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Post by héad.casé on Jul 5, 2011 7:55:07 GMT -5
Hell I remember Bret saying he would've even dropped the title to the freaking Brooklyn Brawler if that's what Vince wanted, he just wouldn't drop it to Shawn
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Jul 5, 2011 9:24:51 GMT -5
First of all, I am glad that the 3 main principals involved are on cordial terms. Secondly, I am glad that Bret is no longer defined by Montreal.
But to answer the poll, I chose Vince for a few reasons. Number one, he never should made that 20 year deal with Bret in the first place if he had no intention on honoring it. (Dave Meltzer has claimed that Vince breached the deal because he was afraid that Shawn, Undertaker and Austin would begin to ask for Bret Money when it came to renogotiate their deals)For all of Vince's so-called business acumen, signing Bret seems like an impulse decision made with no thought about the financial repurcussions to WWE (assuming that Vince's claim that WWE's financial health was being destroyed by WCW, which I don't really buy). Number two for playing his top 2 draws against each other. It's clear that he wanted a Bret-Shawn rematch and clearly wanted heat. What no one probably thought would happen would be legitimte heat between the guys which then puts both of them in danger if one guy decides to shoot during a match. Number three he deceived Bret by going through with the match.
Bret shouldn't have taken himself so sedriously and Shawn should have ricked Bret off like he did. But ultimately, I beleve the machonations were done by Vince
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
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Post by nisidhe on Jul 5, 2011 20:42:14 GMT -5
Dave Meltzer has claimed that Vince breached the deal because he was afraid that Shawn, Undertaker and Austin would begin to ask for Bret Money when it came to renogotiate their deals. In two of those three cases, there was little reason to fear on Vince's part. Austin, though a relative newcomer to WWF/E, was making a fortune on merchandising. Ditto for Undertaker. Both understood to an extent Bret's contribution to the business and would not necessarily demand Bret-level money; Austin because he would not have necessarily wanted to return to WCW, Undertaker because he was a friend of Bret's and, moreover, has demonstrated an enormous sense of fairness over the years. Undertaker, especially, understood how Bret came to that contract and perhaps felt that Bret was worth every penny. Vince's decision to offer such a contract may have stunk of desperation, but it had deeper roots than many acknowledge. Bischoff was courting Hart as far back as Hart's hiatus in 1996, at roughly the same time as Nash and Hall had jumped to WCW. Hart had considered jumping himself, but opted in the end to stay. There is no record, though, of Bischoff offering anything similar for Shawn Michaels, even though the perception of the Clique was that he would have jumped in a heartbeat to rejoin his friends. Perhaps Bischoff picked the one who had been wronged in the hopes that Hart would be more receptive. Perhaps Bischoff saw in Hart the key to WCW`s long-term success, as a booker, trainer and foreman who could keep the asylum running and help keep the Cruiserweights happy. The choice between Hart and Michaels was one Vince, though, had hoped to procrastinate as long as he could. I'm not sure either Hart or Michaels had it in them to start shooting - Hart because he respected the business, Michaels to keep himself safe. It is quite possible that Michaels was on seriously thin ice with Vince, who only really needed one more of Shawn`s missteps to send him packing as damaged goods. I suspect, if anything, the affair had the effect of revealing to Vince and to the public the stark difference between his view of the lockerroom and that of those who occupied it.
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percymania
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Percymania will live forever! Oh yeah!
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Post by percymania on Jul 5, 2011 20:44:26 GMT -5
Bret Hart came out of it looking like a better man, so somehow, Bret screwed Vince.
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Post by "Dashing" Dr.VonPhoenix on Jul 5, 2011 21:20:56 GMT -5
I'm actually a little surprised that Vince was leading this poll... not sure why.
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Post by Apricots And A Pear Tree on Jul 5, 2011 21:22:34 GMT -5
His wife.
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Post by papagiorgio on Jul 5, 2011 21:36:54 GMT -5
I'd probably go 60% on Bret and 40% of Vince. Bret should have dropped the belt on the way out. It is unreasonable to just think your going to give up the belt the next night on Raw. At the same time, Vince should have honored the contract he signed Bret to and not try to back out of it. I've heard conflicting reports on if Bret was willing to drop it to anyone but Shawn and at any location.
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Post by nerdinitupagain on Jul 5, 2011 22:59:40 GMT -5
While I maintain it was the greatest pro-wrestling angle of all time...
The argument "He should have dropped the title to Michaels" is absurd. Backlund should have dropped the title to Hogan, but he didn't. He choose who he did it to. He didn't even have creative control probably. The WWE had a pattern of allowing Champs to pick who they dropped the title to... and if Bret had reasonable creative control in his contract, reasonable would be IMO choosing whom he drops the belt to as a transitional champion to Michaels. Iron Sheik was not a great, deserving champ... nor would Ken Shamrock have been. Unreasonable would be the forfeiture storyline.. unreasonable would be to walk out with the WWF title.
Bret already gave Shawn the rub at WM12... Shawn was probably by that time the #1 guy, so whomever he beat for the title, doesn't hurt him.
Plus seriously... how many times are people going to gloss over Vince's inability to honor Bret's contract and make it seem like Bret was the bad guy for taking the deal?
Those are the holes I see in a lot of logic on this. Til the day I die... SS97 was not real to me. It was just the last great act of kayfabe.
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Post by MichaelMartini on Jul 6, 2011 0:32:47 GMT -5
I'm actually a little surprised that Vince was leading this poll... not sure why. You could, I don't know, maybe read the 7 pages of detailed responses?
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Post by Alex Shelley on Jul 6, 2011 1:29:59 GMT -5
Shawn.... This post would have been funnier if I had been able to find a normal-sized version of that picture...
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Lila
El Dandy
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Post by Lila on Jul 6, 2011 11:31:33 GMT -5
Shawn.... This post would have been funnier if I had been able to find a normal-sized version of that picture...More of Bret screwed Shawn according to this picture.
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Lardlad
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Live reaction to @WWE #WWENetwork
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Post by Lardlad on Jul 7, 2011 12:09:22 GMT -5
They have four kids, so she screwed him four times ... but after reading his book again recently, I don't think they screwed each other often!
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Post by MiLo Duck on Jul 7, 2011 13:18:49 GMT -5
I think both guys kind of joined forces in one big ol' screw up the more the years give me time to reflect. I watched Wrestling With Shadows again recently and what strikes me is the two men's relationship with one another. They were super tight. As I look on it it seems that they both wanted the other to back down and got pretty stubborn at the end thinking the other "owed them" and should make a sacrifice for the other after all they did in the past. They clammed up and got all tense and things got out of hand. Then they exploded.
I understand why Vince did what he did. The Alundra Blaze title dump on WCW still haunts him to this day, hell its a part of the Punk/Cena storyline we are going through at the moment. He felt cornered and didn't want to risk it. He should have had more faith in Bret's integrity, since I think he has it in spades and has always proven that.
I understand why Bret did what he did. He has lived on pride alone for almost all his life. Knowing how he was raised and what standards he was instilled with by his father I can see why dropping the belt to Michaels during that period of time was a non starter. Michaels was a huge d-bag and it insulted Hart to the core to think of him representing the business that defines Bret.
They should have come up with a transitional champ scenario. They should have worked something out, but they are both extremely proud men and ultimately too stubborn not to screw each other.
I am glad to see them getting on these days. I would like to hope they both came to realize the other's POV and be friends again.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2011 13:20:45 GMT -5
Bret screwed Bret.
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nisidhe
Hank Scorpio
O Superman....O judge....O Mom and Dad....
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Post by nisidhe on Jul 7, 2011 19:11:47 GMT -5
This'll probably end the thread, but I often wonder if Vince regrets his decision in the sense that, of the five wrestlers who have died while employed by WWF/E, at least one and as many as three of those deaths came about as an indirect result of Vince's decision to go with Shawn?
I suppose it's unfair to ask, because really nobody could have predicted Owen's death, but I suspect that Bret would, being Owen's big brother, have dissuaded Owen from doing the stunt; that eventually the Cruiserweights would have jumped ship; and that Chris and Eddie might have been helped earlier on by both Bret and Owen, among others.
Perhaps a fairer question to ask would be if Hogan might have had a hand in either Bischoff's push to get Hart or in McMahon's decision to let him go. Hogan would have had more to gain backstage from Hart jumping, as Bret would (as he proved) act as a counterbalance to Nash and Hall. A Michaels jump might have been more to Nash and Hall's advantage, but again would have created even greater friction backstage and cost WCW a lot of talent earlier.
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Post by chunkylover53 on Jul 11, 2011 14:11:29 GMT -5
Bret should have asked Stu about what he would have done in a similar situation in Stampede Wrestling. From a promoter's point of view, if Vince knew Bret was leaving, then it only makes sense that he would try to milk out one more revenue generating match out of the wrestler, before they are lost to the company. Yeah, bret would have liked to job to Taker or Jarrett or Austin, but the fact is, the only Big match you could get out of Bret at that point in time was with Shawn, because of buzz their off-screen rivalry had generated. A Bret-Shawn match was the only Main Event that was a guaranteed sell-out in Montreal, at a time when WWF was losing to WCW big time. So Vince really had no other option than to setup this match at the last major PPV Bret would be available for. Bret, for all the love of his character, should have thought of what his father would have done in a similar situation. You don't hold a gun to the head of a promoter who has paid you fair and square for close to ten years and choose your exit. You do whatever he tells you to do, because you know that your exit (as a top star of the company) is going to hurt them regardless of the results of the last match. Yes, Vince benefited more but like someone stated above, the screwjob ultimately cemented Bret's position in people's minds, which he might not have otherwise. Bret was a guy who was lumped together with guys like Steamboat and Macho Man, hailed by the smarks for their workrate, but not remembered by most of the wrestling fans in the same vein as Hogan, Warrior, Austin, Rock or even Cena. Savage was not remembered by most fans? Thats news to me.
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Lardlad
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Post by Lardlad on Jul 18, 2011 13:26:14 GMT -5
Bret is back in the lead as having screwed himself with 97 votes. Vince has 94 votes.
Don't think I've ever seen so many votes for one poll before....
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