El Dandy
Don Corleone
Who are you to doubt El Dandy?
Posts: 1,901
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Post by El Dandy on Jun 23, 2011 12:37:57 GMT -5
I believe that Pat Patterson was not "in" on the screwjob. At least that is what appeared to be the impression I got when Bret and Patterson were both on a recent roundtable show talking about the events that unfolded that night. Some boys in the back actually warned Bret not to stay on his back long and to avoid being put in a submission in case they tried to screw him, but Bret trusted his employers.
It's also been said that he was willing to drop the belt, just not to Shawn who had refused to return the favor to Bret when it was his turn to drop the belt. I don't think fans should fault Bret for using a clause in his contract that was negotiated by Vince. He did have creative control and had every right to use it, he earned it after devoting his life to the wrestling industry.
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Post by "Handsome" Whitey Fats on Jun 23, 2011 12:54:15 GMT -5
Bret screwed Bret. A wrestler leaving always goes out on his back. I'm glad it happened
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El Dandy
Don Corleone
Who are you to doubt El Dandy?
Posts: 1,901
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Post by El Dandy on Jun 23, 2011 13:02:57 GMT -5
Why would anyone be glad to see someone's career ruined? And guess what, Bret didn't want to leave, he had no choice but to after McMahon approached him and wanted out of a contract they had both negotiated, a contract in which Bret had accepted less money to remain loyal to McMahon and the WWF. Bret didn't want to go to WCW, but he had no other option when Vince approached him and let him know that he couldn't afford his contract. So, how the hell did Bret screw himself?
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Post by wrestlinggod13 on Jun 23, 2011 13:04:31 GMT -5
The blame ultimately lies at Vince's feet. He should have never allowed the whole situation to come into existence in the first place with the 'creative control' clause in Bret's contract. He could have handled things much better than he did.
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Post by Citizen Zero on Jun 23, 2011 13:43:31 GMT -5
Ironically, WCW screwed Bret more than Vince ever did.
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Post by azrael502 on Jun 23, 2011 13:59:31 GMT -5
Vince and Bret screwed Bret. Vince by letting the situation to spiral out of his control and Bret himself by refusing to drop the title like Vince asked. In fact, Bret, who claimed to be such a traditionalist should have gone by the old rule that when you're on your way out and you're the champion, you drop the belt to who the promoter tells you to. Nicely Put
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Post by Todd Pettengill on Jun 23, 2011 14:01:25 GMT -5
Bret screwed Bret.
You get hired to get fired. (Mark Madden, lol)
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Jun 23, 2011 15:00:34 GMT -5
The way I look at it is that Bret didn't want to drop the belt to Shawn. Given Shawn's childish and arrogant ways, especially with him refusing to drop the belt I can see why Bret didn't want to.
Had it been someone like Taker, Shamrock, or even Vader I doubt Bret would've refused to job. It just so happened that it was Shawn he was asked to job to.
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Post by Citizen Zero on Jun 23, 2011 15:09:09 GMT -5
The way I look at it is that Bret didn't want to drop the belt to Shawn. Given Shawn's childish and arrogant ways, especially with him refusing to drop the belt I can see why Bret didn't want to. Had it been someone like Taker, Shamrock, or even Vader I doubt Bret would've refused to job. It just so happened that it was Shawn he was asked to job to. Well...quite frankly that's tough s***. I work with plenty of arrogant douches at work and I have to suck it up and deal with it.
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riseofsetian1981
King Koopa
"I met him fifteen years ago. I was told there was nothing left."
Posts: 10,323
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Post by riseofsetian1981 on Jun 23, 2011 15:24:53 GMT -5
The way I look at it is that Bret didn't want to drop the belt to Shawn. Given Shawn's childish and arrogant ways, especially with him refusing to drop the belt I can see why Bret didn't want to. Had it been someone like Taker, Shamrock, or even Vader I doubt Bret would've refused to job. It just so happened that it was Shawn he was asked to job to. Well...quite frankly that's tough s***. I work with plenty of arrogant douches at work and I have to suck it up and deal with it. Of course, but at our jobs we don't have creative control in our contracts. Wrestling and the jobs that you and I have are two completely different worlds, you know?
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Honeybear Lyder
ALF
It's called a title match, dammit! I'll fire your ass, dammit! Get me a snowcone, dammit!
Posts: 1,154
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Post by Honeybear Lyder on Jun 23, 2011 15:41:33 GMT -5
Shawn. In his book he tells that Vince was going to let the match end in a DQ, but then Shawn and Trips talked him into doing the screwjob.
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Legion
Fry's dog Seymour
Amy Pond's #1 fan
Hail Hydra!
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Member is Online
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Post by Legion on Jun 23, 2011 15:55:45 GMT -5
Well...quite frankly that's tough s***. I work with plenty of arrogant douches at work and I have to suck it up and deal with it. Of course, but at our jobs we don't have creative control in our contracts. Wrestling and the jobs that you and I have are two completely different worlds, you know? But the point I think alot of people are making is that Bret claims to be a traditionalist and claims to really respect the wrestling business and what it stands for.....but then he wanted to use his creative control to leave the company looking the best he could, during a period when his boss, and by all accounts his friend, Vince McMahon was going bust and had all of 2 stars left. While Vince was dumb to let things get as far as he did, Bret was simply selfish to ever demand such a thing and, as someone who claimed to be a traditionalist, who was brought up in wresting and who, ironically enough, didnt want the apparently selfish HBK being the one to beat him, he should never have asked for such a silly result and should have done the right thing in laying down on the way out.
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Post by "Handsome" Whitey Fats on Jun 23, 2011 16:13:03 GMT -5
He wasn't screwed' at all. The notion that someone is 'screwed' during the course of a predetermined event which is always determined by the promoter by having an ending determined by the promoter is ridiculous. It's like Leonardo DiCaprio holding a grudge against James Cameron for killing him off in Titanic. Last minute script change that one of the performers wasn't told about. That's all. I mean, what did Bret expect to happen? That Vince would allow the guy soon to go to WCW to beat the one remaining star he had left? Did you really expect the promoter to just have Bret walk out the next night, relinquish his title and stroll out into the WCW sunset leaving the meagre WWF wrestlers to compete for the scraps. Even if you think Vince did the wrong thing, anyone that dumb and naive as Bret was to think ANY promoter would allow anything like that to happen, deserves all that's coming to him in respect of any unpalatable ending to his WWF tenure. You wonder how someone brought up in the business could be so monumentally idiotic to think it would happen. It'd be like someone cast to play the role of Herod actually thinking it's possible the script would end up casting him as the good guy. it just boggles the mind that he could have been so dumb about the whole thing. +1
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Jun 23, 2011 16:29:46 GMT -5
The way I look at it is that Bret didn't want to drop the belt to Shawn. Given Shawn's childish and arrogant ways, especially with him refusing to drop the belt I can see why Bret didn't want to. Had it been someone like Taker, Shamrock, or even Vader I doubt Bret would've refused to job. It just so happened that it was Shawn he was asked to job to. Well...quite frankly that's tough s***. I work with plenty of arrogant douches at work and I have to suck it up and deal with it. And a lot of jobs you DON'T have to work with someone who puts you in a hostile work environment. Listen Bret just didn't wake up and say I hate Shawn, cross his arms and sit on the title in the corner like a pouting child like a lot of people seem to believe. He WAS willing to work with Shawn. Shawn made a point of telling Bret he wouldn't work with him and made a point to tell Bret he wouldn't give a rub to anybody who was friends with Bret's, specifically Shamrock or Austin. Hell, Bret didn't just decide to go to WCW, Bischoff had offered him money for over a year prior. Vince is the one who told him to go because Vince couldn't pay him long term like he had signed. So it wasn't even a surprise sprung on Vince. Yes a lot of people are forced to do jobs on the way out and Bret was willing to do so, however there is also precedence of people not doing the jobs when told to. Hogan hand picked all of his big match opponents and even notoriously changed finishes to matches he wasn't involved in. Hogan had to win his belt off Sheik because Backlund wouldn't drop to Hogan. In his own life, Tom Billington refused to hand a belt he couldn't defend to Bret from his hospital bed, and refused to job that belt to Shiek and Volkooff finally agreeing to drop it in a shitty match he had to literally be carried into by Davey Boy to the Harts. That's the business Bret grew up in too and that's the business Vince McMahon ran. I think Vince screwed Bret and its only because he had to screw somebody and Bret was easy pickings. The years of bags of money pouring in had come to an end and he had for too long let the inmates run the asylum. People talk about how over-rated Bret was but in reality he's under-rated now. Bret was receiving the most fan mail of any wrestler by 1988 when the Mega-powers were at their peak and kayfabe existed, as a heel. that's why Vince started his turn by Mania 4. Think about that at the height of Savage's career and while Hulkamania was in full swing and when the Ultimate Warrior had started to take off Bret was the fan's favorite, not just the smarks as the anti-smarks would have you believe. So taken his popularity and his loyalty Vince probably didn't think having a creative control clause was a bad idea. Indeed Bischoff offered it to a lot of his top performers. So its not like creative control was unique to Hart/Vince, most champions during territory days had some form of creative control. However times were changing for Vince, and he had to finally step up and put his foot down. He couldn't risk having another Ultimate Warrior or worse any member of the clique getting a whiff of Bret's contract and wanting one for themselves. If Shawn Micheals had gotten creative control when asked to lose to Austin at Mania he would not have.
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Post by Stupidstuff on Jun 23, 2011 16:37:29 GMT -5
At that time there was really no way that Vince could let Bret leave for WCW without being beat for the title. I don't think what Vince did was right, but at the time WCW was killing WWF in the ratings, and not only that, they were giving away results for RAW, they had Alundra Blaze throw the women's title in the trash can and basically anything they could do to hurt the WWF. Bret wanted to retain the title and then forfeit it on RAW and Vince couldn't let that happen. Even if he didn't show up on Nitro with the belt, I'm sure Eric Bischoff would have played up the fact that Bret was the real WWF champion since no one beat him on his way out. Vince really had his back up against the wall, and had to what was best for his company.
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Post by Bob Schlapowitz on Jun 23, 2011 16:40:43 GMT -5
At this point in time, when all involved have long since buried the hatchet, does it really even matter anymore who "screwed" Bret?
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Altabane
Unicron
Burying People For Free
Posts: 3,155
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Post by Altabane on Jun 23, 2011 16:41:02 GMT -5
Undertaker, because he wasn't backstage taping his fists.
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Post by "Handsome" Whitey Fats on Jun 23, 2011 16:41:09 GMT -5
It's too bad Julie Hart isn't an option. A friend of mine in high school always used to should "Julie screwed Bret, watch Wrestling With Shadows, you'll see!!" So there you have it. It was Julie who screwed Bret.... She has not aged well She was kinda cute in the early pics in Bret's book
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Post by ritt works hard fo da chickens on Jun 23, 2011 16:48:41 GMT -5
At this point in time, when all involved have long since buried the hatchet, does it really even matter anymore who "screwed" Bret? Not really and I am glad they all get along now because I really do like all the players, but it seems to me a lot of people are still reciting the anti-Bret propaganda, when even Vince and Shawn have basically said that although they don't regret it they did go out of there way to screw Bret.
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The Ichi
Patti Mayonnaise
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Post by The Ichi on Jun 23, 2011 16:50:01 GMT -5
At this point in time, when all involved have long since buried the hatchet, does it really even matter anymore who "screwed" Bret? Even if the hatchet didn't get buried, I'll never understand why this is still a big talking point almost 14 years later. - Some think Vince screwed Bret - Some think Bret screwed Bret - Some think HBK/HHH screwed Bret - Some think nobody was in the right (where I stand on the issue) And not a single person's mind is going to be changed. What is there to even discuss anymore?
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