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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 15:01:34 GMT -5
Sounds like bad parenting then. I guess 'bad' is the wrong work, more like ineffective. Less ineffective parenting and more basic psychology. But don't take my word for it, Here's a psychologist who's dealt with the issue in the past, with parents who have perfectly well adjusted kids along with children who act terribly. According to your theory, such a thing wouldn't exist. If parents raise good children, then all their parents should be good, and if they raise bad children, they all should be bad. But that's clearly not the case. Kids need to belong, they need to find their niche. If the lessons their parents taught them hasn't filled that need for whatever reason, they'll do what they have to do get it. That's on their peers. Shouldn't their parents teach them lessons that fill that need or at least teach to responsibly find it elsewhere? But I do agree, that parents aren't to blame for outlier cases like psychological or genetically inherited social disorders.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Mar 15, 2012 15:03:29 GMT -5
My father's approach was : "If you EVER get into trouble, I'm going to kick your f***ing ass and throw you out of my f***ing house."
I never made trouble.
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Post by eukaryote on Mar 15, 2012 15:03:42 GMT -5
I daresay the majority of kids are taught not to cave into peer pressure and yet a great many of them do because, being that kids suffer from myopia and don't consider the future, they worry about their current social standing and retaining the friends they have made. You are not a parent, by your own admission, and - with all due respect - it shows. It isn't black & white. Being a good parent does not mean that you will have good children; children's behaviour is constantly being influenced by outside elements, so simply having a loving parent isn't enough. Their choices, their behaviours are all dependent on a myriad of important factors, including who they choose to associate with. If you cannot instruct your child to mediate external influences appropriately, then its time to rethink your parenting style. You're completely ignoring the fact that behaviour is conditioned and influenced by many different facets. You can teach a child that they shouldn't cave into peer pressure but it becomes a difficult situation when the child is with friends and those friends want him to partake in activities that may cause trouble - he faces a dilemma; does he say "no" and risk losing his social stature or does he say "yes" and retain the friends he has? For most children, the latter is the obvious choice, even if it is the incorrect one.
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Post by eukaryote on Mar 15, 2012 15:04:20 GMT -5
My father's approach was : "If you EVER get into trouble, I'm going to kick your f***ing ass and throw you out of my f***ing house." Pleasant.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 15:06:13 GMT -5
If you cannot instruct your child to mediate external influences appropriately, then its time to rethink your parenting style. You're completely ignoring the fact that behaviour is conditioned and influenced by many different facets. You can teach a child that they shouldn't cave into peer pressure but it becomes a difficult situation when the child is with friends and those friends want him to partake in activities that may cause trouble - he faces a dilemma; does he say "no" and risk losing his social stature or does he say "yes" and retain the friends he has? For most children, the latter is the obvious choice, even if it is the incorrect one. I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying - teach your kid how to handle those different facets and they'll - wait you're that same guy from eariler. Okay, hey look man, I'm not going to respond to you further on this one. Its not a sign of disrespect, but like I said earlier we'll just go round and round on this one so its best to nip it in the bud now.
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Post by eukaryote on Mar 15, 2012 15:09:54 GMT -5
You're completely ignoring the fact that behaviour is conditioned and influenced by many different facets. You can teach a child that they shouldn't cave into peer pressure but it becomes a difficult situation when the child is with friends and those friends want him to partake in activities that may cause trouble - he faces a dilemma; does he say "no" and risk losing his social stature or does he say "yes" and retain the friends he has? For most children, the latter is the obvious choice, even if it is the incorrect one. I'm not ignoring it, I'm saying - teach your kid how to handle those different facets and they'll - wait you're that same guy from eariler. Okay, hey look man, I'm not going to respond to you further on this one. Its not a sign of disrespect, but like I said earlier we'll just go round and round on this one so its best to nip it in the bud now. You really think that parenting is as simple as teaching your child to do something and they'll do it?
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Post by Red Impact on Mar 15, 2012 15:11:53 GMT -5
Less ineffective parenting and more basic psychology. But don't take my word for it, Here's a psychologist who's dealt with the issue in the past, with parents who have perfectly well adjusted kids along with children who act terribly. According to your theory, such a thing wouldn't exist. If parents raise good children, then all their parents should be good, and if they raise bad children, they all should be bad. But that's clearly not the case. Kids need to belong, they need to find their niche. If the lessons their parents taught them hasn't filled that need for whatever reason, they'll do what they have to do get it. That's on their peers. Shouldn't their parents teach them lessons that fill that need or at least teach to responsibly find it elsewhere? But I do agree, that parents aren't to blame for outlier cases like psychological or genetically inherited social disorders. If they had siblings who were perfectly well adjusted, then it shows that the parents did have an environment and did teach them enough to fill those needs. The only other explanation was that they had a completely opposite parenting style for that sibling than for the others, and that's just illogical. And here's the problem with your second statement, those kids had no diagnosed genetic disorders. They didn't have mental defects. They just acted differently from their siblings, who were perfectly well-adjusted. No matter how much you try to insist that it's true, parents don't have complete control over how their children think. As children get older, they interact more and more with kids their own age through school, and as a result, less with their parents. Parents can lay the seed, and it's not wrong to say that there are good parents and bad parents, but a child's peers become more and more important as they get older. As the psychologist in the story said, Whether you want to believe that you know more than the person with the knowledge and the experience in the field is up to you, but I think they're far more compelling than the hypothetical scenarios of cobblers.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 15:14:29 GMT -5
Shouldn't their parents teach them lessons that fill that need or at least teach to responsibly find it elsewhere? But I do agree, that parents aren't to blame for outlier cases like psychological or genetically inherited social disorders. If they had siblings who were perfectly well adjusted, then it shows that the parents did have an environment and did teach them enough to fill those needs. The only other explanation was that they had a completely opposite parenting style for that sibling than for the others, and that's just illogical. And here's the problem with your second statement, those kids had no diagnosed genetic disorders. They didn't have mental defects. They just acted differently from their siblings, who were perfectly well-adjusted. No matter how much you try to insist that it's true, parents don't have complete control over how their children think. As children get older, they interact more and more with kids their own age through school, and as a result, less with their parents. Parents can lay the seed, and it's not wrong to say that there are good parents and bad parents, but a child's peers become more and more important as they get older. As the psychologist in the story said, Actually its quite common. Parents always treat the baby different from the elder. Its pretty much a running theme in most family-based literature, film and TV.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 15:15:40 GMT -5
My father's approach was : "If you EVER get into trouble, I'm going to kick your f***ing ass and throw you out of my f***ing house." I never made trouble. Pft, I've seen your ass, it looks plenty kicked in.
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Post by Red Impact on Mar 15, 2012 15:16:39 GMT -5
If they had siblings who were perfectly well adjusted, then it shows that the parents did have an environment and did teach them enough to fill those needs. The only other explanation was that they had a completely opposite parenting style for that sibling than for the others, and that's just illogical. And here's the problem with your second statement, those kids had no diagnosed genetic disorders. They didn't have mental defects. They just acted differently from their siblings, who were perfectly well-adjusted. No matter how much you try to insist that it's true, parents don't have complete control over how their children think. As children get older, they interact more and more with kids their own age through school, and as a result, less with their parents. Parents can lay the seed, and it's not wrong to say that there are good parents and bad parents, but a child's peers become more and more important as they get older. As the psychologist in the story said, Actually its quite common. Parents always treat the baby different from the elder. Its pretty much a running theme in most family-based literature, film and TV. Differently doesn't mean creating a completely different environment for a child. Being slightly more disciplinarian with the younger child doesn't account for a complete 180 in behavior. Sorry, the argument he makes is a lot more compelling than hypotheticals about cobblers.
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Post by eukaryote on Mar 15, 2012 15:16:51 GMT -5
If they had siblings who were perfectly well adjusted, then it shows that the parents did have an environment and did teach them enough to fill those needs. The only other explanation was that they had a completely opposite parenting style for that sibling than for the others, and that's just illogical. And here's the problem with your second statement, those kids had no diagnosed genetic disorders. They didn't have mental defects. They just acted differently from their siblings, who were perfectly well-adjusted. No matter how much you try to insist that it's true, parents don't have complete control over how their children think. As children get older, they interact more and more with kids their own age through school, and as a result, less with their parents. Parents can lay the seed, and it's not wrong to say that there are good parents and bad parents, but a child's peers become more and more important as they get older. As the psychologist in the story said, Actually its quite common. Parents always treat the baby different from the elder. Its pretty much a running theme in most family-based literature, film and TV. So you're taking what you see in film and TV over what a psychologist has to say?
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Allie Kitsune
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Always Feelin' Foxy.
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Mar 15, 2012 15:16:57 GMT -5
My father's approach was : "If you EVER get into trouble, I'm going to kick your f***ing ass and throw you out of my f***ing house." I never made trouble. Pft, I've seen your ass, it looks plenty kicked in. If that's a reference, I don't get it. Also, to back up what you said earlier, my grandparents raised my father MUCH differently than they raised their other two children (and they've said as much). That's why he ended up an anti-social person with a hair-trigger temper, and they ended up very well-adjusted.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 15:21:09 GMT -5
Actually its quite common. Parents always treat the baby different from the elder. Its pretty much a running theme in most family-based literature, film and TV. Differently doesn't mean creating a completely different environment for a child. Being slightly more disciplinarian with the younger child doesn't account for a complete 180 in behavior. I think using a completely different parenting style will create a different emotional environment for a child, and could possibly alter thier personality drastically. Yes.
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Sc
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Post by Sc on Mar 15, 2012 15:21:11 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 15:21:46 GMT -5
Pft, I've seen your ass, it looks plenty kicked in. If that's a reference, I don't get it. Also, to back up what you said earlier, my grandparents raised my father MUCH differently than they raised their other two children (and they've said as much). That's why he ended up an anti-social person with a hair-trigger temper, and they ended up very well-adjusted. I was just joking around about the first part, I haven't seen your ass.
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Post by Red Impact on Mar 15, 2012 15:31:22 GMT -5
Differently doesn't mean creating a completely different environment for a child. Being slightly more disciplinarian with the younger child doesn't account for a complete 180 in behavior. I think using a completely different parenting style will create a different emotional environment for a child, and could possibly alter thier personality drastically. Yes. But how do you know it's a completely different parenting style and not a slight alteration of how permissive or strict they are? Regardless, I'll be blunt, the people with experience in dealing with parents with this problem and with advanced psychological training disagree with you. You have hypotheticals, fictional tropes, anecdotes, and blanket statements that amount to saying that parents have complete control over how their children think regardless of what their peers say. If you want to believe you know more than them, be my guest, but it's perfectly obvious that we're not going to change each other's minds here so it's better to stop before we circle around completely.
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deliridream
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Post by deliridream on Mar 15, 2012 15:33:16 GMT -5
I suppose it's easy when you're not a parent to have such strong opinions about what it takes to be one. Speaking as a parent myself I can tell you that the only real thing you CAN do is to love your child and teach them right from wrong. You hope and pray that you have raised them well and that when they ARE faced with choices that they make the best one. What we as parents think is the best one and what the kids themselves think is the best one are oftentimes different because, as was stated, the here and now is what matters most to a child. We think of their futures, they usually don't. We don't particularly care what their friends/peers think of them, they care sometimes TOO much.
I haven't forgotten what it's like to be a kid though sadly I think some parents do. I know how tough it can be, but it's a necessary evil. I wish my child would never have to face peer pressure, bullies, closed mindedness or hatred, but she will and there's not a damn thing I can do to stop it from happening. I can be here when she needs me, I can give advice and life lessons. I can ensure she is being taken care of at home, but I can't guarantee that she will take care of herself when she isn't here. My voice can only say so much...the voice of her conscience has to say the rest.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2012 15:33:37 GMT -5
I think using a completely different parenting style will create a different emotional environment for a child, and could possibly alter thier personality drastically. Yes. But how do you know it's a completely different parenting style and not a slight alteration of how permissive or strict they are? Regardless, I'll be blunt, the people with experience in dealing with parents with this problem and with advanced psychological training disagree with you. You have hypotheticals, fictional tropes, anecdotes, and blanket statements that amount to saying that parents have complete control over how their children think regardless of what their peers say. If you want to believe you know more than them, be my guest, but it's perfectly obvious that we're not going to change each other's minds here so it's better to stop before we circle around completely. I agree, clearly I am not a golfer. Though, I never said parents have COMPLETE CONTROL over thier kids, kinda putting words in my mouth there. I said they can teach their kids to effectively mediate external influences.
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Post by Red Impact on Mar 15, 2012 15:40:04 GMT -5
But how do you know it's a completely different parenting style and not a slight alteration of how permissive or strict they are? Regardless, I'll be blunt, the people with experience in dealing with parents with this problem and with advanced psychological training disagree with you. You have hypotheticals, fictional tropes, anecdotes, and blanket statements that amount to saying that parents have complete control over how their children think regardless of what their peers say. If you want to believe you know more than them, be my guest, but it's perfectly obvious that we're not going to change each other's minds here so it's better to stop before we circle around completely. I agree, clearly I am not a golfer. Though, I never said parents have COMPLETE CONTROL over thier kids, kinda putting words in my mouth there. I said they can teach their kids to effectively mediate external influences. True, and maybe it is unfair to say you're going that far. But when you reject the notion that kids can independently reject their parents teachings in favor of their peers, I pretty much see no other way to take it. You're saying that parents have total influence over their kids and other kids have none, because that's the only way a child misbehaving could never be anything but the parent's fault. Afterall, it's bad parenting if a child ever does something bad, and your only response to the notion that children might choose to go with friends over what they were taught is "well, they should have been taught better," which pretty much does prove the notion that you think good parents have to have total control over their children's actions, because good parents could never have their children act independently in a "bad" way. It's not putting words in your mouth if that happens to be your entire argument.
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Post by Orange on Mar 15, 2012 15:40:17 GMT -5
This is all I could think of after reading some of the replies here Here's my summary of this discussion. Teenagers are ruining the world with their Hot Topic and hip hop music, it's absolutely fair to judge a whole generation based off of one generation, generalizations are only okay when they apply to the younger generation. Couple that with some nice logic thrown in by a couple members, and you have this discussion ;D
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