of Hogan, Rock and Austin. Rock in his promos, he tries to be bad ass and tough like Austin, and the all american good guy like Hogan. Hogan, Rock and Austin were three completely different characters, and what they did fit them. Cena putting all of those characters together isn't gelling well. Exactly. Honestly, though, I had a lot of complaints about Austin back in the day. I hated how he was booked to lay out 75% of the roster AT ONCE with stunners as often as he did...
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Tombi
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Post by Tombi on Sept 12, 2009 21:11:47 GMT -5
Read my post. It's common knowledge that Cena used to write his own promos while he was working his way up on SD. They were far more dynamic than what he's doing now. His current promos have NONE of the trappings of his old ones. Throughout history writers have always been noted for their styles and idiosyncracies, even when they try to change it up. Now, while it's possible that he suddenly stopped being talented, it's more likely that some hack took over the job for him. Why are you so averse to the idea of Cena's promos not being his own? What are you driving at? You know something that we don't? Why would he have any of his old SD stuff now? His persona is far removed from than what he was in 2003-04 as he's just a regular guy now essentially and in this PG era you're not going to hear any raps about making anyone his bitch or using lewd language. I think criticism of Cena's promos are not without merit...in 2007. Maybe parts of 2008 as well, but I just don't see the "scripted" part anymore. His current promos have lots of energy, he's able to convey emotion when needed, and sometimes he says stuff so ridiculous you just know he's making it up on the spot. "THE FORCE OF 2000 MEN WILL COME CRASHING DOWN" and such. With that said, the John Cena character of 2009 and the John Cena character of 2003 are two drastically different entities. Even if John is still doing his own promos he's naturally going to be doing them completely different so they fit the character. For example, now that he's such a star with kids he no longer has the "F-U" and he no longer has loads of innuendo or presumed swear words in his promos. I believe the awkward period where most people saw his promos as scripted was simply a time where John was changing his style and wasn't quite there and comfortable yet. As far as right now is concerned I think he's delivering decent to excellent promos especially depending on what he has to work with. This is correct, but I can't say I blame him. I'm sure those three were who he grew up with in different stages of his life and he's most comfortable working with what he knows. I don't think it's the mere idea of combining different promo styles that puts people off - hell even guys like Hulk Hogan have been known to do that much. I think it's just the John Cena character that is doing those promos is a bit too goody-goody for most people. It's already been mentioned, but I certainly think the large disappearance of kayfabe is why a Hogan like character can't really 'work' in modern times.
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Post by taylorandborland on Sept 12, 2009 21:15:00 GMT -5
Read my post. It's common knowledge that Cena used to write his own promos while he was working his way up on SD. They were far more dynamic than what he's doing now. His current promos have NONE of the trappings of his old ones. Throughout history writers have always been noted for their styles and idiosyncracies, even when they try to change it up. Now, while it's possible that he suddenly stopped being talented, it's more likely that some hack took over the job for him. Why are you so averse to the idea of Cena's promos not being his own? What are you driving at? You know something that we don't? Why would he have any of his old SD stuff now? His persona is far removed from than what he was in 2003-04 as he's just a regular guy now essentially and in this PG era you're not going to hear any raps about making anyone his bitch or using lewd language. I didn't say that he'd use his old SD stuff. I said if he was writing his promos, he'd at least retain some of the qualities. He didn't need to curse his ass off and talk crazy s*** to be witty, and he sold a point without having to change tone every five seconds. Point is, we know that Cena's better than this. And I just don't think that he wouldn't know how to write better promos than he's doing out there, even if it is the PG era.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 12, 2009 21:19:22 GMT -5
I think Cena really just needs to drop the "I'm The Marine!" part of his gimmick, because it's what has infuriated me about him ever since it started up. He's NOT a Marine just because he played (an ex-)one in a movie, and it just comes off as insulting our intelligence.
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Post by shamana on Sept 12, 2009 21:20:44 GMT -5
Actually, I got sick of the Rock pretty early and I thought he was overrated. Still do, in fact.
Now that I think about it, Rock and Austin were at times billed almost as superhuman as Cena ever was. At times it seemed either of them could take on the entire roster, and I don't think Cena ever did something like that. However, the whole "Overcoming the odds" thing with Cena is incredibly overdone. I would love it if someone - commentator or wrestler - did an "The odds overcame the odds" joke when Cena loses "against overwhelming odds".
Edit: Maybe I was just a kid then and didn't care Austin and the Rock were being crammed down my throat. After all, that - not the promos or ring work - is what made me hostile to Cena in his 2007/early 2008 incarnation.
Technically it wasn't Cena's fault, as such - at most, I did not see how he was worth it for such an obscene push. I considered him an ok to good wrestler, and that is nothing bad imo. Not everyone can put a technical masterpiece like Bret, Angle or Benoit; not everyone can own on the mic like Jericho, Edge, Angle, Michaels, or Rocky on a good day (read: when he's not only mouthing catchphrases). I'm not much of a Cena fan, but the only time I hated him was when WWE was crapping all over themselves with his booking.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 12, 2009 21:25:27 GMT -5
Actually, I got sick of the Rock pretty early and I thought he was overrated. Still do, in fact. Now that I think about it, Rock and Austin were at times billed almost as superhuman as Cena ever was. At times it seemed either of them could take on the entire roster, and I don't think Cena ever did something like that. However, the whole "Overcoming the odds" thing with Cena is incredibly overdone. I would love it if someone - commentator or wrestler - did an "The odds overcame the odds" joke when Cena loses "against overwhelming odds". Cena & Orton vs. The Entire RAW Roster?
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Post by shamana on Sept 12, 2009 21:36:49 GMT -5
Hmm, oh yeah. Wait, didn't they lose that one?
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Post by taylorandborland on Sept 12, 2009 21:39:03 GMT -5
Hmm, oh yeah. Wait, didn't they lose that one? Nah, the Raw roster got DQ'ed for rushing Cena.
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Post by chunkylover53 on Sept 12, 2009 23:17:06 GMT -5
What I find funny is today Cena gets trashed by making poop jokes, when The Rock gets praised for talking anal insertions, beastiality, gay references from time to time amongst other things. I guess nostalgia has a grasp on people.
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Post by Hakumental on Sept 12, 2009 23:19:12 GMT -5
Rock and Austin had both well-executed, defining feuds and distinct characters. Cena has steadily (and unfortunately) declined in both.
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Sept 12, 2009 23:22:20 GMT -5
The reason the Cena/HHH/Batista/Orton/whoever is on top hate seems so much more now is because that is all there is. Back in the Rock/Austin days if you didn't like those guys over the top invulnerability and their constant runs at the top you still had a strong tag division to watch, a very crazy hardcore division, a diverse IC/Euro title picture, and occasionally a good woman's or cruiser match. Now the total focus is the Heavyweight title.
I honestly hated the majority of Austin's run. Not so much for Austin, but because he was being built up to fight McMahon a non-wrestler. It just sounded uninteresting to me. However, I loved that time period. The New Age Outlaws were great and made tag team wrestling fun.
Actually looking back the WWE didn't depend as heavily on Austin either which helped the KoTR where he lost his title to Kane only to win it the next day is not really remembered for that bit of crappy booking. It is remembered for Mankind/Taker HIAC. The Summerslam that year had a rather unappealing Undertaker/Austin match that they would mock on Nitro. However that PPV also had Shamrock/Owen in a Lion's den match and a really great IC title match between HHH/Rock.
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Post by Mozenrath on Sept 12, 2009 23:34:15 GMT -5
What I find funny is today Cena gets trashed by making poop jokes, when The Rock gets praised for talking anal insertions, beastiality, gay references from time to time amongst other things. I guess nostalgia has a grasp on people. It does, which is the reason this thread even exists. Smarks wiped their asses with Rock and Austin, too. Maybe not AS much, but to say they didn't means one would of had to of spent 2000-2001 on the computer with your eyelids stapled shut.
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Post by Bob Schlapowitz on Sept 12, 2009 23:42:37 GMT -5
What I find funny is today Cena gets trashed by making poop jokes, when The Rock gets praised for talking anal insertions, beastiality, gay references from time to time amongst other things. I guess nostalgia has a grasp on people. That makes me laugh too. Come to think of it, I don't remember Cena actually making poop jokes in...........well, at all. But facts have never before gotten in the way of IWC hate, now have they?
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Post by Mayonnaise on Sept 12, 2009 23:44:51 GMT -5
What I find funny is today Cena gets trashed by making poop jokes, when The Rock gets praised for talking anal insertions, beastiality, gay references from time to time amongst other things. I guess nostalgia has a grasp on people. That makes me laugh too. Come to think of it, I don't remember Cena actually making poop jokes in...........well, at all. But facts have never before gotten in the way of IWC hate, now have they? JBL = Poopy painted on a limo? Outside of that, I would rather watch a million Cena promos than Rock ones (minus the Concert promos). Can't stand either man.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Sept 12, 2009 23:46:31 GMT -5
What I find funny is today Cena gets trashed by making poop jokes, when The Rock gets praised for talking anal insertions, beastiality, gay references from time to time amongst other things. I guess nostalgia has a grasp on people. That makes me laugh too. Come to think of it, I don't remember Cena actually making poop jokes in...........well, at all. But facts have never before gotten in the way of IWC hate, now have they? Cena ALWAYS made Poop references in his "5 Questions" segment on WWE.com. He said something about "We've got Chain Gang clear toilets comin', yall!", and "You want to know when [Barry Bonds] takes a dump!", among other references...
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Post by Bob Schlapowitz on Sept 12, 2009 23:51:42 GMT -5
I don't watch those 5 Questions segments, so I did not know that.
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Post by casualobserver on Sept 13, 2009 0:34:38 GMT -5
I'd attribute the product failure to fundamental shifts in our key demographic, coupled with the overall crumminess of Cena.
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