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Post by Wolf Hurricane on Jan 17, 2012 19:15:38 GMT -5
To be honest, that's sort of where the ball lies. Men (or certain men; I'm not one of them) look at CM Punk, an asshole who has throngs of fans cheering his name and women lined up to get with him, in spite of or as a result of him being a complete dick, and they think to themselves, "man, I wanna be that guy;" a man who does what he wants, says what he wants, and not only are there no consequences, but people love him for it. At least, that's my theory. So, people want to be like Stone Cold, DX, Orton, The Rock, and other hugely over wrestlers. Not trying to be an ass, I just don't see how that baffles people. There's sort of a different element, though. Everyone you mentioned were fighters; they fought Vince McMahon, the Undertaker, Triple H, the Ministry, the Corporation, Evolution, Legacy and each other. Punk hasn't really had a serious challenge, on the mic or in the ring since Cena, so comparatively he's just been burning ants with a magnifying glass. He's hurt by the lack of a serious heel or heel faction to go up against; there's no one who's really a challenge to him. You think anyone really buys Bill Lumbergh as a threat at all, let alone on the level that Vince was to Austin or the Rock?
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Post by rapidfire187 on Jan 17, 2012 19:16:30 GMT -5
Has there ever been a more unlikeable face than CM Punk is right now?? I mean the guy almost turned Johnny Ace face to me!! Punk's end promo did two things to me: 1) Make me feel sorry and bad for Johnny Ace - his mentions of hating being bullied and pushed around when he tries to do a good job honestly made me feel like everyone has been treating him like crap, he may seem a dumbass or a bit incapable, but he's just one of those guys who hears all the cruel crap said about him who tries to let it slide off his back peacefully but can't manage it. 2) Made me think "Yes, this is the Punk character I want to hear from," as he is an arse, but he's meant to be that tool who says straight up things without pandering to the audience too much. I may not agree with his assessment of Ace being a crap in ring worker (on the contrary actually!) but Punk's frustration/paranoia/anger in his promo gave him an aura of bad-ass cool which he's lacked lately. I've moaned about Punk being a bit of a moron in the past few weeks with no redeeming factors in his promos but tonight he got a bit of cool back. So I like what both guys did, shades of grey ahoy. I agree with you somewhat, but I think people are overlooking one important thing. Punk isn't just being mean to Johnny Ace because he's boring or sucks at his job, it's because he's biased. Not only is he biased, but he tries to pretend that he's impartial. The ways that he's been screwing Punk have all been very passive. I think this is maybe flying over some fans' heads because usually the authority figure in these storylines are blatantly biased. It's similar to how a certain news organization in the US is accused of being biased, but they always claim to be impartial. That sort of thing can breed some real resentment and that's why Punk's anger is justified IMO. Also, let's not forget that Punk hasn't laid a finger on him. He has only given him shit verbally and threatened to kick his ass if he screws him out of his title. Honestly, besides being a little on the harsh side, I think Punk is reacting like a completely normal person.
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Post by AztecaDragon on Jan 17, 2012 19:16:31 GMT -5
To be honest, that's sort of where the ball lies. Men (or certain men; I'm not one of them) look at CM Punk, an asshole who has throngs of fans cheering his name and women lined up to get with him, in spite of or as a result of him being a complete dick, and they think to themselves, "man, I wanna be that guy;" a man who does what he wants, says what he wants, and not only are there no consequences, but people love him for it. At least, that's my theory. I understood it. I just didn't think the end-all character for CM Punk was set to "complete douche." Nor do I think framing it as "BUT THAT APPEALS TO ADULT MEN!" sounds any better. It sounds insincere. I know being an unrepentant jackalope is appealing to some people in general, I just don't like the talk of it being universal because again...that just sounds like someone projecting.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2012 19:17:59 GMT -5
I groaned. I was hoping we were past the "OMG worked shoot" shock value nonsense with Punk, but considering how successful he's been as a conventional top babyface (which is to say, middling at best), I suppose they've decided to try what worked the first time around. When you start having people talk onscreen about how a wrestler was unsuccessful because he was uncharismatic and boring, pretty much the only people who are going to give a damn are those nerds on the internet who hang around message boards talking about which wrestlers are uncharismatic and boring. And hey, I'm one of them too. But for everyone else, for the people who actually want to immerse themselves in the product and be entertained for reasons other than the backstage gossip, for the people who aren't salivating at the prospect of WWE becoming more like Ring of Honor because they've never even heard of Ring of Honor because the very concept of pro wrestling focusing on rather staid nonentities who know lots of holds instead of on characters and storylines sounds completely unappealing, I can't see "shoots" like this doing anything but taking them out of the action and telling them to change the channel if they want to watch some form of entertainment that doesn't need to break the fourth wall to be entertaining. I understand you and agree to a certain extent. The same things bother me in Punk's interviews, I hate hearing a wrestler go with "you're boring and uncharismatic". 'Charisma' has become just an awful word in wrestling, because it's a nebulous concept that can be defined in numerous ways, leading to overuse and misuse. Not to mention that such terms used in a certain way break kayfabe by nature. Kayfabe, there shouldn't be any "charisma" requirement to win wrestling matches/titles etc. Plus, its up to the fans to decide who's charismatic and who's not, you can't just tell us that. As for the "shoots don't get the public's attention" idea, that sure wasn't true in July 2011. Its really hard for a fan who's immersed in the product to predict what a non-fan/casual fan thinks is cool in wrestling.
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Post by Kitty Shamrocks on Jan 17, 2012 19:20:39 GMT -5
So, people want to be like Stone Cold, DX, Orton, The Rock, and other hugely over wrestlers. Not trying to be an ass, I just don't see how that baffles people. There's sort of a different element, though. Everyone you mentioned were fighters; they fought Vince McMahon, the Undertaker, Triple H, the Ministry, the Corporation, Evolution, Legacy and each other. Punk hasn't really had a serious challenge, on the mic or in the ring since Cena, so comparatively he's just been burning ants with a magnifying glass. He's hurt by the lack of a serious heel or heel faction to go up against; there's no one who's really a challenge to him. You think anyone really buys Bill Lumbergh as a threat at all, let alone on the level that Vince was to Austin or the Rock? Hah, I guess you have a point. I feel like that's what they were going for when they started the mini "Summer of Punk" thing they had going, but it just kinda floundered off into a match with HHH and Nash somehow?! Yeah, he really does need something big to go against, I agree. Maybe we'll get something out of Johnny.
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Allie Kitsune
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Post by Allie Kitsune on Jan 17, 2012 19:29:12 GMT -5
So, people want to be like Stone Cold, DX, Orton, The Rock, and other hugely over wrestlers. Not trying to be an ass, I just don't see how that baffles people. There's sort of a different element, though. Everyone you mentioned were fighters; they fought Vince McMahon, the Undertaker, Triple H, the Ministry, the Corporation, Evolution, Legacy and each other. Punk hasn't really had a serious challenge, on the mic or in the ring since Cena, so comparatively he's just been burning ants with a magnifying glass. He's hurt by the lack of a serious heel or heel faction to go up against; there's no one who's really a challenge to him. You think anyone really buys Bill Lumbergh as a threat at all, let alone on the level that Vince was to Austin or the Rock? I sometimes think if anybody else cut the style of promo that Punk cuts, they'd get excoriated for going into business for themselves and flat out telling the audience "YOU SHOULDN'T CARE ABOUT THIS GUY! GET HIM OUT OF MY COMPANY!"
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Post by "I'm Batman..." on Jan 17, 2012 19:32:57 GMT -5
I think it was a good promo. Laurinaitis has been messing with punk (un)intentionally for a while now. He then comes out and turns over the decision for the match. Punk got (legit) upset about it, and started going off on him. He's obviously going to attack him personally, because he (punk) felt he was too.
How many times do we see that happen in sports with referees and umpires?
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Post by I am Jack's STD on Jan 17, 2012 20:40:10 GMT -5
I agree with you somewhat, but I think people are overlooking one important thing. Punk isn't just being mean to Johnny Ace because he's boring or sucks at his job, it's because he's biased. Not only is he biased, but he tries to pretend that he's impartial. The ways that he's been screwing Punk have all been very passive.Such as? The one instance I can think of is distracting the ref by being at ringside and having the ref send Vicki to the back while Punk had Swagger (or was it Ziggler?) pinned. Either way Punk was taking the fall in that match, from Vicki's interference or Johnny Ace's subsequent interference. Punk's gone the subtle burn route with Ace before, with the video package at the Slammys and such, but this one was over-the-top. Not to say I didn't enjoy the promo, I'm just sayin' that Mr. Excitement really looks to be in the right this time. Hell, if he wanted to sell the whole heel thing, he should've Future Endeavored Mick after Punk left. But he didn't. He got mad and hit him with a microphone. I'm in the "Laurinitis Deserves Our Sympy" Camp.
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Post by Perpetual Nirvana on Jan 17, 2012 20:41:59 GMT -5
How is that ironic? Please explain. He's a "Heel" so he's just going to say that everyone "we" like sucks. I thought that was Lizuka's job.
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Post by canceled4truth on Jan 17, 2012 20:56:11 GMT -5
I agree with you somewhat, but I think people are overlooking one important thing. Punk isn't just being mean to Johnny Ace because he's boring or sucks at his job, it's because he's biased. Not only is he biased, but he tries to pretend that he's impartial. The ways that he's been screwing Punk have all been very passive.Such as? The one instance I can think of is distracting the ref by being at ringside and having the ref send Vicki to the back while Punk had Swagger (or was it Ziggler?) pinned. Either way Punk was taking the fall in that match, from Vicki's interference or Johnny Ace's subsequent interference. Punk's gone the subtle burn route with Ace before, with the video package at the Slammys and such, but this one was over-the-top. Not to say I didn't enjoy the promo, I'm just sayin' that Mr. Excitement really looks to be in the right this time. Hell, if he wanted to sell the whole heel thing, he should've Future Endeavored Mick after Punk left. But he didn't. He got mad and hit him with a microphone. I'm in the "Laurinitis Deserves Our Sympy" Camp. Let's see here, Ace: -rehired Nash, who screwed over Punk on several occasions -reinstated Miz and Truth, who also screwed over Punk on several occasions -put him in a tag team match w/ Del Rio knowing full well that Del Rio would abandon him and leave Miz and Truth to beat the piss out of him -tried to screw over Punk at Money in the Bank -admitted that he would screw over Punk at the Royal Rumble Why in the blue hell should anyone feel sympathy for this guy?
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Jan 17, 2012 21:03:03 GMT -5
Ace tried to screw him at MITB, fire him the next night on RAW, didn't give him his rematch for the title like he did ADR and screwed Punk in several match. That seems like plenty of motivation for hating him. You could easily explain those away by saying that: 1. He did what he did at MITB because Vince asked him to go to the timekeeper. 2. General incompetence. At least it seems like that was the direction they were going with that. a guy like Punk would find general incompetence extremely offensive, figuring there's probably a ton of people with good ideas who just didn't suck up enough kept out of a job by Ace.
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Post by rnrk supports BLM on Jan 17, 2012 21:03:35 GMT -5
As for the "shoots don't get the public's attention" idea, that sure wasn't true in July 2011. Oh, I unquestionably agree with you there... but when do diminishing returns set in? Bret Hart snapping and ranting about the bullshit of being held down in favor of Shawn Michaels in early '97 was shocking and unlike anything that'd been seen in WWF before. By a couple years later, when the very same bookers, Russo and Ferrara, tried pulling the same stunts in WCW, no one gave a damn and the whole thing just felt desperate and embarassing. No one saw CM Punk's first shoot coming, and it got fans talking. By a few months later, it'd practically become a part of Punk's gimmick that he namedrops wrestlers and promotions not associated with WWE during his promos. Are fans going to continue to find this sort of thing exciting? I guess that's what we're going to find out. But if the main thing Punk has going for him is shock value, I can't see him holding onto his current spot for the long haul.
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Post by I am Jack's STD on Jan 17, 2012 21:05:08 GMT -5
Because all of his plans have backfired and he's not actively evil. I mean if he was pulling a Vince McMahon here, I'd be against him. But as it is, he's not going balls-out mean. He's being sneaky, but very ineffectively.
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Post by rapidfire187 on Jan 17, 2012 21:05:24 GMT -5
I agree with you somewhat, but I think people are overlooking one important thing. Punk isn't just being mean to Johnny Ace because he's boring or sucks at his job, it's because he's biased. Not only is he biased, but he tries to pretend that he's impartial. The ways that he's been screwing Punk have all been very passive.Such as? The one instance I can think of is distracting the ref by being at ringside and having the ref send Vicki to the back while Punk had Swagger (or was it Ziggler?) pinned. Either way Punk was taking the fall in that match, from Vicki's interference or Johnny Ace's subsequent interference. Punk's gone the subtle burn route with Ace before, with the video package at the Slammys and such, but this one was over-the-top. Not to say I didn't enjoy the promo, I'm just sayin' that Mr. Excitement really looks to be in the right this time. Hell, if he wanted to sell the whole heel thing, he should've Future Endeavored Mick after Punk left. But he didn't. He got mad and hit him with a microphone. I'm in the "Laurinitis Deserves Our Sympy" Camp. He also was responsible for Nash costing Punk the belt at Summerslam, and pulled down the ropes "accientally" just last week! Not to mention the way he's been trying to manipulate the HHH and Nash feud. Laurinitis hasnt been sympathetic at all. His first appearance on WWE TV was trying to screw Punk at MITB and he has consistently screwed with Punk ever since. Ace has the Power and Punk has his shit talking, how is Ace worse off? Also, Ace fired JR...he is definitely not a good man.
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Post by 01010010 01101001 01100011 on Jan 17, 2012 21:06:36 GMT -5
Since the "punk's promo" and "I wanted an ACE CRUSHA on Punk" threads have become the same topic, I merged them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2012 21:19:32 GMT -5
I don't need it explained that he's an asshole...I know that. That's why I dislike his character haha.
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mrjl
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Post by mrjl on Jan 17, 2012 21:25:43 GMT -5
Such as? The one instance I can think of is distracting the ref by being at ringside and having the ref send Vicki to the back while Punk had Swagger (or was it Ziggler?) pinned. Either way Punk was taking the fall in that match, from Vicki's interference or Johnny Ace's subsequent interference. Punk's gone the subtle burn route with Ace before, with the video package at the Slammys and such, but this one was over-the-top. Not to say I didn't enjoy the promo, I'm just sayin' that Mr. Excitement really looks to be in the right this time. Hell, if he wanted to sell the whole heel thing, he should've Future Endeavored Mick after Punk left. But he didn't. He got mad and hit him with a microphone. I'm in the "Laurinitis Deserves Our Sympy" Camp. He also was responsible for Nash costing Punk the belt at Summerslam, and pulled down the ropes "accientally" just last week! Not to mention the way he's been trying to manipulate the HHH and Nash feud. Laurinitis hasnt been sympathetic at all. His first appearance on WWE TV was trying to screw Punk at MITB and he has consistently screwed with Punk ever since. Ace has the Power and Punk has his s*** talking, how is Ace worse off? Also, Ace fired JR...he is definitely not a good man. people don't seem to want to accept that Ace is the conspiracy mastermind unless he admits it.
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Post by Magic knows Black Lives Matter on Jan 17, 2012 21:26:21 GMT -5
I don't need it explained that he's an asshole...I know that. That's why I dislike his character haha. This.
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Post by Next Level was WRONG on Jan 17, 2012 22:44:44 GMT -5
I don't feel any sympathy for Ace. In fact, I would love to see Ryder, or Cena or hell even Miz get revenge on him. However, I just want to see someone beat the shit out of Punk. I want to see someone demolish him and it intensifies every time he talks. Especially every time he talks about how he "doesn't follow the rules" or "is unconventional" or "is a special, individual little snowflake".
An Ace Crusher would have been a slice of heaven.
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Beartato
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Post by Beartato on Jan 17, 2012 23:02:56 GMT -5
He's a "Heel" so he's just going to say that everyone "we" like sucks. I thought that was Lizuka's job. lmao
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