AdamAFL was sooooo wrong
Hank Scorpio
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Post by AdamAFL was sooooo wrong on Mar 6, 2012 9:52:55 GMT -5
I agree with your argument pretty much entirely. The Cena promo on the last week before The Rock turned up was fantastic I thought even if his argument is a bit flawed. I do disagree with Cena being as good on the mic as Jericho though. Cena can be good when he puts his mind to it and stops with the "big foot's diaper" bullshit, but he's still not Jericho level for my money.
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Tiger Maskooo
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Post by Tiger Maskooo on Mar 6, 2012 9:53:42 GMT -5
Keep in mind that this is John Cena we're talking about, not Billy Gunn. Whether or not you support his argument (I think it's got a lot of flaws myself), he's at least on par with Jericho as far as mic skill Nah. Jericho has had so many more memorable things on the mic that i'll see quoted. Besides theres alot of things he can attack cena for. I mean while he's pointed out how much cena's movies have sucked,I dont think he's brought up how he gets parts in mainstream movies while if cenas in a movie its because wwe films made it. He could really rip alot more on how cena's appropiated black and military culture. He could even get more into how the crowd hates him by bringing up how he gets booed at pratically every wrestlemania and about every time they go to msg...probably the most important places to get booed. He could really milk how he's been at the top of one of the worst drawing eras since the new generation. I mean even the things he's said he could milk for alot more. There's alot of material. He just doesnt use it because he wants to make him look on his level.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Mar 6, 2012 9:57:43 GMT -5
I want Rock to bring up the disaster that was "Manhunt" on UPN and call Cena "Big Tim".
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Post by joebob27 on Mar 6, 2012 10:02:12 GMT -5
Keep in mind that this is John Cena we're talking about, not Billy Gunn. Whether or not you support his argument (I think it's got a lot of flaws myself), he's at least on par with Jericho as far as mic skill Nah. Jericho has had so many more memorable things on the mic that i'll see quoted. Besides theres alot of things he can attack cena for. I mean while he's pointed out how much cena's movies have sucked,I dont think he's brought up how he gets parts in mainstream movies while if cenas in a movie its because wwe films made it. He could really rip alot more on how cena's appropiated black and military culture. He could even get more into how the crowd hates him by bringing up how he gets booed at pratically every wrestlemania and about every time they go to msg...probably the most important places to get booed. He could really milk how he's been at the top of one of the worst drawing eras since the new generation. I mean even the things he's said he could milk for alot more. There's alot of material. He just doesnt use it because he wants to make him look on his level. No, I think Cena can go, especially when this is as tightly guarded as this is. The Jericho/Rock promos should be a perfect template for these. Instead we try to leech heat unto Cena again, except the people they're trying to leech unto him DON'T WANT TO. They want to see the Rock. That's the difference in your WM buys right there. Core audience is still going to watch either way. WWE just will not let things flow. They screwed up Nexus, they screwed up the birth of CM Punk: Face ME'er (and only got it back on his talent, nothing of their work), and now they're going to bring back the Rock, and then attempt to tick off his fan base. It's just awful booking. And this week you could see it's 100% booking. I mean the guy that gave that cracked out Paul Revere promo can't cut it live? ROTFL. People were probably sitting thinking "oh yeah, here we go!" and then they have him cut THAT. Instead he gets a promo they could have given Brock Lesnar or any other big tweener who isn't that good of a speaker.
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Post by Dr. Bunsen Honeydew on Mar 6, 2012 10:14:40 GMT -5
Nah. Jericho has had so many more memorable things on the mic that i'll see quoted. Besides theres alot of things he can attack cena for. I mean while he's pointed out how much cena's movies have sucked,I dont think he's brought up how he gets parts in mainstream movies while if cenas in a movie its because wwe films made it. He could really rip alot more on how cena's appropiated black and military culture. He could even get more into how the crowd hates him by bringing up how he gets booed at pratically every wrestlemania and about every time they go to msg...probably the most important places to get booed. He could really milk how he's been at the top of one of the worst drawing eras since the new generation. I mean even the things he's said he could milk for alot more. There's alot of material. He just doesnt use it because he wants to make him look on his level. No, I think Cena can go, especially when this is as tightly guarded as this is. The Jericho/Rock promos should be a perfect template for these. Instead we try to leech heat unto Cena again, except the people they're trying to leech unto him DON'T WANT TO. They want to see the Rock. That's the difference in your WM buys right there. Core audience is still going to watch either way. WWE just will not let things flow. They screwed up Nexus, they screwed up the birth of CM Punk: Face ME'er (and only got it back on his talent, nothing of their work), and now they're going to bring back the Rock, and then attempt to tick off his fan base. It's just awful booking. And this week you could see it's 100% booking. I mean the guy that gave that cracked out Paul Revere promo can't cut it live? ROTFL. People were probably sitting thinking "oh yeah, here we go!" and then they have him cut THAT. Instead he gets a promo they could have given Brock Lesnar or any other big tweener who isn't that good of a speaker. So what if it is booked? It's wrestling show. It's supposed to be booked. And what they are doing is working, no matter how much you try to deny it. And the line about Wrrestlemaina buys? Nonsense. People are going to buy Wrestlemania because The Rock is going to wreslte, one on one, for the time in almost a decade. Period. The build up doesn't matter in that regard and only matter to the core audience, who is going to buy it anyway as you said. And again, they want a 50/50 crowd. Giving in to what you want will never accomplish that. Never. What they are doing is starting to get them to the 50/50 goal that they want. It is clearly beginning to work. Will it get them all the way there? Probably not but even 55/45 would be damn good. It is very obvious that you aren't getting what YOU want, so you will do everything to convince yourself that WWE is wrong and "screwing it up" because of it.
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Post by joebob27 on Mar 6, 2012 10:18:26 GMT -5
No, I think Cena can go, especially when this is as tightly guarded as this is. The Jericho/Rock promos should be a perfect template for these. Instead we try to leech heat unto Cena again, except the people they're trying to leech unto him DON'T WANT TO. They want to see the Rock. That's the difference in your WM buys right there. Core audience is still going to watch either way. WWE just will not let things flow. They screwed up Nexus, they screwed up the birth of CM Punk: Face ME'er (and only got it back on his talent, nothing of their work), and now they're going to bring back the Rock, and then attempt to tick off his fan base. It's just awful booking. And this week you could see it's 100% booking. I mean the guy that gave that cracked out Paul Revere promo can't cut it live? ROTFL. People were probably sitting thinking "oh yeah, here we go!" and then they have him cut THAT. Instead he gets a promo they could have given Brock Lesnar or any other big tweener who isn't that good of a speaker. So what if it is booked? It's wrestling show. It's supposed to be booked. And what they are doing is working, no matter how much you try to deny it. And the line about Wrrestlemaina buys? Nonsense. People are going to buy Wrestlemania because The Rock is going to wreslte, one on one, for the time in almost a decade. Period. The build up doesn't matter in that regard and only matter to the core audience, who is going to buy it anyway as you said. And again, they want a 50/50 crowd. Giving in to what you want will never accomplish that. Never. What they are doing is starting to get them to the 50/50 goal that they want. It is clearly beginning to work. Will it get them all the way there? Probably not but even 55/45 would be damn good. It is very obvious that you aren't getting what YOU want, so you will do everything to convince yourself that WWE is wrong and "screwing it up" because of it. I'm going to type it real big so you understand. THEY CAN'T GET A 50/50 CROWD WITHOUT COSTING THEMSELVES MONEY. AND EVEN STUPIDER THAN THAT, THEY ARE PAYING SOMEONE BIG BUCKS TO GET A 50/50 CROWD AND THEN LOSE MONEY. This is like sub-WCW level business thinking. They are PAYING an outside worker to do this. Think of the freaking insanity of that. It's not like "well, CM Punk is kinda popular, let's leech his popularity off on Cena, even though his crowd cheers for him for different reasons, it doesn't matter, we're paying him the same either way." They probably threw millions of dollars at the guy for this. Work 10 days, drain your heat, so we can have Edward vs. Jacob for men, when the guy you're facing is running 50/50 with psychotic wheelchair cripple tossing, rapist, murdering pyromaniac Kane.
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Tiger Maskooo
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Post by Tiger Maskooo on Mar 6, 2012 10:22:45 GMT -5
You'll be lucky if you get 95/5. It's the rocks hometown. John Cena almost always gets booed at mania. The people still cheered rock after both promos in the past two weeks. Plus I think this needs to be reinterated. It's the rocks hometown.
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Post by joebob27 on Mar 6, 2012 10:23:04 GMT -5
What they need to do is stop trying to FORCE it. If it's in the cards, it will happen. If it isn't, well then wasn't this a monumentally dumb idea. But hey, at least you'll maximize the money you make off of it.
It's not about what I watch, shit, I work late Monday nights, I can't even watch the end of the show most of the time. It's just that it flies in the face of decent wrestling booking/writing/business.
It's one of those things where you think "What the f*** could they honestly be thinking here?" Like inserting Kevin Nash into Punk's ascension into main eventhood.
I'd guess you thought that was a great idea too.
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Post by joebob27 on Mar 6, 2012 10:25:39 GMT -5
You'll be lucky if you get 95/5. It's the rocks hometown. John Cena almost always gets booed at mania. The people still cheered rock after both promos in the past two weeks. Plus I think this needs to be reinterated. It's the rocks hometown. I think he means at regular shows and in a TV sense/marketing/merchandising sense. He's on crack if he thinks it'll be 50/50 at the PPV. Still not going to happen that way either, unless they make the Rock as unappealing as humanly possible, without turning heel, which would make him more appealing. They could try, but like I said the only path to that on a weekly TV basis is apathy. Turning off the crowd that came to see the Rock.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2012 10:34:18 GMT -5
Meh - I think we're just seeing what happens when the writers don't protect the Rock like Mr. Glass. There are a myriad of wrestlers who could go toe-to-toe with the Rock on the mic, but will never get the chance because protecting the Rock is too important financially. Make the Rock look bad - you lose money. It is smart, but also makes it difficult to get the fans to accept anyone other than the Rock as a hero....so, its a win some/lose some scenario.
Outside of that, the entire Rock/Cena feud has been so annoying that I can't wait for it to be over. Its not the the fact that its the Rock & Cena either, its honestly just a boring story to me.
"Rock, you left and never came back! Boo-hoohohohoooohoohoo" "Cena, you're an [insert food item] jabroni who only has kids and girls as fans!"
Wow - compelling. So basically nothings really at stake and the real story of the match is that OMIGOD ITS THE ROCK!!!! zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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kidglov3s
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Post by kidglov3s on Mar 6, 2012 10:47:40 GMT -5
Keep in mind that this is John Cena we're talking about, not Billy Gunn. Whether or not you support his argument (I think it's got a lot of flaws myself), he's at least on par with Jericho as far as mic skill Nah. Jericho has had so many more memorable things on the mic that i'll see quoted. Besides theres alot of things he can attack cena for. I mean while he's pointed out how much cena's movies have sucked,I dont think he's brought up how he gets parts in mainstream movies while if cenas in a movie its because wwe films made it. He could really rip alot more on how cena's appropiated black and military culture. He could even get more into how the crowd hates him by bringing up how he gets booed at pratically every wrestlemania and about every time they go to msg...probably the most important places to get booed. He could really milk how he's been at the top of one of the worst drawing eras since the new generation. I mean even the things he's said he could milk for alot more. There's alot of material. He just doesnt use it because he wants to make him look on his level. WWE to audience: "It's not that The Rock's not on John Cena's level. It's that he's not on the level below him."
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Post by Clash, Never a Meter Maid on Mar 6, 2012 10:56:19 GMT -5
It also goes both ways, notice when Rock went on about how big he was and how he was gonna rip Cena's throat out, they shot from an angle and Cena was standing in a way that made Rock look much bigger than him? Totally scripted 1,000% I never said any of this was unintentional or that it wasn't scripted. My only point was that a bulk of this is due to Cena doing a good job with his promos. I think a lot of us are overlooking how much this is on the back of the wrestlers themselves, even if they aren't ad-libbing. A line on a script requires a good performer to truly make it work, and if WWE were attempting to put Evan Bourne on Rock's level promo wise by using the tactics they are with Cena, it would undebatably backfire big time and WWE's desperation would be even more glaring. WWE is polishing something, but they're polishing a ruby, not a turd.
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Post by Dr. Bunsen Honeydew on Mar 6, 2012 11:11:41 GMT -5
You'll be lucky if you get 95/5. It's the rocks hometown. John Cena almost always gets booed at mania. The people still cheered rock after both promos in the past two weeks. Plus I think this needs to be reinterated. It's the rocks hometown. 1. It isn't going to be 95/5. Why? Because of where the "Rock's hometown" argument falls a little flat. You are forgetting that people travel from all over the world to see Wrestlemania which makes it unique from any other event during the year. So, the crowd isn't going to be 100% from Miami and the surrounding area. Rock isn't going to have as much of an advantage as you think. So Cena has plenty of minds to convert. 60/40 is very possible if they continue down the path they have been going the past 3 weeks. 2. Two weeks ago was in Portland. Rock never appeared there as they never ran Portland when Rock was around full time so that one is an exception. This week in Boston starts to show my point. As I said in another post, Compare the crowd from last night to the one a week before Survivor Series. Cena got booed heavily the first time. This time the booing was subdued enough for the cheers to be heard. As for The Rock, he got heavily cheered the last time? This time? The cheers were more subdued and people even started chanting against him. The fans are slowly starting to turn on The Rock.
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Post by highfivessteve on Mar 6, 2012 11:16:40 GMT -5
I wonder if they'll play heavily into the fact that the fans turned on Rock in 2002 in big-time matches (Hogan, Brock, etc.)
This is awesome and entertaining and can see a Cena turn for the fact that the fans started being receptive to him once he became "edgy" and "cool" again.
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Post by Dr. Bunsen Honeydew on Mar 6, 2012 11:18:57 GMT -5
I wonder if they'll play heavily into the fact that the fans turned on Rock in 2002 in big-time matches (Hogan, Brock, etc.) This is awesome and entertaining and can see a Cena turn for the fact that the fans started being receptive to him once he became "edgy" and "cool" again. Certainly possible, but something I don't think WWE Creative would think of.
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Post by salsashark on Mar 6, 2012 11:20:02 GMT -5
My problem with the Rock is always destroying Cena perspective is that it reeks of being a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Cena wins = Rock let him win Rock wins = Rock just did what he does so well
As in, going by this logic, there's no chance that Cena can genuinely win. Also, obviously the shows are scripted and whatever, but when Rock made his big return last year with that great promo on Cena, no one went "THIS DIALOGUE IS ALL JUST SCRIPTED!!" and instead commended Rock for his verbal talents and perspective and telling it how it is on Cena. In this case, Rock supporters always win.
Why can't it ever be
Cena wins = Cena just did what he does so well Rock wins = Rock just did what he does so well
or
Cena wins = Rock let him win Rock wins = Cena let him win
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Post by Dr. Bunsen Honeydew on Mar 6, 2012 11:25:09 GMT -5
So what if it is booked? It's wrestling show. It's supposed to be booked. And what they are doing is working, no matter how much you try to deny it. And the line about Wrrestlemaina buys? Nonsense. People are going to buy Wrestlemania because The Rock is going to wreslte, one on one, for the time in almost a decade. Period. The build up doesn't matter in that regard and only matter to the core audience, who is going to buy it anyway as you said. And again, they want a 50/50 crowd. Giving in to what you want will never accomplish that. Never. What they are doing is starting to get them to the 50/50 goal that they want. It is clearly beginning to work. Will it get them all the way there? Probably not but even 55/45 would be damn good. It is very obvious that you aren't getting what YOU want, so you will do everything to convince yourself that WWE is wrong and "screwing it up" because of it. I'm going to type it real big so you understand. THEY CAN'T GET A 50/50 CROWD WITHOUT COSTING THEMSELVES MONEY. AND EVEN STUPIDER THAN THAT, THEY ARE PAYING SOMEONE BIG BUCKS TO GET A 50/50 CROWD AND THEN LOSE MONEY. This is like sub-WCW level business thinking. They are PAYING an outside worker to do this. Think of the freaking insanity of that. It's not like "well, CM Punk is kinda popular, let's leech his popularity off on Cena, even though his crowd cheers for him for different reasons, it doesn't matter, we're paying him the same either way." They probably threw millions of dollars at the guy for this. Work 10 days, drain your heat, so we can have Edward vs. Jacob for men, when the guy you're facing is running 50/50 with psychotic wheelchair cripple tossing, rapist, murdering pyromaniac Kane. You obviously read nothing I posted. So let me try again: THEY ARE NOT COSTING THEMSELVES ANY MONEY BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE ALREADY ORDERING IT DUE TO THE FACT THE ROCK IS WRESTLING ONE ON ONE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN NEARLY A DECADE!!!!!!!!! Their current booking of this match does NOTHING to their bottom line because the match is already sold. What their booking is doing is trying to get the crowd close to the way they want it.
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Tiger Maskooo
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Post by Tiger Maskooo on Mar 6, 2012 11:32:25 GMT -5
You'll be lucky if you get 95/5. It's the rocks hometown. John Cena almost always gets booed at mania. The people still cheered rock after both promos in the past two weeks. Plus I think this needs to be reinterated. It's the rocks hometown. 1. It isn't going to be 95/5. Why? Because of where the "Rock's hometown" argument falls a little flat. You are forgetting that people travel from all over the world to see Wrestlemania which makes it unique from any other event during the year. So, the crowd isn't going to be 100% from Miami and the surrounding area. Rock isn't going to have as much of an advantage as you think. So Cena has plenty of minds to convert. 60/40 is very possible if they continue down the path they have been going the past 3 weeks. 2. Two weeks ago was in Portland. Rock never appeared there as they never ran Portland when Rock was around full time so that one is an exception. This week in Boston starts to show my point. As I said in another post, Compare the crowd from last night to the one a week before Survivor Series. Cena got booed heavily the first time. This time the booing was subdued enough for the cheers to be heard. As for The Rock, he got heavily cheered the last time? This time? The cheers were more subdued and people even started chanting against him. The fans are slowly starting to turn on The Rock. 1.Theyre also likely there to see the rock wherever theyre from because this is rocks first singles match in years. Plus john cena always pretty much gets booed at mania. Though youre right it wont be 95/5. It'll be 98/2. That's being generous. It's the rock dude. 2.they also didnt boo rock.
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Post by Dr. Bunsen Honeydew on Mar 6, 2012 11:36:59 GMT -5
1. It isn't going to be 95/5. Why? Because of where the "Rock's hometown" argument falls a little flat. You are forgetting that people travel from all over the world to see Wrestlemania which makes it unique from any other event during the year. So, the crowd isn't going to be 100% from Miami and the surrounding area. Rock isn't going to have as much of an advantage as you think. So Cena has plenty of minds to convert. 60/40 is very possible if they continue down the path they have been going the past 3 weeks. 2. Two weeks ago was in Portland. Rock never appeared there as they never ran Portland when Rock was around full time so that one is an exception. This week in Boston starts to show my point. As I said in another post, Compare the crowd from last night to the one a week before Survivor Series. Cena got booed heavily the first time. This time the booing was subdued enough for the cheers to be heard. As for The Rock, he got heavily cheered the last time? This time? The cheers were more subdued and people even started chanting against him. The fans are slowly starting to turn on The Rock. 1.Theyre also likely there to see the rock wherever theyre from because this is rocks first singles match in years. Plus john cena always pretty much gets booed at mania. Though youre right it wont be 95/5. It'll be 98/2. That's being generous. It's the rock dude. 2.they also didnt boo rock. 1. You are going to be in for a shock when it isn't anywhere close to 95/5. It has never been 95/5 and it sure as hell wasn't 95/5 the last time they were in Miami during Rock's birthday. 2. They may not have booed, but they are clearly getting tired of him because they aren't cheering him anymore like they were.
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Tiger Maskooo
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Post by Tiger Maskooo on Mar 6, 2012 11:45:16 GMT -5
1.Theyre also likely there to see the rock wherever theyre from because this is rocks first singles match in years. Plus john cena always pretty much gets booed at mania. Though youre right it wont be 95/5. It'll be 98/2. That's being generous. It's the rock dude. 2.they also didnt boo rock. 1. You are going to be in for a shock when it isn't anywhere close to 95/5. It has never been 95/5 and it sure as hell wasn't 95/5 the last time they were in Miami during Rock's birthday. 2. They may not have booed, but they are clearly getting tired of him because they aren't cheering him anymore like they were. 1.I'd be shocked if it was as low as 95/5 dude. 2.I dont know,his exit pop seemed loud to me.
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