Vampiro138
Hank Scorpio
the greatest vampire in the HISTORY of our sport
Posts: 5,755
|
Post by Vampiro138 on May 13, 2011 4:27:40 GMT -5
well according to Hogan all the fan's were chanting Bret screwed Bret when Shawn held Bret down for the pin at Wrestlemania 16...so im gonna go with the fans and say that Bret screwed Bret...just like hogan said the fan's were chanting
|
|
|
Post by Mr. Socko's Brother on May 13, 2011 4:36:03 GMT -5
I mean, what did Bret expect to happen? That Vince would allow the guy soon to go to WCW to beat the one remaining star he had left? Did you really expect the promoter to just have Bret walk out the next night, relinquish his title and stroll out into the WCW sunset leaving the meagre WWF wrestlers to compete for the scraps.Bret had several weeks left on his WWF contract, it wasn't like it was a real emergency situation where he was going to debut in WCW the next night. They had plenty of time to work out a different way for him to drop the title, hell he was willing to job it to almost anyone but Shawn Michaels.And if Vince had a problem with it, he shouldn't have allowed for creative control in Bret's WWF contract. Yes, as I remember it being told he was willing to drop it to Taker or Jarrett. And there may be another name I'm forgetting. But anyway, while Vince might have had doubts about Jarrett, I see no reason why putting the belt back on Taker wouldn't have worked.
|
|
Schemer
Don Corleone
Total class wit' a capital K!
Posts: 1,950
|
Post by Schemer on May 13, 2011 5:48:31 GMT -5
Vince and Bret screwed Bret. Vince by letting the situation to spiral out of his control and Bret himself by refusing to drop the title like Vince asked. In fact, Bret, who claimed to be such a traditionalist should have gone by the old rule that when you're on your way out and you're the champion, you drop the belt to who the promoter tells you to.
|
|
|
Post by FUNK_US/BRODUS on May 13, 2011 6:10:10 GMT -5
Vince was paranoid after Madusa that someone a lot bigger with a title could do the same.
Shawn was a total dick that wouledve willingly screwed Bret if only for his own personal giggles.
Bret was a huge mark for himself and took himself way too seriously.
Add those 3 together, and the result isnt surprising.
|
|
repomark
Unicron
For Mash Get Smash
Posts: 3,050
|
Post by repomark on May 13, 2011 6:14:20 GMT -5
I think Schemer has hit the nail on the head - both Vince and Bret were to blame for the whole mess.
Vince was understandably paranoid given Bret was going to his main competitor. Combined with the fact he was losing to WCW week in week out at this stage, this made him in an unreasonable mindset and lead him to do what he did. Vince also reneged on the contract he had agreed with Bret to keep in WWE to allow him to go to WCW - supposedly to do with finance although you could make an argument that it was more to do with the fact he felt Bret did not fit the mould for his new edgier product.
So Bret knows he is leaving, and does not want his character ruined before he goes. That I suppose is reasonable, but he also realises being a wrestling "traditionalist" that he has to drop the belt before he goes. His suggestion of forfeiting it on Raw the night after Survivor Series was a ridiculous and I feel a little insulting to Vince - again firing an anger in him which lead him to do what he did.
Pure and simple Vince had told Bret to lose the match in Montreal. I don't care if it is Canada - wrestlers lose when and where the promoter tells them to. It would not hurt his character just to lose there as Bret stated. The fact is, Vince when Bret refused to lose should have negotiated by saying that there could be a screwjob finish (no pun intended) where by Triple H and Chyna could interfere and allow HBK to win. This way Bret still looks strong, HBK wins the belt and all is well with both parties.
But Vince didn't do this - at least not in any of the sources I have heard talking about it.
So assuming Bret refused the finish proposed above, he still had a month to go on his contract after Survivor Series. Very easy from there to have him drop the belt to anyone on Raw - including HBK - when it is not in Canada. This is maybe pandering to Bret, but at least it gets the belt of him.
However, if Bret refused the above then that in my view makes him in every way to blame for what happened. I do not think the negotiation ever went down that route though, so that is why I would blame both parties.
I can see where both are coming from. Vince did what he felt he had to because a performer was refusing to do what he told them to, and Bret felt betrayed after 13 odd years loyal service that a man who at various times he has regarded as a father figure did that to him.
Still, they have kissed and made up now.
|
|
Schemer
Don Corleone
Total class wit' a capital K!
Posts: 1,950
|
Post by Schemer on May 13, 2011 6:16:02 GMT -5
I think though Vince deep down would've known Bret wouldn't do that... But he had good reason to be afraid... All the world needed was to see Bret spit on his world championship... It could've put him out completely...
Shawn should get a lion's share of the blame for being such a douchebag, but yeah. One and one and one is three and screwed.
|
|
|
Post by Bob Schlapowitz on May 13, 2011 6:22:29 GMT -5
He wasn't screwed' at all. The notion that someone is 'screwed' during the course of a predetermined event which is always determined by the promoter by having an ending determined by the promoter is ridiculous. It's like Leonardo DiCaprio holding a grudge against James Cameron for killing him off in Titanic. Last minute script change that one of the performers wasn't told about. That's all. I mean, what did Bret expect to happen? That Vince would allow the guy soon to go to WCW to beat the one remaining star he had left? Did you really expect the promoter to just have Bret walk out the next night, relinquish his title and stroll out into the WCW sunset leaving the meagre WWF wrestlers to compete for the scraps. Even if you think Vince did the wrong thing, anyone that dumb and naive as Bret was to think ANY promoter would allow anything like that to happen, deserves all that's coming to him in respect of any unpalatable ending to his WWF tenure. You wonder how someone brought up in the business could be so monumentally idiotic to think it would happen. It'd be like someone cast to play the role of Herod actually thinking it's possible the script would end up casting him as the good guy. it just boggles the mind that he could have been so dumb about the whole thing. This is the best post I've ever read on the "screwjob".
|
|
|
Post by MichaelMartini on May 13, 2011 6:35:34 GMT -5
He wasn't screwed' at all. The notion that someone is 'screwed' during the course of a predetermined event which is always determined by the promoter by having an ending determined by the promoter is ridiculous. It's like Leonardo DiCaprio holding a grudge against James Cameron for killing him off in Titanic. Last minute script change that one of the performers wasn't told about. That's all. I mean, what did Bret expect to happen? That Vince would allow the guy soon to go to WCW to beat the one remaining star he had left? Did you really expect the promoter to just have Bret walk out the next night, relinquish his title and stroll out into the WCW sunset leaving the meagre WWF wrestlers to compete for the scraps. Even if you think Vince did the wrong thing, anyone that dumb and naive as Bret was to think ANY promoter would allow anything like that to happen, deserves all that's coming to him in respect of any unpalatable ending to his WWF tenure. You wonder how someone brought up in the business could be so monumentally idiotic to think it would happen. It'd be like someone cast to play the role of Herod actually thinking it's possible the script would end up casting him as the good guy. it just boggles the mind that he could have been so dumb about the whole thing. This is the best post I've ever read on the "screwjob". Sure, if you ignore all the details and circumstances.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 13, 2011 6:44:40 GMT -5
Bret. If he agrees to lose to Shawn, none of that happens.
In the long run, the Screwjob actually helped Bret's career. If he jobbed to Shawn, left for WCW, then had an unspectacular (shortened) run, he would have been largely forgotten. He milked that Screwjob for 12 years and after finally coming back he is now irrelevant again.
|
|
|
Post by MichaelMartini on May 13, 2011 6:48:48 GMT -5
Bret. If he agrees to lose to Shawn, none of that happens. In the long run, the Screwjob actually helped Bret's career. If he jobbed to Shawn, left for WCW, then had an unspectacular (shortened) run, he would have been largely forgotten. He milked that Screwjob for 12 years and after finally coming back he is now irrelevant again. It helps Vince even more. Out of this comes the heel Vince character and an angle hotter than the nWo, which makes me wonder when Vince had the idea for this. Was it just before the screwjob and that's why he handled things the way he did? If that's the case than he really is a genius.
|
|
|
Post by BurtSampson on May 13, 2011 7:55:29 GMT -5
This is the best post I've ever read on the "screwjob". Sure, if you ignore all the details and circumstances. What details? Just because Shawn and Bret were having what amounts to high school drama backstage, and just because Bret Hart fancied himself some kind of maple leaf messiah, doesn't mean that at the end of the day, he can go so directly against the business he claimed to love so much
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 13, 2011 9:04:00 GMT -5
I chose Pat Patterson, one of the men Bret "trusted".
Why? That's one of Bret's closest confidants. Patterson knew full well that the finish he was mapping out wasn't going to happen, yet did so anyway.
(One thing that wasn't mentioned: Bret almost took the I-C title with him to WCW in 1992, up until Vince reminded him he had a contract and was willing to take it to court if he jumped. So, I can't blame Vince in the least for having his guard up.)
|
|
|
Post by Hugh Mungus on May 13, 2011 9:26:57 GMT -5
Other: Vince Russo.
Wasn't he part of the booking team at the time?
|
|
|
Post by "Dashing" Dr.VonPhoenix on May 13, 2011 9:30:51 GMT -5
A Triple H option? How could I possibly resist? ;D
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 13, 2011 9:31:23 GMT -5
Personally I think the blame falls on Bret, but I've heard Triple H came up with the idea in the first place. Probably not true but still.
|
|
|
Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on May 13, 2011 9:57:30 GMT -5
Everybody including Bret.
But they've all buried the hatchet (as far as we can tell), so it's moot.
|
|
|
Post by The Dark Order Inferno on May 13, 2011 10:06:16 GMT -5
(One thing that wasn't mentioned: Bret almost took the I-C title with him to WCW in 1992, up until Vince reminded him he had a contract and was willing to take it to court if he jumped. So, I can't blame Vince in the least for having his guard up.) Has that ever been confirmed anywhere beyond rumours from old dirtsheets? I would have thought if that was remotely true it would have been used to destroy Bret's reputation after the screwjob, much like allegedly holding up the WWF was used to smear Warrior. Heck, if he tried to leave with the midcard title, I can't see any company trusting him with the main belt. I would vote for all of the above given a choice as there were no innocent parties but I went with Vince as even now, the buck stops with him.
|
|
|
Post by Pooh Carlson on May 13, 2011 10:50:23 GMT -5
It was me Bret, it was me all along! How dare you, El Dandy? After he defended you!
|
|
kdawg
Bubba Ho-Tep
Posts: 659
|
Post by kdawg on May 13, 2011 11:24:55 GMT -5
Vince screwed Bret ultimately because Bret screwed Bret if that makes sense.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 13, 2011 12:18:24 GMT -5
Has anything good ever come from people having "creative control" in their contract?
Seems to just be the "Nah not gonna be jobbing tonight, not feeling it" clause.
|
|