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Post by r. on Jan 2, 2011 16:03:08 GMT -5
I don't "pretend it's real" at all. I want the most entertaining guy out there. I don't care if he's lost eight million matches and won two. I'm not touching the Indy vs WWE comparison because I don't personally understand it or care. If wins and losses truly mattered as much as people say then nobody would be a star at all. How can we buy Cena as star when he lost to Billy Kidman when he started out? How about HHH main eventing a WrestleMania four years after being jobbed out for for almost a whole year and losing in seconds to the Warrior? Because wins a losses matter in real sports. Chris Jericho could lose to Percy Watson two weeks in a row and still have more heat than 99% of the roster. That's bull and you know it, Firstly an established guy getting fed to scrubs does hurt them. Just look at MVP poised to be the next megastar until he was saddled with a losing streak angle, it killed his momentum dead and he never recovered from it.
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Psychoblue
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Post by Psychoblue on Jan 2, 2011 16:20:29 GMT -5
I don't "pretend it's real" at all. I want the most entertaining guy out there. I don't care if he's lost eight million matches and won two. I'm not touching the Indy vs WWE comparison because I don't personally understand it or care. If wins and losses truly mattered as much as people say then nobody would be a star at all. How can we buy Cena as star when he lost to Billy Kidman when he started out? How about HHH main eventing a WrestleMania four years after being jobbed out for for almost a whole year and losing in seconds to the Warrior? Because wins a losses matter in real sports. Chris Jericho could lose to Percy Watson two weeks in a row and still have more heat than 99% of the roster. That's bull and you know it, Firstly an established guy getting fed to scrubs does hurt them. Just look at MVP poised to be the next megastar until he was saddled with a losing streak angle, it killed his momentum dead and he never recovered from it. MVP was regaining his momentum after the streak until he moved to RAW and all of his storylines were completely dropped. All it takes is a few key wins before people take you seriously again, even after a long time of losing. It's when nothing comes out of the losses and you become just another face in the crowd that you should start to worry. Kaval was still in the Smackdown opening before Masters (an absolute disgrace, in hindsight, considering how deserving Masters is of some recognition) and was given time for his matches on the main show as opposed to Superstars. He wasn't willing to stick around long enough for a chance for his fortunes to change, so he packed up and left.
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r.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by r. on Jan 2, 2011 16:22:01 GMT -5
That's bull and you know it, Firstly an established guy getting fed to scrubs does hurt them. Just look at MVP poised to be the next megastar until he was saddled with a losing streak angle, it killed his momentum dead and he never recovered from it. MVP was regaining his momentum after the streak until he moved to RAW and all of his storylines were completely dropped. All it takes is a few key wins before people take you seriously again, even after a long time of losing. It's when nothing comes out of the losses and you become just another face in the crowd that you should start to worry. Kaval was still in the Smackdown opening before Masters (an absolute disgrace, in hindsight, considering how deserving Masters is of some recognition) and was given time for his matches on the main show as opposed to Superstars. He wasn't willing to stick around long enough for a chance for his fortunes to change, so he packed up and left. I'm not denying that, He should of stayed a bit longer, But if your entire carrear is defined by mostly losses I don't see how the crowd will suudenly be hot for you, all you are to them is a nobody who loses all the time.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jan 2, 2011 16:29:09 GMT -5
Because WWE moves so fast that one decent promo and a couple of wins changes everything.
You can be the ultimate jobber, but a couple of wins and a decent story can change you totally. Look at Santino, from joke to Tag Champ and th cobra from joke to actual devestating move.
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r.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Bye
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Post by r. on Jan 2, 2011 16:33:06 GMT -5
Because WWE moves so fast that one decent promo and a couple of wins changes everything. You can be the ultimate jobber, but a couple of wins and a decent story can change you totally. Look at Santino, from joke to Tag Champ and th cobra from joke to actual devestating move. I'll steal a quote from the miz...really?...devestating move?..........k Back to the topic at hand, A couple of WINS is the key phrase here, Kaval did not have thos couple of wins.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jan 2, 2011 16:34:32 GMT -5
He's won with it, several weeks, won a title with it, and it's been sold as one.
So regardless of how you sit at home rolling your eyes, WWE has decided to build it as such for now.
So yes, really, a devestating move.
And on topic, the key word you missed out and that he either didnt see coming, or didnt fancy waiting for, is (or more was) YET.
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r.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by r. on Jan 2, 2011 16:43:09 GMT -5
He's won with it, several weeks, won a title with it, and it's been sold as one. So regardless of how you sit at home rolling your eyes, WWE has decided to build it as such for now. So yes, really, a devestating move. And on topic, the key word you missed out and that he either didnt see coming, or didnt fancy waiting for, is (or more was) YET. No I saw that and agreed, but was pointing out how he did'nt get wins, And lets say for argument he did wait and still got nowhere, Should he just sit warming the bench until they decide to throw him a bone? Added note, by that mesaure the Rollup is the deadliest move ever to be devised.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jan 2, 2011 16:53:25 GMT -5
Neither of us can see potential and now non-existant futures. For all we know, WWE could have pulled the trigger on a push for him next week, then again, he could have waited until the draft, then again, maybe it never would have come.
For my money, 4 months on the main roster is a short time and, if he left for the reason of not winning enough or getting storylines he felt he deserved or simply wanted, then that is/was silly. If he left for another reason like the schedule or a back stage issue that hasn't come to light yet, that is perhaps different.
We wont know until Kaval decides to tell us what happens, if indeed he ever does.
However, for me, I would take the security of WWE and the money there over being an Indie talent or 'hedge' grappler. But I'm not Kaval, and his decision to leave was his alone.
The point still stands that had he decided to wait, and had they pulled the trigger, he could have been credible for whatever they wanted in the space between two monthly PPVs.
And as for the roll up comment....well, no one is using the roll up as a finisher, unlike the Cobra, which Santino is using and it is being put over. So the facetious comment doesnt really fit, because the point is in the presentation, irregardless of how you feel about the move.
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Post by Jacob Lee on Jan 2, 2011 18:14:57 GMT -5
Neither of us can see potential and now non-existant futures. For all we know, WWE could have pulled the trigger on a push for him next week, then again, he could have waited until the draft, then again, maybe it never would have come. For my money, 4 months on the main roster is a short time and, if he left for the reason of not winning enough or getting storylines he felt he deserved or simply wanted, then that is/was silly. If he left for another reason like the schedule or a back stage issue that hasn't come to light yet, that is perhaps different. We wont know until Kaval decides to tell us what happens, if indeed he ever does. However, for me, I would take the security of WWE and the money there over being an Indie talent or 'hedge' grappler. But I'm not Kaval, and his decision to leave was his alone. The point still stands that had he decided to wait, and had they pulled the trigger, he could have been credible for whatever they wanted in the space between two monthly PPVs. And as for the roll up comment....well, no one is using the roll up as a finisher, unlike the Cobra, which Santino is using and it is being put over. So the facetious comment doesnt really fit, because the point is in the presentation, irregardless of how you feel about the move. This. The point I was trying to make is that I wish they WERE doing more with Kaval. The issue is that I cannot fault WWE for their treatment of him for a couple reasons. 1. He wasn't fired. He asked for his release. Now if they had fired him it would be a different story. 2. He was brought up at a time when the story lines are pretty set for the next few months. For all Kaval knows they might have given him a "Backlund run" in the Rumble. He'll never know because he quit after a few months on the roster. 3. What kind of treatment is Kaval expecting? We've seen him in ROH and TNA because we are hardcore fans. Do you think the average fan saw his awesome match with Danielson and Daniels in ROH? Probably not. He was going to have to build some kind of body of work in WWE. I still stand by the notion that any guy is just a few wins away from being taken seriously as a star. Look at JBL!
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r.
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
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Post by r. on Jan 2, 2011 18:49:18 GMT -5
Neither of us can see potential and now non-existant futures. For all we know, WWE could have pulled the trigger on a push for him next week, then again, he could have waited until the draft, then again, maybe it never would have come. For my money, 4 months on the main roster is a short time and, if he left for the reason of not winning enough or getting storylines he felt he deserved or simply wanted, then that is/was silly. If he left for another reason like the schedule or a back stage issue that hasn't come to light yet, that is perhaps different. We wont know until Kaval decides to tell us what happens, if indeed he ever does. However, for me, I would take the security of WWE and the money there over being an Indie talent or 'hedge' grappler. But I'm not Kaval, and his decision to leave was his alone. The point still stands that had he decided to wait, and had they pulled the trigger, he could have been credible for whatever they wanted in the space between two monthly PPVs. And as for the roll up comment....well, no one is using the roll up as a finisher, unlike the Cobra, which Santino is using and it is being put over. So the facetious comment doesnt really fit, because the point is in the presentation, irregardless of how you feel about the move. This. The point I was trying to make is that I wish they WERE doing more with Kaval. The issue is that I cannot fault WWE for their treatment of him for a couple reasons. 1. He wasn't fired. He asked for his release. Now if they had fired him it would be a different story. 2. He was brought up at a time when the story lines are pretty set for the next few months. For all Kaval knows they might have given him a "Backlund run" in the Rumble. He'll never know because he quit after a few months on the roster. 3. What kind of treatment is Kaval expecting? We've seen him in ROH and TNA because we are hardcore fans. Do you think the average fan saw his awesome match with Danielson and Daniels in ROH? Probably not. He was going to have to build some kind of body of work in WWE. I still stand by the notion that any guy is just a few wins away from being taken seriously as a star. Look at JBL! Again I can only point to the phrase A FEW WINS, He did'nt get that, I have as from the start agreed that he did'nt stick out long enough, but if his comment is believed to be true then creative had no future plans for him, That being said and again reiterating myself if he stuck around for say a month or so more then I think this would all be alot more black and white. As for ROH from what I hear his booking fee is too much for them to be forking over, TNA may be an option, only time will tell. I'd say his best bet is japan or mexico at this point. As for the cobra, It can be presented and put over as death that =/= it actually being devestating, but that's just semantics.
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jan 2, 2011 19:01:32 GMT -5
Well, tbf, this is professional wrestling, the point of all moves is to look good, but not to actually hurt, therefore, the fact that pain is 'caused' by any of the moves is semantics.
Similarly, and talking of semantics, the point I was making was that if WWE wanted to do something with Kaval it would only take a few wins at that point. It doesnt matter if he lost all the way up to that point as long as they presented him well when/if they wanted to do something with him.
Leaving now, as jakelee said, just before the Road to Wrestlemania where the only storylines they focus on is the main event ones is perhaps a bit short sighted.
If for nothing more than the money, he could have at least given them a year on the active roster before deciding to leave.
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Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on Jan 2, 2011 19:25:57 GMT -5
The fact that Michael cole actually addressed Kavals release on Smackdown (NXT doesnt count) gets me wondering whats going on. Worked shoot? Apparently, he seems to be charging astronomical booking rates, maybe pricing himself out of competition to avoid Daniel Bryan's issue of working indy dates while on a WWE schedule?
I know this is looking really deeply into it, but with the WWE Ive learnt to never say never. This time last year I watched Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels hug.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Jan 2, 2011 19:30:25 GMT -5
I think Kaval was in a better position than any of us to judge how he thought WWE intended to use him.
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Post by HMARK Center on Jan 3, 2011 0:32:18 GMT -5
Jake The Snake is a prime example of a guy who never won any titles, but managed to stay over because he wasn't treated as an afterthought. to me, losing doesn't make you an afterthought. He was frequently seen backstage, always got his entrance music, usually got a finisher attempt in. Losing isn't a big deal, if the angle you're in is well constructed and the crowd remains invested in you. However, that's now how current WWE cards work besides the main event (Santino, a comedy gimmick, doesn't really count, very different situation). If Kaval, or Christian, or MVP, or whomever, were involved in a series of interesting feuds/angles, yet came up on the short end of the stick in each of them while still getting a few chances to keep their heat now and then... then that's fine. Babyface midcarders over the years have done just fine without winning the big ones all the time, so long as they're left looking strong, still getting wins when needed, and are kept relevant. 1990 WWF Dusty Rhodes, for example, didn't win his feud with the Macho King, but the crowd was sure as hell behind him when he got his hands on Ted DiBiase later in the year. During that time, he squashed jobbers, got some high profile moments on shows like Saturday Night's Main Event, was allowed promo (read: NOT "backstage skit", but actual PROMO) time, even captained a Survivor Series team. Problem is, WWE midcard angles are infamous at this point for being, well...nonexistent. I'm sure they kept Kaval looking strong in some of his matches, but if he's not involved in an angle or doing anything that gets the crowd to become invested in his success, then what does it matter? He's just losing at that point, and that's what he'll be associated with. The booking also just speaks for itself at some point: Randy Orton basically squashing DiBiase and Rhodes at Wrestlemania by himself? Fine, he's the main eventer and they're the mid carders...but why book that match at all? Who benefitted? The already over Orton? Again, losing itself isn't the issue: it's losing, and having no direction whatsoever. There is NOTHING worse in wrestling than floundering, not knowing where you're going and what the writers have in mind for you. You're in limbo, you're not earning any more money, and your name brand recognition is likely taking a hit. It's a risky game: like I said before, guys are left to either wait it out and hope that the company takes a liking to them (e.g. Chavo), or leave now, try to pump up their brand name, and try again later.
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Post by King (Super) Dragunov on Jan 3, 2011 1:08:00 GMT -5
Because WWE moves so fast that one decent promo and a couple of wins changes everything. You can be the ultimate jobber, but a couple of wins and a decent story can change you totally. Look at Santino, from joke to Tag Champ and th cobra from joke to actual devestating move. I'll steal a quote from the miz...really?...devestating move?..........k . no joke, Legion, but really? are we watching the same shows?
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Legion
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Post by Legion on Jan 3, 2011 5:39:07 GMT -5
It doesnt matter how you feel about the move, it is being sold as something that can win a match and take a guy down, and therefore, is being sold as a devestating move.
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Remix
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Post by Remix on Jan 3, 2011 7:24:31 GMT -5
And recently wrestlers have been tagging out to escape the Cobra. It's being sold as a legit move, as was the Worm and The People's Elbow before it. Deal with it.
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BigWill
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Post by BigWill on Jan 3, 2011 14:44:23 GMT -5
Actually lately the Cobra hasn't been sold as devastating. It seems they're trying to make it a setup for a roll-up. Which is much better because my imagination isn't so great that I'll believe that move can knock someone out.
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PKO
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Post by PKO on Jan 3, 2011 15:10:43 GMT -5
I've already said I'm disappointed Kaval is gone, and I'll leave it at that. What I came in here to say is that I keep keep mis-reading Kaval as Kane, Kelly or Kofi and then if anyone's name is in a thread below this one...whoa nelly! It's scary...
Carry on.
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Post by Citizen Zero on Jan 3, 2011 18:33:31 GMT -5
Isn't the Cobra pretty much a fist to the throat? That'd be pretty devastating, actually...
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