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Post by eukaryote on Mar 15, 2012 12:29:45 GMT -5
It's, obviously, easier said than done. It's a nice message to tell kids to "say no" to peer pressure but when it actually comes to a scenario in which they are facing peer pressure, how many kids are actually going to say "no" to their friends? Some might but I daresay the majority won't. Again, you can coddle your child, care for your child, support your child as much you as can but you cannot control every aspect of their lives. Sometimes good parents have bad kids; sometimes bad parents have good kids. Blaming it on the parents is a knee-jerk reaction and is not founded in reason. There's nothing knee-jerk about it. It is simple logic to me. Now this is a very reductive analogy, but stick with me. If you think you're a master cobbler and you produce a pair of crappy shoes, you're not a master cobbler. The results dictate the label. The results here are irresponsible, idiotic children, so that means the parenting was not sufficient. That's not an appropriate analogy. A master cobbler is obviously someone who is very skilled at what they do; someone who has taken it upon themselves to master their craft and, obviously, they become better and better at it over time, so for one to produce a bad pair of shoes would mean that either (a) they have given up or (b) have suffered trauma to their brains and no longer possess the skill. Parenting isn't really equatable because no two children are the same. You can give advice based on your own experiences but nothing will prepare you. All you can do as a parent is to ensure that it is in an environment that supports it and provides for it. You cannot oversee or control every avenue of its life and that includes friends. My parents loved my friends and thought they were nice kids and yet, we were all smoking pot and drinking by the age of 13 or 14. I don't think I could have asked for better parents and yet, on occasion, I would be driven home in the back of a police car - why? Because I was a teenager and it's what teens do. If you think good parenting automatically equates to a good kid, you'll have to explain the ubiquity of good parents who produce bad children and bad parents who produce good children.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 12:33:38 GMT -5
There's nothing knee-jerk about it. It is simple logic to me. Now this is a very reductive analogy, but stick with me. If you think you're a master cobbler and you produce a pair of crappy shoes, you're not a master cobbler. The results dictate the label. The results here are irresponsible, idiotic children, so that means the parenting was not sufficient. That's not an appropriate analogy. A master cobbler is obviously someone who is very skilled at what they do; someone who has taken it upon themselves to master their craft and, obviously, they become better and better at it over time, so for one to produce a bad pair of shoes would mean that either (a) they have given up or (b) have suffered trauma to their brains and no longer possess the skill. Parenting isn't really equatable because no two children are the same. You can give advice based on your own experiences but nothing will prepare you. All you can do as a parent is to ensure that it is in an environment that supports it and provides for it. You cannot oversee or control every avenue of its life and that includes friends. My parents loved my friends and thought they were nice kids and yet, we were all smoking pot and drinking by the age of 13 or 14. I don't think I could have asked for better parents and yet, on occasion, I would be driven home in the back of a police car - why? Because I was a teenager and it's what teens do. If you think good parenting automatically equates to a good kid, you'll have to explain the ubiquity of good parents who produce bad children and bad parents who produce good children. Your critique of my cobbler analogy drives home my original point. Parents who raise crappy kids shouldn't consider themselves good parents. Good parents cannot produce bad children. Good parents are aware of the environment and work to educate their children about how to handle (beyond, "Just say no.") They don't control their children, they give them the information to make responsible choices and illustrate consequences, etc etc so on and so forth. As far as bad parents who produce good children, my guess would be the parents weren't the ones actually raising the child ... probably another, more involved parental figure did the actual rearing. Anecdotally speaking, I was a teenager and was never driven home in a police car, drank or did drugs.
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Post by eukaryote on Mar 15, 2012 12:43:54 GMT -5
Your critique of my cobbler analogy drives home my original point. Parents who raise crappy kids shouldn't consider themselves good parents. Of course they can - they simply have bad kids. Again, you can do everything you possibly can to ensure that your child has a wonderful life and they can still turn out to be bad seeds, because they found themselves in among a bad crowd or have found social influences elsewhere. Exactly, that's all they can do. A good parent is any parent who ensures that they direct their child to make appropriate decisions, while supporting them and providing for them. Yet, if the child finds itself influenced by outside elements, they can easily find themselves in trouble. No, there are children born to broken homes who manage to develop into reasonable, thoughtful kids, presumably because they are forced to adapt and mature quicker than children who don't have to deal with problematic home lives. Okay.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 12:46:19 GMT -5
Your critique of my cobbler analogy drives home my original point. Parents who raise crappy kids shouldn't consider themselves good parents. Of course they can - they simply have bad kids. Again, you can do everything you possibly can to ensure that your child has a wonderful life and they can still turn out to be bad seeds, because they found themselves in among a bad crowd or have found social influences elsewhere. Exactly, that's all they can do. A good parent is any parent who ensures that they direct their child to make appropriate decisions, while supporting them and providing for them. Yet, if the child finds itself influenced by outside elements, they can easily find themselves in trouble. No, there are children born to broken homes who manage to develop into reasonable, thoughtful kids, presumably because they are forced to adapt and mature quicker than children who don't have to deal with problematic home lives. Okay. Yeah, well, I think we're just looking at it from two different perspectives. To me, either you have the sufficient skills to raise a kid properly or you don't. Yes there are societal factors that come into play, but I contend that good parenting can trump those factors. I understand where you're coming from, but just disagree - I think its best we leave at that as we've reached a bit of an impasse.
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Post by eukaryote on Mar 15, 2012 12:55:31 GMT -5
To me, either you have the sufficient skills to raise a kid properly or you don't. Yes there are societal factors that come into play, but I contend that good parenting can trump those factors. I have to reiterate that you cannot sufficiently prepare to raise a child. You can only do the best that you can do - support the child, provide for the child, love the child etc. but you cannot control the outside influences that will also condition and direct their behaviour and choices.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 12:59:43 GMT -5
To me, either you have the sufficient skills to raise a kid properly or you don't. Yes there are societal factors that come into play, but I contend that good parenting can trump those factors. I have to reiterate that you cannot sufficiently prepare to raise a child. You can only do the best that you can do - support the child, provide for the child, love the child etc. but you cannot control the outside influences that will also condition and direct their behaviour and choices. Cool.
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Post by Michael Coello on Mar 15, 2012 13:07:41 GMT -5
It's probably safe to assume not many people here have seen Project X. The same as those guys who watch Scarface, but don't seem to know how it ended?
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Tarik Dee
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I loved you before I even ever knew what love was like
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Post by Tarik Dee on Mar 15, 2012 13:31:31 GMT -5
I hate teenagers, well, at least the majority, no matter what generation.
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deliridream
Trap-Jaw
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Post by deliridream on Mar 15, 2012 14:06:19 GMT -5
Numero99: Do you happen to be a parent by chance?
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Post by SenorCrest on Mar 15, 2012 14:19:34 GMT -5
This was in Houston. neat.
Also, did they drive a car into a pool? it doesnt say in the report.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 14:33:26 GMT -5
Numero99: Do you happen to be a parent by chance? Never in a million years would I become a parent.
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Post by Red Impact on Mar 15, 2012 14:36:42 GMT -5
Children associate with their peers more than their parents. There comes a point in many of their lives where they will follow the example set by their peers more than their parents. In that end, if a teenager behaves badly, it's far more likely to be an issue with their friends being stupid than their parents. As they say, one bad apple can ruin a whole bunch, well, one bad teen who other teens want to emulate can make large groups do stupid things.
It's easy to insult the parenting from afar, but it's not really rocket science to know that kids relate more with other kids than their parents. That's basic childhood in a nutshell.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 14:38:38 GMT -5
Children associate with their peers more than their parents. There comes a point in many of their lives where they will follow the example set by their peers more than their parents. In that end, if a teenager behaves badly, it's far more likely to be an issue with their friends being stupid than their parents. As they say, one bad apple can ruin a whole bunch, well, one bad teen who other teens want to emulate can make large groups do stupid things. It's easy to insult the parenting from afar, but it's not really rocket science to know that kids relate more with other kids than their parents. Children can be taught to think independently.
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Post by Red Impact on Mar 15, 2012 14:40:34 GMT -5
Children associate with their peers more than their parents. There comes a point in many of their lives where they will follow the example set by their peers more than their parents. In that end, if a teenager behaves badly, it's far more likely to be an issue with their friends being stupid than their parents. As they say, one bad apple can ruin a whole bunch, well, one bad teen who other teens want to emulate can make large groups do stupid things. It's easy to insult the parenting from afar, but it's not really rocket science to know that kids relate more with other kids than their parents. Children can be taught to think independently. And they can independently choose to do what their friends are doing rather than what their parents are trying to teach them to do.
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Post by eukaryote on Mar 15, 2012 14:40:35 GMT -5
Children associate with their peers more than their parents. There comes a point in many of their lives where they will follow the example set by their peers more than their parents. In that end, if a teenager behaves badly, it's far more likely to be an issue with their friends being stupid than their parents. As they say, one bad apple can ruin a whole bunch, well, one bad teen who other teens want to emulate can make large groups do stupid things. It's easy to insult the parenting from afar, but it's not really rocket science to know that kids relate more with other kids than their parents. Children can be taught to think independently. Of course, but again it's easier said than done. Children place great importance on their social stature and are thus willing to engage in activities that they'd rather not, simply to appease their friends and not run the risk of ostracizing themselves.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 14:45:16 GMT -5
Children can be taught to think independently. Of course, but again it's easier said than done. Children place great importance on their social stature and are thus willing to engage in activities that they'd rather not, simply to appease their friends and not run the risk of ostracizing themselves. Children can be taught to think for themselves. I'm not saying parenting is easy. It has to be very very very hard, which is one of the reasons I want nothing to do with it. But it can be done. Its done every day by competent parents.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 14:46:01 GMT -5
Children can be taught to think independently. And they can independently choose to do what their friends are doing rather than what their parents are trying to teach them to do. Sounds like bad parenting then. I guess 'bad' is the wrong word, more like ineffective.
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Post by eukaryote on Mar 15, 2012 14:54:19 GMT -5
Of course, but again it's easier said than done. Children place great importance on their social stature and are thus willing to engage in activities that they'd rather not, simply to appease their friends and not run the risk of ostracizing themselves. Children can be taught to think for themselves. I'm not saying parenting is easy. It has to be very very very hard, which is one of the reasons I want nothing to do with it. But it can be done. Its done every day by competent parents. I daresay the majority of kids are taught not to cave into peer pressure and yet a great many of them do because, being that kids suffer from myopia and don't consider the future, they worry about their current social standing and retaining the friends they have made. You are not a parent, by your own admission, and - with all due respect - it shows. It isn't black & white. Being a good parent does not mean that you will have good children; children's behaviour is constantly being influenced by outside elements, so simply having a loving parent isn't enough. Their choices, their behaviours are all dependent on a myriad of important factors, including who they choose to associate with.
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Post by Red Impact on Mar 15, 2012 14:56:23 GMT -5
And they can independently choose to do what their friends are doing rather than what their parents are trying to teach them to do. Sounds like bad parenting then. I guess 'bad' is the wrong work, more like ineffective. Less ineffective parenting and more basic psychology. But don't take my word for it, Here's a psychologist who's dealt with the issue in the past, with parents who have perfectly well adjusted kids along with children who act terribly. According to your theory, such a thing wouldn't exist. If parents raise good children, then all their parents should be good, and if they raise bad children, they all should be bad. But that's clearly not the case. Kids need to belong, they need to find their niche. That's very well studied and, to be honest, it's sort of delusional to act like parents have complete and total control over how their kids think. If the lessons their parents taught them hasn't filled that need for whatever reason, they'll do what they have to do get it. That's on their peers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 14:58:07 GMT -5
Children can be taught to think for themselves. I'm not saying parenting is easy. It has to be very very very hard, which is one of the reasons I want nothing to do with it. But it can be done. Its done every day by competent parents. I daresay the majority of kids are taught not to cave into peer pressure and yet a great many of them do because, being that kids suffer from myopia and don't consider the future, they worry about their current social standing and retaining the friends they have made. You are not a parent, by your own admission, and - with all due respect - it shows. It isn't black & white. Being a good parent does not mean that you will have good children; children's behaviour is constantly being influenced by outside elements, so simply having a loving parent isn't enough. Their choices, their behaviours are all dependent on a myriad of important factors, including who they choose to associate with. If you cannot instruct your child to mediate external influences appropriately, then its time to rethink your parenting style.
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