erisi236
Fry's dog Seymour
... enjoys the rich, smooth taste of Camels.
Not good! Not good! Not good!
Posts: 21,904
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Post by erisi236 on Jun 23, 2011 16:53:51 GMT -5
Bret should have done the job.
I don't know the numbers being tossed around but couldn't he have stayed with the WWF? Obvious hindsight not withstanding, but a little loyalty would have gone a long way.
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Lila
El Dandy
Slip N Slide World Champion 1997
Posts: 8,905
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Post by Lila on Jun 23, 2011 17:12:57 GMT -5
You know, reading what everyone is saying and me remembering, I wonder if Vince was just trying to get rid of Bret. I always found the relationship between Bret and Shawn to be like two bitter brothers fighting for their father's attention. Vince probably couldn't take what was going on backstage anymore and felt the need to get rid of one to cool things down. The lockeroom was split between Shawn and Bret. Vince probably felt he had more use of Shawn than Bret, espcially since Bret's pro-Canada turn.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Jun 23, 2011 17:57:24 GMT -5
Since this point was brought up on the last page, IIRC Pat Patterson definitely WAS in on the screwjob. I believe both Bret and Shawn have mentioned that Patterson was the one who suggested the "Shawn puts Bret in the sharpshooter during a ref bump" spot to Bret, and Patterson spent the morning before Survivor Series practicing shoot holds with Michaels to use in the event that Bret got violent after realizing what happened.
So, yeah, everyone screwed Bret. Vince, Hebner, Shawn, HHH, Pat, Bret himself... it was one big Bret-screwing orgy.
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Post by celticjobber on Jun 23, 2011 20:05:41 GMT -5
Bret should have done the job. I don't know the numbers being tossed around but couldn't he have stayed with the WWF? Obvious hindsight not withstanding, but a little loyalty would have gone a long way. Vince basically asked Bret to leave because he didn't want to pay Bret what he was owed on the 20 year contract he had signed one year earlier. Bret was offered a huge deal from WCW and wanted to stay with WWE. But they "couldn't afford him" any longer. Bret didn't have a problem with "doing the job" to almost anyone, just not to Shawn because he was basically his worst enemy, IRL and disrespected him many times. And because he had creative control in his contract, he had every right not to. And as mentioned before, Bret had almost a month left on his WWF contract at the time of Survivor Series so there was plenty of time to get the belt off him before he showed up on Nitro.
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salTy
El Dandy
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Post by salTy on Jun 24, 2011 0:39:28 GMT -5
Bret lacked the upper body strength to prevent skinny, little Shawn Michaels from holding him down and pinning him while the crowd chanted "Bret screwed Bret" at Wrestlemania 16... 17, whatever.
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Post by triplezs on Jun 24, 2011 1:23:14 GMT -5
Assuming it's not a work, which I think is possible, Vince did.
Vince initially breached the 20-year contract and in conversations with Bret (per Meltzer and Wrestling With Shadows), he encouraged him to take WCW's offer. Again, per Meltzer's post Screwjob Article, Vince flip-flopped on Bret staying and intentionally offered bad storylines and results in Bret's direction to chase him off to WCW.
In both Bischoff's book and Bret Hart's DVD, Bischoff said Bret could spend the remainder of his WWE contract in WWE and there was no rush for him to go to WCW. There certainly could be a different way.
Also, Vince's concern with Bret showcasing the belt on WCW seem flat to me. I'm not sure Bret would do that and it's a little hypocritical of Vince considering WWF allowed Ric Flair to pose with the WCW title when he came over in 1991. It's hard for me to feel sorry for Vince in this area since he allowed Flair to trash the WCW belt and showcase it on several episodes of Superstars and PPVs.
Does Bret appear whiny about it and have all parties milked the Montreal Screwjob a little too much, particularly in promos and storylines? Probably so...one of the reasons why I think it may have been a work.
But not to give Vince at least some share of the blame is giving him a free pass. He initially breached Bret's contract, which was wrong on his part. Reading all these books and watching these interviews/shoots, it almost feels like Vince decided the WWF was not big enough for Bret and HBK and he chose HBK.
One person Bret fans/marks don't give enough blame to is Triple H. Triple H was a mediocre midcarder until he crossed paths with Shawn Michaels and it sounds like the screwjob proposal was initially made by HHH. Somehow HHH had this much influence with Vince even though he had yet to prove himself on an individual basis.
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Post by thelonewolf527 on Jun 24, 2011 1:58:59 GMT -5
Where's the option for "You"
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Post by Evilution E5150 on Jun 24, 2011 2:01:21 GMT -5
Gail Kim?
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2011 8:03:15 GMT -5
The more time that passes, the more I realize that Bret was being completely unrealistic.
He wanted to either forfeit the title on RAW or lose it to between Surivor Series and when he left.
Shawn was the hottest act in the company, with Austin being injured. So it made most sense to give him the title. And how would you as a fan feel if you spent $30 on a PPV that ended in a DQ. Only the have the title change hands for free the next week on RAW?
Also Bret was getting $3 million to work half the schedule. It wasn't like Vince was throwing himout on the streets.
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Post by paulbearer on Jun 24, 2011 8:37:56 GMT -5
His wife lol ?
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Post by 2CSultan on Jun 24, 2011 20:48:32 GMT -5
It was Bret. I thought it was in 97 (I was a HBK mark) and I still think so now (I'm a HBK smark). Seriousl, Bret wanting to move on to another company without dropping the belt was ridiculous. At a time when WWF was so competitive, it would look like he had beaten everyone they had and moved on to bigger things.
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Lardlad
El Dandy
Live reaction to @WWE #WWENetwork
Posts: 8,250
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Post by Lardlad on Jul 4, 2011 19:58:15 GMT -5
Vince McMahon 80 vs. Bret Hart 82
Helluva poll....
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
Posts: 5,725
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Post by nisidhe on Jul 4, 2011 22:39:33 GMT -5
If I've answered this question already, please forgive me. I've been away from this topic for a while.
I've always thought Vince was at fault here, primarily for being neglectful during the whole fiasco. At the time he had advised Bret of the need to breach the contract, Vince should have already planned out an exit strategy for Bret well before Survivor Series, so that Bret would not be either wearing or competing for the belt at that time. Bret was still a hot-enough property for Vince that he could still prove a major coup for WCW, notwithstanding what actually happened. Shamrock could have been a good transition champion, as would have Austin or the Undertaker.
However, Vince wanted Bret vs. Shawn at Survivor Series and was going to have it come hell or high water. He was gambling on Bret being totally professional when he (Vince) could not be the same way himself, against the one opponent with whom almost anyone would have forgiven Bret for taking liberties. What would have happened if Bret had decided to shoot on Michaels during the match, to the point of injury, then do his own version of the Fingerpoke of Doom to give Michaels the title?
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Post by Crazy Diamond on Jul 4, 2011 22:48:48 GMT -5
Assuming it's not a work, which I think is possible, Vince did. Vince initially breached the 20-year contract and in conversations with Bret (per Meltzer and Wrestling With Shadows), he encouraged him to take WCW's offer. Again, per Meltzer's post Screwjob Article, Vince flip-flopped on Bret staying and intentionally offered bad storylines and results in Bret's direction to chase him off to WCW. In both Bischoff's book and Bret Hart's DVD, Bischoff said Bret could spend the remainder of his WWE contract in WWE and there was no rush for him to go to WCW. There certainly could be a different way. Also, Vince's concern with Bret showcasing the belt on WCW seem flat to me. I'm not sure Bret would do that and it's a little hypocritical of Vince considering WWF allowed Ric Flair to pose with the WCW title when he came over in 1991. It's hard for me to feel sorry for Vince in this area since he allowed Flair to trash the WCW belt and showcase it on several episodes of Superstars and PPVs. Does Bret appear whiny about it and have all parties milked the Montreal Screwjob a little too much, particularly in promos and storylines? Probably so...one of the reasons why I think it may have been a work. But not to give Vince at least some share of the blame is giving him a free pass. He initially breached Bret's contract, which was wrong on his part. Reading all these books and watching these interviews/shoots, it almost feels like Vince decided the WWF was not big enough for Bret and HBK and he chose HBK. One person Bret fans/marks don't give enough blame to is Triple H. Triple H was a mediocre midcarder until he crossed paths with Shawn Michaels and it sounds like the screwjob proposal was initially made by HHH. Somehow HHH had this much influence with Vince even though he had yet to prove himself on an individual basis. I still don't know how HHH was on the booking team as far back as 1996. That shit sounded absurd. For all the complaining about the Kliq, I think they were able to get away with what they did because pretty much no one would stand up to them. Also, if Montreal was a work, then WWE wouldn't have tried to use that in their case when they were countersuing Martha Hart in 1999. They claimed that Bret was using her to get back at WWF for what happened at SS99. If it was a storyline, they wouldn't have been able to bring that up in court.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Jul 5, 2011 0:24:09 GMT -5
It was Bret. I thought it was in 97 (I was a HBK mark) and I still think so now (I'm a HBK smark). Seriousl, Bret wanting to move on to another company without dropping the belt was ridiculous. At a time when WWF was so competitive, it would look like he had beaten everyone they had and moved on to bigger things. Bret didn't want to move on to another company though. Especially with Hogan running the show. Bret already put Micheals over. He gave him everything. A Wrestlemania Ironman match clean win. Now he's supposed to do the job in his own country to a flag humping Shawn? It would've ruined him forever.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jul 5, 2011 0:26:49 GMT -5
Reading Bret's book, Bret's wife is the LAST person that screwed him....
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Post by kingoftheindies on Jul 5, 2011 0:32:33 GMT -5
Messy situation all around
Shawn for really being unprofessional to Bret to the point Bret would not job to him.
Bret for buying too much into his own hype at the time and feeling that he needed the title then
Vince for not stepping in and trying to play his top 2 stars against each other.
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Post by nerdinitupagain on Jul 5, 2011 0:35:07 GMT -5
I'm sorry but I'll bring it up once again. There is no way Vince McMahon let's anything be a shoot in his company. At the very minimum... Bret and Vince knew what was going to happen that night. Everyone else may have been out of the loop. It's the last great act of kayfabe that would have eventually been resolved if not for Owen's death and Bret's stroke.
My entire opinion rests on the fact Vince, the control freak, would not have had a plan with this. I will take this opinion to my grave... ten years ago (14 actually) I was in on the "OMG! it has to be a shoot".. but after this many years, I give the benefit of the doubt to Vince McMahon.
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Post by cool245 on Jul 5, 2011 1:43:49 GMT -5
Since this point was brought up on the last page, IIRC Pat Patterson definitely WAS in on the screwjob. I believe both Bret and Shawn have mentioned that Patterson was the one who suggested the "Shawn puts Bret in the sharpshooter during a ref bump" spot to Bret, and Patterson spent the morning before Survivor Series practicing shoot holds with Michaels to use in the event that Bret got violent after realizing what happened. So, yeah, everyone screwed Bret. Vince, Hebner, Shawn, HHH, Pat, Bret himself... it was one big Bret-screwing orgy. I remember reading Pat suggested the spot to use in the match, but it was someone else (Hunter?) that suggested later on when Pat wasn't around to do the screwjob when the sharpshooter was applied. Jerry Brisco was the one that showed Shawn the holds to defend himself (at least according to that Confidential story awhile back).
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Jul 5, 2011 7:22:25 GMT -5
I'm sorry but I'll bring it up once again. There is no way Vince McMahon let's anything be a shoot in his company *kotc koff* Moolah and Wendi Richter was a similar double-cross. Wendi never wound up with a more lucrative contract with Vince's competitor, though. * koff koff*
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