TheDieselTrain
Fry's dog Seymour
Chicks Dig Hootie.
Is Stone Cold gonna have to smack a bitch?? WHAT!!!?????
Posts: 23,724
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Post by TheDieselTrain on Nov 7, 2011 5:50:29 GMT -5
....is everyone ignoring the Booker feud? You guys are crazy if you think thats more on The Rock and not Vince being petty against all things WCW
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BHB
Hank Scorpio
Posts: 5,778
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Post by BHB on Nov 7, 2011 6:08:20 GMT -5
....is everyone ignoring the Booker feud? You guys are crazy if you think thats more on The Rock and not Vince being petty against all things WCW Exactly. Booker was a big star for WCW and is pretty much THE example of Vince squashing a WCW star until he can rebuild them as a WWE star. I think that more has to do with HHH's timing, he always beats the guys when they are hot and need to keep winning. The Rock lost to guys like Angle, RVD, HHH and Foley when the time was right. How many times does HHH magically start fueding with the hottest guy in the company? Look at Orton a few years ago and CM Punk this year, if you want to go back you can use RVD in '03 as an example and Jericho in 2000. They are on winning streaks and almost completely established as main eventers(well Orton was already established, but it would have made him a white hot heel) and then all of a sudden HHH comes in and says screw that, no one becomes a bigger start than me. I mean the guy hadn't wrestled since Wrestlemania and all of a sudden comes out of nowhere to fight CM Punk, just to beat him after Cena put him over huge. Don't even get me started about RVD and of course Booker T. Excellent point, funny how that always seems to happen
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2011 8:08:46 GMT -5
Before WM 19, the Rock was scheduled to face Booker T on Raw. On the night of the show, the match was changed to Rock/Hurricane. The reason given on the net was that The Rock was scheduled to lose to Booker, but did not want to lose to him if Booker was just going to lose to HHH at WM (thus making the Rock's loss pointless) so he decided to put over Hurricane instead. Of course, after WM 19, HHH beat Hurricane for no reason and Hurricane's win over The Rock was shortly forgotten. Nothing, and I mean nothing The Rock or anyone has done compares to HHH in 2002-03. Nothing.
The Rock should not be grouped into any category with HHH. For one thing, Rock was a huge money draw for the company, while HHH has been pushed despite not being one. Rock became bigger than the company, and the only other guy to be bigger than the company was Hogan. Rock would job a lot. Way too much for a main eventer. He worked with everyone. Only HHH wishes he could be grouped into any category with The Rock.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Nov 7, 2011 8:30:56 GMT -5
if we're talking burials...........why not mention 80's hogan? that dude NEVER lost clean Hogan didn't bury people in the 80's. He's been laid out, stretchered out and injured plenty of times. He'd be injured for a while and eventually come back, still selling the injury ie. the taped ribs. He always made the guys he were feuding with look strong before he mounted his big comeback. Just because he didn't lose clean doesn't mean he buried people. This. The monster heels that Hogan faced in the 80's whether it be Bundy, Kamala, Andre, Earthquake were made to look unstoppable. When you consider Andre could barely move by the late 80's, making him look invincible was no small feat.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2011 10:48:11 GMT -5
Hogan didn't bury people in the 80's. He's been laid out, stretchered out and injured plenty of times. He'd be injured for a while and eventually come back, still selling the injury ie. the taped ribs. He always made the guys he were feuding with look strong before he mounted his big comeback. Just because he didn't lose clean doesn't mean he buried people. This. The monster heels that Hogan faced in the 80's whether it be Bundy, Kamala, Andre, Earthquake were made to look unstoppable. When you consider Andre could barely move by the late 80's, making him look invincible was no small feat. Agreed. One thing many people do, and I guess there is no avoiding it as the fanbase gets younger, is using today's standards to judge the past. Just because we live in an even steven booking landscape today (where Cena could lose 100 matches and no one would care) doesn't mean it was like that in the 80's or 90's. Hogan's character couldn't lose. Why would Vince book his main star to lose at all if they were making so much money from him winning? When Hogan lost the belt to Andre in 1988, it had 33 million viewers, and I'd imagine the majority of them (me included) were absolutely stunned. It meant something. Wins and losses mattered in the 80's, so Hogan losing was a huge deal. If he traded the title with Piper and Orndorff 10 times before losing to Andre, how much would that moment have meant? Watch a Hogan promo from the 80's. Behind all the over-the-top style was Hogan hyping the hell out of his opponent. Whether he was facing Mr. Perfect or Hercules, he would make sure he put over his opponent in the promo. While you do that, watch a Hogan match from the 80's. The man would sell for 75% of it. That is what made his comeback meaningful. I remember someone, I think Jake, in a shoot saying "if you make a guy look like a piece of shit and then beat him, the fans will think you beat a piece of shit" (paraphrasing there). HHH makes his opponents look like shit, especially when he is a babyface, which is why no one cares about his matches. People remember Hogan/Rock and Shawn/Taker, but probably couldn't recall three spots from HHH/Jericho or HHH/Orton. He buries his opponents on the mic and in the ring to the point where people just don't care. Hogan never did that. Rock never did that. Austin never did that. And so on. That is what seperates a draw from whatever HHH is (an overpushed highly overrated performer?).
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KLRA
El Dandy
Halt. I am Reptar.
Posts: 7,591
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Post by KLRA on Nov 7, 2011 13:30:17 GMT -5
Foley was the one that said "if you make a guy look like a piece of s*** and then beat him, the fans will think you beat a piece of s***" in his book the Hardcore Diaries and it was very, very obvious the he was directing it right at HHH.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2011 13:41:33 GMT -5
Yeah, Foley makes sense. I thought Jake Roberts said something similar too, but either way I agree with that logic completely. HHH can't make his opponents look good, or at least on par with himself (with Batista being a main exception).
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Post by cabbageboy on Nov 7, 2011 14:28:40 GMT -5
Yeah, I wouldn't say Hogan buried people. A burial in some ways presumes that a guy that isn't that big of a deal unjustly screws over someone that could get over. Hogan was THE MAN in the WWF. This was not in question. He was not losing the belt to these guys. So once that framework is established Hogan could safely put monster heels over as a big time threat to the belt, make these guys look good, and then eventually beat these guys.
That said, I tend to agree with the notion that The Rock buried people. It wasn't a backstage politics deal though. Rock would flat out cut promos saying he thought someone sucked. It was his character actually, a trash talking new age babyface that belittled opponents. That sort of thing is actually why I don't consider Rock one of the best promos ever in wrestling. He has never made me want to see him wrestle __________. He mostly badmouthed opponents and talked about how bad they sucked.
If you look at old school Hogan stuff where had got you stoked for his title match, or Flair stuff where he would put his opponents over something fierce (but of course he was just THAT much better)...that stuff is better than a Rock promo. Flair or Hogan would act like Billy Gunn had a chance. Rock skewered him and made you know Billy Gunn had no chance. He drew money in spite of himself.
Or how about Lawler back in the heyday of Memphis? I saw a promo on youtube where Lawler hyped a match against some masked bum (Super Destroyer or someone). Destroyer had busted Lawler open earlier on the show and the match was stopped, so now Lawler came back out with a bandage and cut a very low key promo. At first he mentioned his disappointment in seeing his team, the Cleveland Browns, lose an OT game to the Broncos the previous week, then related it to an old black lady talking to him outside the Midsouth Coliseum. This lady said "King, I hate to see you lose or get beaten up, because when you hurt...I hurt." Lawler then did the hard sell of "I disappointed everyone earlier, but I am going to go to Eddie Marlin and ask for a rematch against the Super Destroyer, and this time I won't let you down."
Seriously, that was an awesome promo. It almost had me in tears by the end it was so amazing. Do you think The Rock could cut that promo or make anyone care about him facing some masked jobber? I doubt it.
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BigWill
Bill S. Preston, Esq.
Posts: 16,619
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Post by BigWill on Nov 7, 2011 14:43:45 GMT -5
The thing is, telling people off on the mic is what Rock does. It's what got him so massively over. I suppose the WWE could have toned it down a bit and made some of the lesser talent look better in comparison, but in return they'd be pretty much neutering one of the top faces of the company. Does that sound like a fair trade?
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Ben Wyatt
Crow T. Robot
Are You Gonna Go My Way?
I don't get it. At all. It's kind of a small horse, I mean what am I missing? Am I crazy?
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Post by Ben Wyatt on Nov 7, 2011 15:50:43 GMT -5
The thing is, telling people off on the mic is what Rock does. It's what got him so massively over. I suppose the WWE could have toned it down a bit and made some of the lesser talent look better in comparison, but in return they'd be pretty much neutering one of the top faces of the company. Does that sound like a fair trade? It wouldnt be so bad, if some of these guys looked good in the process. Gunn for example: Have him beat the Rock at Summerslam, then get his win back at the next PPV. At least make the guy look credible. The way that feud played out had Rock making Gunn look like an ass, then beating him fairly easily
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giffyjames
Bubba Ho-Tep
we'll be back!!
Posts: 620
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Post by giffyjames on Nov 7, 2011 18:28:29 GMT -5
if we're talking burials...........why not mention 80's hogan? that dude NEVER lost clean Hogan never buried anybody in the 80s. He was THE draw of the company. His name became bigger then the WWF itself, and sold out house shows and PPVs for years. Besides, totally different era to compare. if hogan never buried anyone, then how come no one can name another world champ besides macho man when hogan was at his apex in wwf?
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Post by Tiger Millionaire on Nov 7, 2011 19:21:05 GMT -5
Hogan never buried anybody in the 80s. He was THE draw of the company. His name became bigger then the WWF itself, and sold out house shows and PPVs for years. Besides, totally different era to compare. if hogan never buried anyone, then how come no one can name another world champ besides macho man when hogan was at his apex in wwf? Because Vince McMahon knew his money maker, and those were the days of very long title reigns in general. In WWF just being in the ring with Hogan, who the heel dominated 90% of the match, was a rub. HHH does not, nor has he ever, held that star power on his own. Rock does. Austin does. Flair did, Race did. HHH didn't, yet because of his position, the WWE seems to view him, and try to present him as such, hence the burial viewpoint.
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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Nov 7, 2011 19:35:15 GMT -5
Hogan never buried anybody in the 80s. He was THE draw of the company. His name became bigger then the WWF itself, and sold out house shows and PPVs for years. Besides, totally different era to compare. if hogan never buried anyone, then how come no one can name another world champ besides macho man when hogan was at his apex in wwf? Warrior, Slaughter, and (until he sold it) Andre. That's three.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2011 21:00:15 GMT -5
Hogan never buried anybody in the 80s. He was THE draw of the company. His name became bigger then the WWF itself, and sold out house shows and PPVs for years. Besides, totally different era to compare. if hogan never buried anyone, then how come no one can name another world champ besides macho man when hogan was at his apex in wwf? 1) Long title reigns were the norm back then. Prior to Hogan, Backlund held it for five years. 2) Vince McMahon is not stupid. Hogan was the biggest star in wrestling and one of the biggest stars in pop culture at the time. People paid to see him win. Vince would have been foolish to take the belt off of him when business was as good as it was. 3) How was Hogan holding the title for four years "burying" anyone? He wrestled everyone under the sun. Those guys got huge paydays working with Hogan. There was a pecking order in the WWF, and everyone knew it. Once it was time to promote another babyface into the main event, Hogan had no issues working with them (Savage) or in the case of Warrior putting them over. 4) Who exactly was buried in the 80's due to Hogan? Let's face it, all Hogan had to do was sell for someone and that person became a star. Obviously once they were done with Hogan they had to move down in the card (Hogan was the top so everyone else was a rung below) but that is hardly burying anyone. In the Attitude Era, once you feuded with Austin, it was either The Rock or move down in the card. That is reality when you have an uber star.
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Post by Jedi-El of Tomorrow on Nov 7, 2011 21:03:17 GMT -5
Hogan never buried anybody in the 80s. He was THE draw of the company. His name became bigger then the WWF itself, and sold out house shows and PPVs for years. Besides, totally different era to compare. if hogan never buried anyone, then how come no one can name another world champ besides macho man when hogan was at his apex in wwf? Losing does not mean getting buried. Hogan faced a lot of heels, and made them look like a threat. Who didn't look like a threat when in the ring with Hogan? Hell the guy lost to one of the Rogeaus.
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Post by Cyno on Nov 7, 2011 21:20:52 GMT -5
Hogan never buried anybody in the 80s. He was THE draw of the company. His name became bigger then the WWF itself, and sold out house shows and PPVs for years. Besides, totally different era to compare. if hogan never buried anyone, then how come no one can name another world champ besides macho man when hogan was at his apex in wwf? Oh I can't wait to hear your thoughts on Bob Backlund, Pedro Morales, or especially Bruno Sammartino. Their reigns made the length of Hogan's look like a transitional champ. COMPLETELY different era of wrestling back then. Hogan's burying days didn't come until he came to WCW. His experiences with putting over Warrior, who turned out to be a crazy man, was a catalyst of that.
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Post by RowdyRobbyPiper on Nov 7, 2011 21:59:16 GMT -5
if hogan never buried anyone, then how come no one can name another world champ besides macho man when hogan was at his apex in wwf? Oh I can't wait to hear your thoughts on Bob Backlund, Pedro Morales, or especially Bruno Sammartino. Their reigns made the length of Hogan's look like a transitional champ. COMPLETELY different era of wrestling back then. Hogan's burying days didn't come until he came to WCW. His experiences with putting over Warrior, who turned out to be a crazy man, was a catalyst of that. 1. I can imagine younger fans moaning about Bruno "burying" Killer Kowalski. 2. Too many younger fans are judging Hogan solely on his WCW run, his return to WWE, and TNA. That is a good point about the aftermath of putting Warrior over. I can believe that would have driven Hogan to be protective about his spot.
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Post by HMARK Center on Nov 7, 2011 22:17:48 GMT -5
Plus, look back at the 80's; think of all the big stars fans of that era can rattle off. Think of how few of them held World Titles, or even held the IC belt. Fact is, back then, you didn't NEED a belt to become a big draw.
So, Hogan held the title through the vast majority of the era; yet ask any old school fan, and they'll have fond memories of nearly the entire roster back then, and consider nearly all of them credible to some degree.
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Post by angryfan on Nov 7, 2011 22:31:18 GMT -5
Oh I can't wait to hear your thoughts on Bob Backlund, Pedro Morales, or especially Bruno Sammartino. Their reigns made the length of Hogan's look like a transitional champ. COMPLETELY different era of wrestling back then. Hogan's burying days didn't come until he came to WCW. His experiences with putting over Warrior, who turned out to be a crazy man, was a catalyst of that. 1. I can imagine younger fans moaning about Bruno "burying" Killer Kowalski. 2. Too many younger fans are judging Hogan solely on his WCW run, his return to WWE, and TNA. That is a good point about the aftermath of putting Warrior over. I can believe that would have driven Hogan to be protective about his spot. Bingo. I'm no Hogan fan, never have been, but you have to separate WWF Hogan from WCW Hogan, because they're two totally different animals. Vince didn't ask Hulk to job much because Hogan was the golden goose and made him truckloads full of money every day. Hogan in WCW answered to no one, and when he did jobs the guy he jobbed to came out looking worse for it. Kidman is a prime example, whether you see him as a main eventer or not. Hulk "jobbed" but Kidman looked like a bitch the entire time, and that's what a burial is. He was talked down, beaten down, and fluked a win. I don't, oddly, now if I can blame Hogan for WCW, as much as I'd love to. He was given carte blanch, told he could do whatever the hell he wanted, whenever he wanted, and wound up holding the belt for close to THREE YEARS in a six year period simply because no one did what Vince did in WWF and said "this is happening, this is why".
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Post by Bob Schlapowitz on Nov 7, 2011 22:40:32 GMT -5
Hogan never buried anybody in the 80s. He was THE draw of the company. His name became bigger then the WWF itself, and sold out house shows and PPVs for years. Besides, totally different era to compare. if hogan never buried anyone, then how come no one can name another world champ besides macho man when hogan was at his apex in wwf? Because at that point in time the World Title didn't get passed around like a teenage groupie at a 1988 Poison concert, that's why.
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